Grader Notes

[Peter Loves Gwen]

.... It's sounds fool proof, but every time I say that someone invents a better fool.

 

I like that saying, did you come up with it or is it from someone else?

 

 

I always have appreciated being able to get grader's notes, but I might have made 20 calls in three years. I used them like most people, to see if a grade is on the low side or high side, and if there were any odd unseen defects.

 

The graders should not be wasting their time doing anything besides the grading process, their specialty. CGC should hire whoever is needed to handle everything besides the grading, plus anyone else it takes to shorten the weakest link of their service.

 

The notes have been free, they should remain free IMO. Stop wasting the grader's time, and hire more people, the economy needs it. That would provide much better service. Do that first, then if there is actually a need for more revenue, raise the prices for grading.

 

 

 

Rant/comparison;

It's like the US Postal Service raising postage 1 cent on a letter, dropping bulk mailing prices, and adding $5 to an Express Mail service. The USPS is losing money on bulk mail, people hate it, and the 1 cent increase is still not enough.

 

BTW, the USPS has a new fee that most people find out about the hard way, flat rate mailers(boxes etc). Most offices no longer keep anything but flat rate mailers in stock. The flat rate fee for an Express Mail is about $5 more than a non flat rate envelope. The same applies for Priority Mail boxes, more and more they carry only flat rate boxes, which require more initial postage. All of that is poor management, or poor customer service, apparently on purpose, and just like CGC's newest policies.

[8milemax]

.... It's sounds fool proof, but every time I say that someone invents a better fool.

 

I like that saying, did you come up with it or is it from someone else?

 

 

I always have appreciated being able to get grader's notes, but I might have made 20 calls in three years. I used them like most people, to see if a grade is on the low side or high side, and if there were any odd unseen defects.

 

The graders should not be wasting their time doing anything besides the grading process, their specialty. CGC should hire whoever is needed to handle everything besides the grading, plus anyone else it takes to shorten the weakest link of their service.

 

The notes have been free, they should remain free IMO. Stop wasting the grader's time, and hire more people, the economy needs it. That would provide much better service. Do that first, then if there is actually a need for more revenue, raise the prices for grading.

 

 

 

Rant/comparison;

It's like the US Postal Service raising postage 1 cent on a letter, dropping bulk mailing prices, and adding $5 to an Express Mail service. The USPS is losing money on bulk mail, people hate it, and the 1 cent increase is still not enough.

 

BTW, the USPS has a new fee that most people find out about the hard way, flat rate mailers(boxes etc). Most offices no longer keep anything but flat rate mailers in stock. The flat rate fee for an Express Mail is about $5 more than a non flat rate envelope. The same applies for Priority Mail boxes, more and more they carry only flat rate boxes, which require more initial postage. All of that is poor management, or poor customer service, apparently on purpose, and just like CGC's newest policies.

Not true, express mail flat rate envelope is cheaper than by weight. Only time weight is cheaper is local. All usps offices has to carry flat rate and by weight boxes.

[Transplant]

This may sound petty, but I do have a problem with The CGC making additional money off of others for notes related to a book I sent in and paid to have graded. It's not what I feel I agreed to when I submitted the book in the first place. I paid to have a book graded. End of story. If I knew that I was also sending books in to create a pile of information that could be sold at a later date for X amount of dollars I would certainly have to take that into consideration.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because for years I've banged on the OSPG usage drum and it has mostly been fuel for rants or a much larger area of discord over CGC's services.

 

More specifically, that CGC's service includes elements that borrow from the Bob Overstreet/Gemtstone body of research.

 

With this recent decision to monetize on graders notes, which amounts to analysis/research enabled through material submissions from a captive customer base, I have to think its open season for CGC to start paying a fee every time they grade a book that notes 1st appearances, the artist/writer, character appearances, cameo's, and any/all data that is used/referenced from the Overstreet Price Guide.

 

The cab's rolled up to the front door and the meters running.

This and Richards amazing post above are truly two of the most critically thought out posts I've read here. Summary: who do the graders note really belong to and from whom do the label notes originate?

