Grader Notes

[Racer-X]

You may not be entitled to get them, for free or for a cost. But, CGC is just as likely not entitled to sell that information to others.

 

That's possible--it'd likely be a part of property law, and I wouldn't be surprised if it varies by state. However, I doubt it--seems like car sales services like CarFax should have this all figured out and wouldn't be able to exist if what you're suggesting is the case. They somehow collect information about people's cars and sell it. I've never looked into that service, but I've always been curious about how they get their data on cars and what sorts of legal issues they face.

 

screw this debate. FF, that is the single most awesome lighting strike...EVER!

[Transplant]

Part of what I'm tired of discussing is bad analogies. Nobody said you have to disclose the engineering behind whatever manufacturing you did for someone.

 

But imagine if you were given a machine by a company and asked to make a replacement part for it. Are you now entitled to sell to that company's competitors a complete description of the inner workings and structure of that machine?

 

 

The engineering or the grader's notes are both the thought process/determinations used to obtain the end result. I don't see a problem with that analogy.

 

Your analogy about the machine isn't applicable to me. I'm never given the machine, just the specific part needing replaced. And depending upon the contracted services, I may indeed be able to give away or sell any information about that specific part if I own that information.

[crassus]

Part of what I'm tired of discussing is bad analogies. Nobody said you have to disclose the engineering behind whatever manufacturing you did for someone.

 

But imagine if you were given a machine by a company and asked to make a replacement part for it. Are you now entitled to sell to that company's competitors a complete description of the inner workings and structure of that machine?

 

I think you would if the original owner of the machine had not taken steps to protect their design with a patent or the equivalent. But while we can all claim clear and singular ownership over the individual comic we submit to CGC it is not clear that our book is unique in such a way as to have the same protections in law as an inventer does over their machine.

 

Put another way, part of what everyone wants from CGC is not simply an evaluation of the book but an assigned grade and designation (blue/purple or green) which is finally about what is *not* unique about your book, but what your book has in common with other books of the same grade and designation.

[Marty Mann]

I never called for notes...I didn't even know there was such a thing,

I just wanted some idea why my three GA books graded so low since

the ones before all came in around 5.0.

 

mm

[Tony S]

This conversation and the various analogies has become strange and off subject. The bottom line is that along with raising grading fees across the board and adding a $5 invoice fee CGC is now charging substantial coin for something that used to be free.

 

As the person submitting a book for grading, I feel I'm absolutely entitled to know what they saw that gave it the given grade. It's mutually beneficial - I'll be inclined to submitt more books if I know what it is they saw that I missed or didn't give enough weight to. If CGC grading remains a complete mystery and seems like a roll of the dice or a shaking of the bones - or some other bit of arcane voodoo - then I'm less likely to send stuff in.

 

As for charging potential buyers that seems more defensible. CGC after all doesn't make any money off the resale market (but will start doing so now). But IMO it is still short sighted. Seems it would be far better business model for the grader notes to be included with the books so that sellers can make them available. Then CGC could charge if such notes get lost.

 

For all the discussion going on, let's not lose sight of the fact that servics are costing more - a lot more in some cases. And at least right now some of the services that are costing more are also delivering less (like 100 day turn arounds on lower tiers)

 

People are not price insensitive. Substantial price increases create opportunities for competitors.

 

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

Your analogy about the machine isn't applicable to me. I'm never given the machine, just the specific part needing replaced. And depending upon the contracted services, I may indeed be able to give away or sell any information about that specific part if I own that information.

 

Right. In my case it's clearly spelled out. Not so much here. But again, who is going to be the one to man up and sue? Short of that nothing is going to change. And IMO, any court ruling will go poorly for the submitter(s). Just my opinion of course.

[hockey&comicsguy]

This conversation and the various analogies has become strange and off subject. The bottom line is that along with raising grading fees across the board and adding a $5 invoice fee CGC is now charging substantial coin for something that used to be free.

 

You want it for free. Boo hoo. I want free gas and free hookers. Don't mistake a past courtesy for your right to anything.

 

As the person submitting a book for grading, I feel I'm absolutely entitled to know what they saw that gave it the given grade. It's mutually beneficial - I'll be inclined to submitt more books if I know what it is they saw that I missed or didn't give enough weight to. If CGC grading remains a complete mystery and seems like a roll of the dice or a shaking of the bones - or some other bit of arcane voodoo - then I'm less likely to send stuff in.

 

And if I knew more about how CGC graded books I might be less apt to submit. If I knew their standards and had numerous notations and examples to go by, it's not incomprehensible that I would be able to grade books in accordance with their standards. And once I do that, I will be less inclined to pay for a service that would tell me exactly what I already know for myself.

 

 

For all the discussion going on, let's not lose sight of the fact that servics are costing more - a lot more in some cases. And at least right now some of the services that are costing more are also delivering less (like 100 day turn arounds on lower tiers)

 

People are not price insensitive. Substantial price increases create opportunities for competitors.

 

 

+1

[fantastic_four]

screw this debate. FF, that is the single most awesome lighting strike...EVER!

