Grader Notes

[comicwiz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

 

CGC used to include "rusty staples" as a notation on the label. When they decided to change the labels, people started referencing these notations directly through graders notes.

 

The thing some people seem to be confused about is the fact that graders notes were free of charge, and bridged the gap created by CGC when they decided to remove those notations from the label.

 

Charging for them now has nothing to do with trade secrets or confidential company information that was never meant to be a part of their service - it always has been and is still an intrinsic part of the assessment component of their service which until now was never parted out like an accessory.

 

Agreed.

 

But at no point was it something you were contractually entitled to, nor was it ever formally offered as part of the service you received for your fee.

 

The fact that anybody could access the notes on your book seems to back this up.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you here Nick, but the possessive nature of graders notes is a side effect of CGC's decision to charge a fee. Before this, there was never a need for anyone to call for notes and tuck them away with their books for use when resale requirements arose.

 

At the very least, an announcement leading up to this change should have been a part of the planning, so people like me who have stopped submitting years ago and have a hundred or so slabs sitting around could have called for notes on my stash, and tucked them away with each book.

 

My guess is that the decision to charge was either half-baked or a desperate clawback which didn't allow for more careful consideration.

[Ghost Town]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

[Racer-X]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

 

can someone respond to this for me?

 

The downside?

 

They wouldn't earn any money from it.

 

I wouldn't call this a downside. I'd call it a lack of upside. That is, typing notes into a computer would seem to be part of their normal MO. Making those notes available to members would seem to cost (close to) $0. Even if they never offered up notes for free, I would think that charging for the notes is highly anti-customer - a snub in the face of your valued consumer. A blatant, callous dip into the pocket of your already-paying client-base.

 

I guess all I can say to CGC is: go ahead and charge while there's no other competitor around...

 

 

[comicwiz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

Why would CGC market a deficiency in their product/service?

 

In the context of the bakery example, a bakery wouldn't advertise they are using marzipan made in china and sold at the dollar store to offset labour costs, when everyone else makes it from scratch and does so to avoid being blamed for selling food containing lead, melamine, or other toxic contaminants usually traced back to goods produced in Asia.

 

You're out looking for Moby when all I've been saying is that we're buying rotten fish and consuming it like we don't have a choice.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

 

can someone respond to this for me?

 

The downside?

 

They wouldn't earn any money from it.

 

I wouldn't call this a downside. I'd call it a lack of upside. That is, typing notes into a computer would seem to be part of their normal MO. Making those notes available to members would seem to cost (close to) $0. Even if they never offered up notes for free, I would think that charging for the notes is highly anti-customer - a snub in the face of your valued consumer. A blatant, callous dip into the pocket of your already-paying client-base.

 

I guess all I can say to CGC is: go ahead and charge while there's no other competitor around...

 

 

Ah. Now, here's the thing...

 

A few years back, Steve Borock confirmed that one of the problems with grader's notes being made available on-line was that they weren't actually in a database and that the first step would be to go back to start to input everything they had graded up to that point.

 

Let's say that at some point, they decided to do that. Did they get the labour for free? Was it charitible work?

 

I'd figure not, so at some point, CGC perhaps began investing in man-hours to build a database for grader's notes.

 

If that was the case, are they not entitled to some payback?

[Comicopolis]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

No it's not, as there are specific laws relating to the production and selling of food that do not apply here - for obvious reasons.

 

A rusty staple might you off, but it isn't going to send you into anaphylactic shock.

 

A rusty staple might kill you.

[COI]

typing notes into a computer would seem to be part of their normal MO.

 

Most books (moderns) probably don't even have notes.

[Cat-Man_America]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

Roy hits a homer!

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

 

can someone respond to this for me?

 

The downside?

 

They wouldn't earn any money from it.

 

I wouldn't call this a downside. I'd call it a lack of upside. That is, typing notes into a computer would seem to be part of their normal MO. Making those notes available to members would seem to cost (close to) $0. Even if they never offered up notes for free, I would think that charging for the notes is highly anti-customer - a snub in the face of your valued consumer. A blatant, callous dip into the pocket of your already-paying client-base.

 

I guess all I can say to CGC is: go ahead and charge while there's no other competitor around...

 

 

Ah. Now, here's the thing...

 

A few years back, Steve Borock confirmed that one of the problems with grader's notes being made available on-line was that they weren't actually in a database and that the first step would be to go back to start to input everything they had graded up to that point.

 

Let's say that at some point, they decided to do that. Did they get the labour for free? Was it charitible work?

 

I'd figure not, so at some point, CGC perhaps began investing in man-hours to build a database for grader's notes.

 

If that was the case, are they not entitled to some payback?

 

 

Has anyone here ever gone to a library and had to look up books in a card catalog?

 

I can't imagine how much trouble it would be to store the grader's notes for a decade in some kind of paper form. They must have long long ago created a database on a computer, any paper system would take up too much space. Nobody would do that for long.

[COI]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

I've always thought the notes should be provided to the original submitter. If you're paying someone to evaluate something, it only makes sense that a rationale for that evaluation should be provided if, for no other reason than to give submitters the assurance that their book was given appropriate, non-arbitrary consideration, especially in light of the fact that CGC's grading guidelines are not made available to the public.

[Flaming_Telepath]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

Roy hits a homer!

 

[Cat-Man_America]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

It's more like ordering a cake and then asking if it has certain ingredients that someone has an allergy to are in the cake only to find out there is an additional fee to find out.

 

 

No it's not, as there are specific laws relating to the production and selling of food that do not apply here - for obvious reasons.

 

A rusty staple might you off, but it isn't going to send you into anaphylactic shock.