 

If I let you look at my house to appraise it, do you now own the information of how many bedrooms, baths, square footage, etc.? Without clear language transferring that intellectual property to the appraiser, it's not clear they have any right to package it and sell it. What a great analysis, Mr.Bedrock. Truly.

[Aman619]

the appraiser scenario feels right, but not really. CGCs grading is a proprietary procedure. They don't disclose what they are looking for, nor how they weigh what they found. They don't have to share it with the submitter who only pays for the grade, NOT how CGC came up with it.

 

[Bruno_s4]

CGC should hire whoever is needed to handle everything besides the grading, plus anyone else it takes to shorten the weakest link of their service.

 

You could hire a student at minimum wage and give them a desk and a phone and presto....problem solved.

 

Obviously they chose to automate the process and charge anyone interested in obtaining information that the founders of the company thought we should have had access to for free.

[maloney414]

I've called for graders notes before purchasing expensive books online like my Hulk #1, FF #1, X-Men #1, Hulk #181, etc...

 

I know you can check the serial # now online, but how stupid a crook do you have to be to put a fake serial number on the label that doesn't even match the title of the book? One quick eBay or Heritage search can provide anyone with a valid #. Not to mention label switching fraud. MY reason for calling was to make sure the defects listed in the graders notes matched the actual book. It's a nice way to help prevent being a victim of fraud online, and at the very least inspires confidence in purchasing a CGC comic.

 

Do I want to have to pay $30 for that info now? No way. In a day and age when some really nice advanced iPad apps cost .99 to 2.99 the price is ridiculous.

 

I remember a time when people laughed at CGC books. I think the graders notes were a great part of the process to build credibility and confidence in their brand. I think the confidence in shopping online is one of their best acheivements. I hate seeing them cut aspects of that strength. And yes, I know technically it's not cut yet, but this change certainly seems like they want to phase it out.

[The Amazing Chump]

the appraiser scenario feels right, but not really. CGCs grading is a proprietary procedure. They don't disclose what they are looking for, nor how they weigh what they found. They don't have to share it with the submitter who only pays for the grade, NOT how CGC came up with it.

 

The appraiser scenario is right (or should be) because they are grading on an industry-wide agreed upon standard. If they invented the system (and I know there will be arguments, but they didn't) then they would own the process. But they are defining a standard on specific items. They should share the reasoning behind the valuation of those items. Just as if I have an oil painting appraised--I (and my insurance company, incidentally) should understand how that value was reached. In reproducible steps (otherwise the valuation is useless to anyone other than the original provider (or monopolist)).

[rtecbot]

Well at least the CGC Verification webpage can be used to check & see if your books are done if you have your invoice number. Does not tell you if the book has shipped yet though.

[Aman619]

the appraiser scenario feels right, but not really. CGCs grading is a proprietary procedure. They don't disclose what they are looking for, nor how they weigh what they found. They don't have to share it with the submitter who only pays for the grade, NOT how CGC came up with it.

 

The appraiser scenario is right (or should be) because they are grading on an industry-wide agreed upon standard. If they invented the system (and I know there will be arguments, but they didn't) then they would own the process. But they are defining a standard on specific items. They should share the reasoning behind the valuation of those items. Just as if I have an oil painting appraised--I (and my insurance company, incidentally) should understand how that value was reached. In reproducible steps (otherwise the valuation is useless to anyone other than the original provider (or monopolist)).

 

there is no certainty that they grade on an "industry wide standard." CGC IS the grading industry, All other grading is done ad hoc, by dealers or collectors etc.

 

so CGC is in their own world when it comes to grading. THEIR rules. THEIR standards. THEIR grades and graders notes.

 

sure, this sounds wacky. But they do a good enough job that the industry accepts and courts (their grading) opinion, and willingly pays for it.... while also accepting that we will not ever see their rule book on grading.

 

 

If say there was a grading company in every city or town then the appraiser analogy would hold more water.