 

I don't know much about it other than that I agree, it looks really cool. I assume it's a regular lightning strike someone video recorded and then slowed down via post-production editing, but I really don't know.

[Marty Mann]

It reminds me of the cover from BATMAN The Dark Knight Returns

Book One!

 

mm

 

 

[MrBedrock]

But again, who is going to be the one to man up and sue?

Don't know about suing, or manning up for that matter, but I do have a lawyer looking into it.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

For all the discussion going on, let's not lose sight of the fact that servics are costing more - a lot more in some cases. And at least right now some of the services that are costing more are also delivering less (like 100 day turn arounds on lower tiers)

 

Heck, they can't even keep up with the Fast Tracks right now.

 

 

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

But again, who is going to be the one to man up and sue?

Don't know about suing, or manning up for that matter, but I do have a lawyer looking into it.

 

Don't people already refer to you as "the man".

 

I could be talking out my anus I just don't see how this dispute over ownership of notes is going to be decided by anything less than a suit. Or perhaps once the outrage dwindles people will simply move on to something else.

 

Glad to hear that somebody is at least getting a non geek opinion on the matter.

[Transplant]

But again, who is going to be the one to man up and sue?

Don't know about suing, or manning up for that matter, but I do have a lawyer looking into it.

 

Don't people already refer to you as "the man".

 

I could be talking out my anus I just don't see how this dispute over ownership of notes is going to be decided by anything less than a suit. Or perhaps once the outrage dwindles people will simply move on to something else.

 

Glad to hear that somebody is at least getting a non geek opinion on the matter.

I'm not sure it will require a lawsuit. 1) If significant enough submitters raise a stink, it would get CGC's attention. 2) You'd be surprised how some companies will change course when it just looks like the other party is serious about being litigious. Actual papers don't need to be filed.

[comicwiz]

I don't know how anyone deeply invested in this hobby can thing this change will be business as usual. Like I said earlier, as a result of fee-based notes the burden of risk lands squarely on the buyer, and any fallout in buyer behaviour will be directly linked to submissions, to say nothing of the issues this creates for dealers sitting on large inventory of CGC books. For anyone sitting on several thousand slabs, whether the plan is exit strategy or staying for the long haul, a call to their lawyer seems like a reasonable cost of doing business, especially if it can help to ensure they avoid taking a substantial financial hit.

[Tony S]

This conversation and the various analogies has become strange and off subject. The bottom line is that along with raising grading fees across the board and adding a $5 invoice fee CGC is now charging substantial coin for something that used to be free.

 

You want it for free. Boo hoo. I want free gas and free hookers. Don't mistake a past courtesy for your right to anything.

 

As the person submitting a book for grading, I feel I'm absolutely entitled to know what they saw that gave it the given grade. It's mutually beneficial - I'll be inclined to submitt more books if I know what it is they saw that I missed or didn't give enough weight to. If CGC grading remains a complete mystery and seems like a roll of the dice or a shaking of the bones - or some other bit of arcane voodoo - then I'm less likely to send stuff in.

 

And if I knew more about how CGC graded books I might be less apt to submit. If I knew their standards and had numerous notations and examples to go by, it's not incomprehensible that I would be able to grade books in accordance with their standards. And once I do that, I will be less inclined to pay for a service that would tell me exactly what I already know for myself.

 

 

For all the discussion going on, let's not lose sight of the fact that servics are costing more - a lot more in some cases. And at least right now some of the services that are costing more are also delivering less (like 100 day turn arounds on lower tiers)

 

People are not price insensitive. Substantial price increases create opportunities for competitors.

 

 

+1

 

The hooker analogy . D**n funny - but yet another strange analogy on this thread.. In this paragraph I'm talking about the general increase in grading fees and the new $5 invoice fee. Saying that CGC was doing me a courtesy by reading my invoices for free to see what books I've submitted seems a stretch. They grade comic books for a living. They require their invoice to be included with books submitted for grading. This is part of their cost of doing business. Adding fees for the costs associated with doing business is just another price increase. What is next? A fee for storage of books submitted? A recycling fee for the box it was shipped in?

 

I have NEVER sent a book in to be graded by CGC because I did not have any idea what the grade was. Every dealer out there thinks they know how to grade. I send books to CGC so that when I go to resell them the buyer makes the purchase in confidence that the CGC label is the grade of the book. Now and ten years from now. CGC adds liquidity to the marketplace by way of confidence in grade. Even if my grading was near identical to CGC's that wouldn't make me CGC. The book wouldn't be in a holder that preserves the grade, the next person that buys said book could easily challenge it "how do I know that is the same book Tony graded five years ago" So the better I get at estimating the grade CGC will give a book the more books I send in. The service costs money and mistakes can end up not being worth the cost of the slabbing.

 

Thanks for the +1 on the last section of my comment.

[hockey&comicsguy]

 

The hooker analogy . D**n funny - but yet another strange analogy on this thread.. In this paragraph I'm talking about the general increase in grading fees and the new $5 invoice fee. Saying that CGC was doing me a courtesy by reading my invoices for free to see what books I've submitted seems a stretch. They grade comic books for a living. They require their invoice to be included with books submitted for grading. This is part of their cost of doing business. Adding fees for the costs associated with doing business is just another price increase. What is next? A fee for storage of books submitted? A recycling fee for the box it was shipped in?