 

 

 

Unless you're an MD covered by my insurance I think I'll be seeking a second opinion!

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

I've always thought the notes should be provided to the original submitter. If you're paying someone to evaluate something, it only makes sense that a rationale for that evaluation should be provided if, for no other reason than to give submitters the assurance that their book was given appropriate, non-arbitrary consideration, especially in light of the fact that CGC's grading guidelines are not made available to the public.

 

Couldn't agree more. That would be a much better service.

 

However, it's not the service that was offered and it's not the service that was paid for.

 

What was paid for was a plastic case and a Big Number.

[Racer-X]

Why can't CGC type the notes into a database and ANY member can access ANY set of notes ANY time? How much more time or money would that take? What's the downside for CGC in doing that?

 

can someone respond to this for me?

 

The downside?

 

They wouldn't earn any money from it.

 

I wouldn't call this a downside. I'd call it a lack of upside. That is, typing notes into a computer would seem to be part of their normal MO. Making those notes available to members would seem to cost (close to) $0. Even if they never offered up notes for free, I would think that charging for the notes is highly anti-customer - a snub in the face of your valued consumer. A blatant, callous dip into the pocket of your already-paying client-base.

 

I guess all I can say to CGC is: go ahead and charge while there's no other competitor around...

 

 

Ah. Now, here's the thing...

 

A few years back, Steve Borock confirmed that one of the problems with grader's notes being made available on-line was that they weren't actually in a database and that the first step would be to go back to start to input everything they had graded up to that point.

 

Let's say that at some point, they decided to do that. Did they get the labour for free? Was it charitible work?

 

I'd figure not, so at some point, CGC perhaps began investing in man-hours to build a database for grader's notes.

 

If that was the case, are they not entitled to some payback?

 

That helps answer the question. It's pretty stunning to think they would NOT have entered notes into a database - I mean, come on! But IF they did make that grave error and NOT think to enter the notes into a computer (?), and now they have to pay to go back and do it right - then yes, of course it will cost money. That being said, I do still think that they should eat that cost and provide the notes to members. I know some of you don't. But I do.

[DrWatson]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

I've always thought the notes should be provided to the original submitter. If you're paying someone to evaluate something, it only makes sense that a rationale for that evaluation should be provided if, for no other reason than to give submitters the assurance that their book was given appropriate, non-arbitrary consideration, especially in light of the fact that CGC's grading guidelines are not made available to the public.

I agree.

 

The notes are part and parcel of what is being paid for by the submitter. It's a list of defects that quantify the big, fat fingh number in the upper left. That number has been paid for, therefore, so have the notes that gave it rise.

[Flaming_Telepath]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

I've always thought the notes should be provided to the original submitter. If you're paying someone to evaluate something, it only makes sense that a rationale for that evaluation should be provided if, for no other reason than to give submitters the assurance that their book was given appropriate, non-arbitrary consideration, especially in light of the fact that CGC's grading guidelines are not made available to the public.

I agree.

 

The notes are part and parcel of what is being paid for by the submitter. It's a list of defects that quantify the big, fat fingh number in the upper left. That number has been paid for, therefore, so have the notes that gave it rise.

 

So when somebody fixes your car, you bought the wrench, too?

[DrWatson]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

I've always thought the notes should be provided to the original submitter. If you're paying someone to evaluate something, it only makes sense that a rationale for that evaluation should be provided if, for no other reason than to give submitters the assurance that their book was given appropriate, non-arbitrary consideration, especially in light of the fact that CGC's grading guidelines are not made available to the public.

I agree.

 

The notes are part and parcel of what is being paid for by the submitter. It's a list of defects that quantify the big, fat fingh number in the upper left. That number has been paid for, therefore, so have the notes that gave it rise.

 

So when somebody fixes your car, you bought the wrench, too?

The submission of the car to the mechanic did not bring the wrench into existence. The wrench has other uses and is not specific to a specific repair. The notes are generated only by submission and are specific to one specific book. The notes can not exist in the absence of the submitted book.

[COI]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between what buyers want and what they're entitled to under the terms of service. The two aren't the same, people.

Yup. It's sort of like buying a cake from a bakery and saying you should also get the recipe free of charge.

 

Unless the bakery used to include the recipe, and then removed it, it is a poor analogy.

I always just saw the notes as a courtesy occasionally provided by CGC. That's why they've always limited the number of note requests somebody could make.

 

I have no idea how people have gotten the idea that sharing the notes are part of CGC's service. As far as I know, they've never advertised the service. They never listed it on their website until they decided to charge for the service.

 

Show me where CGC ever promised to make notes part of their normal service. They never have. It's presumptuous to think that you're entitled to the notes free of charge.

 

I've always thought the notes should be provided to the original submitter. If you're paying someone to evaluate something, it only makes sense that a rationale for that evaluation should be provided if, for no other reason than to give submitters the assurance that their book was given appropriate, non-arbitrary consideration, especially in light of the fact that CGC's grading guidelines are not made available to the public.

I agree.

 

The notes are part and parcel of what is being paid for by the submitter. It's a list of defects that quantify the big, fat fingh number in the upper left. That number has been paid for, therefore, so have the notes that gave it rise.

 

So when somebody fixes your car, you bought the wrench, too?

 

No, but you're entitled to the details of the service you received. Would anyone take their car in for scheduled maintenance and pay the bill without an understanding of what was actually done to the car?

[DrWatson]

A more proper analogy would be if I expected to receive the slabbing machine along with my graded book... the answer would be no.

[COI]

Here's another example: in college, when we submitted a paper, we got feedback to justify the grade. In the absence of that feedback, the grade could be appealed.