[Cat-Man_America]

the appraiser scenario feels right, but not really. CGCs grading is a proprietary procedure. They don't disclose what they are looking for, nor how they weigh what they found. They don't have to share it with the submitter who only pays for the grade, NOT how CGC came up with it.

 

The appraiser scenario is right (or should be) because they are grading on an industry-wide agreed upon standard. If they invented the system (and I know there will be arguments, but they didn't) then they would own the process. But they are defining a standard on specific items. They should share the reasoning behind the valuation of those items. Just as if I have an oil painting appraised--I (and my insurance company, incidentally) should understand how that value was reached. In reproducible steps (otherwise the valuation is useless to anyone other than the original provider (or monopolist)).

 

there is no certainty that they grade on an "industry wide standard." CGC IS the grading industry, All other grading is done ad hoc, by dealers or collectors etc.

 

so CGC is in their own world when it comes to grading. THEIR rules. THEIR standards. THEIR grades and graders notes.

 

sure, this sounds wacky. But they do a good enough job that the industry accepts and courts (their grading) opinion, and willingly pays for it.... while also accepting that we will not ever see their rule book on grading.

 

 

If say there was a grading company in every city or town then the appraiser analogy would hold more water.

 

 

 

If this were a slippery slope, then you'd be an Olympic skier!

 

I'd also add, that if something looks wacky and sounds wacky, then there's a pretty good chance that it is wacky.

 

Having read through the entire length of this thread, I've seen some very good pro/con perspectives on the issue of CGC selling grading notes; perhaps the simplist and best was authored by MrBedrock who placed the ownership of work product issue in absolute terms. I concur with this POV.

 

IMHO, when you pay for grading, you are paying for a complete service, not something that can be parceled out piece-meal for an indeternate price. That's how I see it; OMMV.

[Aman619]

hate to say it, but I believe CGC disagrees with your "whole service" terms. Their disclaimers have been in plain sight all along as to what they "guarantee" and what they don't. You buy a grade in a slab that says their grade is valid (to whatever degree of validity you ascribe to it) and that while in the slab, their grade remains in effect. no more, no less.

 

we can trot out all manner of analogy, but IMO they don't apply here.

 

You may have thought, as many of us have. that CGC was this or that over the last decade. But when you boil it down, they are only what THEY say they are. THEY have never stated that their graders notes were for sale, only offered a few at a time by personal request yet, as a courtesy to their customers and others seeking to buy a slab.

 

I disagree with the roll out of this new fee, but I can't honestly say that it not right that they are suddenly charging us for something that WAS or IS OUR property. There are many fields where you pay for an opinion wherein they make copious notes etc, that you do not own as a result of paying for results of the service.

 

The answer here IMO is not to seek the notes for free anymore, rather to seek a fairer price structure for them. Let them no longer be a loss for CGC, but a small profit as opposed to a profit center! $30? Just too much

[NewWorldOrder]

I'm up because this is the time I typically get up to go to work. You're up because you're full of mess, Mr. Show Stopper.

 

Can't wait to give you a hug in WW Philly.

If you approach me physically at the show, a hug will be $5.00.

If I have to walk over to you at the show, a hug will be $10.00.

If you come by my hotel, it will be $25.00 per hug.

If I have to come by your hotel, it will be $35.00 per hug.

Any hugs after show hours, outside of a hotel setting, will be $50.00.

For each additional five second interval you hug me, it will be an additional $5.00.

 

What about a discounted membership fee for the year?

 

$39.99 annually for unlimited Doc hugs.

[greggy]

I'm up because this is the time I typically get up to go to work. You're up because you're full of mess, Mr. Show Stopper.

 

Can't wait to give you a hug in WW Philly.

If you approach me physically at the show, a hug will be $5.00.

If I have to walk over to you at the show, a hug will be $10.00.

If you come by my hotel, it will be $25.00 per hug.

If I have to come by your hotel, it will be $35.00 per hug.

Any hugs after show hours, outside of a hotel setting, will be $50.00.

For each additional five second interval you hug me, it will be an additional $5.00.

 

What about a discounted membership fee for the year?