 

Ihave NEVER sent a book in to be graded by CGC because I did not have any idea what the grade was. Every dealer out there thinks they know how to grade. I send books to CGC so that when I go to resell them the buyer makes the purchase in confidence that the CGC label is the grade of the book. Now and ten years from now. CGC adds liquidity to the marketplace by way of confidence in grade. Even if my grading was near identical to CGC's that wouldn't make me CGC. The book wouldn't be in a holder that preserves the grade, the next person that buys it said book could easily challenge it "how do I know that is the same book Tony graded five years ago" So the better I get at estimating the grade CGC will give a book the more books I send in. The service costs money and mistakes can end up not being worth the cost of the slabbing.

 

Thanks for the +1 on the last section of my comment.

 

Regarding the courtesy comment I was only talking about grader's notes, not the invoice fee or any other fees or the hiking of existing fees so sorry if that was unclear. (thumbs u

 

I'm not debating the reasons why people slab books and how having slabbed books helps grease the wheels of commerce. I agree. I'm just saying that they can make an argument that their determinations (notes) are proprietary information. How they come to their conclusions is their business. And by divulging their expertise to every Tom, and Harry are doing themselves a disservice.

[hockey&comicsguy]

I don't know how anyone deeply invested in this hobby can thing this change will be business as usual. Like I said earlier, as a result of fee-based notes the burden of risk lands squarely on the buyer, and any fallout in buyer behaviour will be directly linked to submissions, to say nothing of the issues this creates for dealers sitting on large inventory of CGC books. For anyone sitting on several thousand slabs, whether the plan is exit strategy or staying for the long haul, a call to their lawyer seems like a reasonable cost of doing business, especially if it can help to ensure they avoid taking a substantial financial hit.

 

Goes back to what we were saying a few pages ago that people are going to have to stop slabbing and let CGC know the reason they've stopped is b/c of CGC's new fees and the whole note business. Otherwise it'll be business as usual for them.

[hockey&comicsguy]

I'm not sure it will require a lawsuit. 1) If significant enough submitters raise a stink, it would get CGC's attention. 2) You'd be surprised how some companies will change course when it just looks like the other party is serious about being litigious. Actual papers don't need to be filed.

 

True true. McDonald's, Wal Mart, etc....consumer angst has gotten some of the biggest business to change course. No reason to think CGC would be immune.

[drbanner]

Having to pay for grader's notes sucks donkey balls, and to add insult to injury, the prices they're asking for them are simply criminal.

 

This might be reasonable for something like $50 a year subscription for unlimited access on-line, but the way it's set up right now is absolutely preposterous. I've been a CGC acolyte since day 2 (on days 0 and 1 I was a skeptic/critic) and really haven't had a problem with them raising fees, having turtle-slow turn-times, controversial label changes, and , but this is ridiculous.

 

I would sure like to hear some feedback on how many calls a day they were getting for the notes that caused this gargantuan upheaval in their business model.

 

[Tony S]

 

The hooker analogy . D**n funny - but yet another strange analogy on this thread.. In this paragraph I'm talking about the general increase in grading fees and the new $5 invoice fee. Saying that CGC was doing me a courtesy by reading my invoices for free to see what books I've submitted seems a stretch. They grade comic books for a living. They require their invoice to be included with books submitted for grading. This is part of their cost of doing business. Adding fees for the costs associated with doing business is just another price increase. What is next? A fee for storage of books submitted? A recycling fee for the box it was shipped in?

 

Ihave NEVER sent a book in to be graded by CGC because I did not have any idea what the grade was. Every dealer out there thinks they know how to grade. I send books to CGC so that when I go to resell them the buyer makes the purchase in confidence that the CGC label is the grade of the book. Now and ten years from now. CGC adds liquidity to the marketplace by way of confidence in grade. Even if my grading was near identical to CGC's that wouldn't make me CGC. The book wouldn't be in a holder that preserves the grade, the next person that buys it said book could easily challenge it "how do I know that is the same book Tony graded five years ago" So the better I get at estimating the grade CGC will give a book the more books I send in. The service costs money and mistakes can end up not being worth the cost of the slabbing.

 

Thanks for the +1 on the last section of my comment.

 

Regarding the courtesy comment I was only talking about grader's notes, not the invoice fee or any other fees or the hiking of existing fees so sorry if that was unclear. (thumbs u

 

I'm not debating the reasons why people slab books and how having slabbed books helps grease the wheels of commerce. I agree. I'm just saying that they can make an argument that their determinations (notes) are proprietary information. How they come to their conclusions is their business. And by divulging their expertise to every Tom, and Harry are doing themselves a disservice.

 

I agree. (thumbs uThe comments about ownership and suing and all that for the grading notes seem unlikely to prevail. CGC could most certainly argue that the notes are proprietary infromation. I think their position on this as it currently exists is poor business and could lead to increased competion. But forcing them to do different? I doubt it.