 

$39.99 annually for unlimited Doc hugs.

I'll give you the first hug free in Philly.

[NewWorldOrder]

I'm up because this is the time I typically get up to go to work. You're up because you're full of mess, Mr. Show Stopper.

 

Can't wait to give you a hug in WW Philly.

If you approach me physically at the show, a hug will be $5.00.

If I have to walk over to you at the show, a hug will be $10.00.

If you come by my hotel, it will be $25.00 per hug.

If I have to come by your hotel, it will be $35.00 per hug.

Any hugs after show hours, outside of a hotel setting, will be $50.00.

For each additional five second interval you hug me, it will be an additional $5.00.

 

What about a discounted membership fee for the year?

 

$39.99 annually for unlimited Doc hugs.

I'll give you the first hug free in Philly.

 

 

Are you coming this year?

 

[Cat-Man_America]

hate to say it, but I believe CGC disagrees with your "whole service" terms. Their disclaimers have been in plain sight all along as to what they "guarantee" and what they don't. You buy a grade in a slab that says their grade is valid (to whatever degree of validity you ascribe to it) and that while in the slab, their graTde remains in effect. no more, no less.

 

we can trot out all manner of analogy, but IMO they don't apply here.

 

You may have thought, as many of us have. that CGC was this or that over the last decade. But when you boil it down, they are only what THEY say they are. THEY have never stated that their graders notes were for sale, only offered a few at a time by personal request yet, as a courtesy to their customers and others seeking to buy a slab.

 

I disagree with the roll out of this new fee, but I can't honestly say that it not right that they are suddenly charging us for something that WAS or IS OUR property. There are many fields where you pay for an opinion wherein they make copious notes etc, that you do not own as a result of paying for results of the service.

 

The answer here IMO is not to seek the notes for free anymore, rather to seek a fairer price structure for them. Let them no longer be a loss for CGC, but a small profit as opposed to a profit center! $30? Just too much

 

 

 

There are some points on which we can agree, and perhaps it boils down to how we each define the service that CGC provides.

 

As I see it, when we submit books for grading we're paying for the professional opinion of the graders and the security of the slab, which I suppose one could argue is designed more for the security of the opinion than the perceived security of the encapsulated book.

 

I find it difficult justifying any rationale for CGC selling the grading notes for additional fees. That said, I could rationalize a value added service fee whereby collectors could access notes on any given book for a set amount, be it an annual fee or per book charge.

 

So, in this respect, I do see some room for agreement even though the slippery slope still poses ethical hazards for CGC given the skiers are already paying for the skis and the ride up the slope!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[silverseeker]

As someone who de-slabs every CGC-graded book I buy to read and add to my collection (thereby reducing its liquidity), I figured I'd throw out a few comments about my usage of the graders' notes:

 

- Depending on my buying patterns, I may not call the CGC for six months, but then call them five times in two weeks to get graders' notes for a group of books I'm interested in buying.

 

- I've called for notes on books that range in price from $50 to $1,500.

 

- My goal is to minimize the risk of buying a book that has flaws that bother me, and ideally want to avoid de-slabbing a book, finding a flaw that bothers me and then either having to sell it raw (most likely at a loss) or pay to have it re-slabbed.

 

- When graders' notes are available, they've often been vary valuable in alerting me to detached or rusty staples, stains, smudges and other defects that would keep me from buying a book if I were looking at a raw copy.

 

With all of the above noted, I'd gladly pay a monthly or annual fee for unlimited access to the graders' notes. I'd even be willing to pay the per-book fee, but it would have to be less than $5 per book.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The CGC

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

How blissful your life must be.

 

It'd be better if CGC actually ever tried to help the hobby instead of squeezing every nickel and dime possible out of it. But I wouldn't expect you to understand, that's your job too.

 

Whoa bud. Careful - regardless of how one makes a living Joe is a long-standing and well respected member of this community and your punk-a-s-s comments are not welcome.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

To add, the fact that you took a swipe at other honest and well respected board members, including Joey in this case,