Tintin interior for 2,100,000€

[krazykatduce-migration]

 

.....................

[adamstrange]

What I don't get about crumb is how/why is so much of his art constantly on the market. There's a big selection literally every heritage auction

 

I assumed they had an arrangement with Crumb. The Kafka pages, for example, are of recent vintage and are therefore likely to be returned to Crumb and sold by him. I'm doubtful that Heritage is the buyer or the source.

[Bronty]

For the Kafka pages, sure. But it seems like they've been selling his vintage stuff steadily for years. I wouldn't think crumb would still own those

[suspense39]

Especially since Crumb has art dealers that would handle his art, I think heritage must have bought them in.

[delekkerste]

For those who are not familiar with Hergé art, the Musée Hergé in Louvain la Neuve holds a collection that no amount of superlatives could do justice. The last time I was there, I suspect any one among at least 100 of the originals on display would have brought the same or a higher price if it were to come up for auction. None of them ever will, of course.

 

As alluded to by someone else previously, the lack of material in private hands probably plays a big role in these huge Tintin prices in addition to "legitimacy" and everything else.

[delekkerste]

Which still begs the question why Park's Law permits ultra-wealthy Europeans (and Americans, apparently) to buy European OA but not ultra-wealthy Americans (or Europeans) to buy American OA?

 

There is no "law", only what the empirical evidence has shown to be the case to date.

[Bronty]

The museum, the national pride, the tiny supply, all of it. If the entirety of the American comics industry was jack Kirby and a couple others, and 95% was in a museum, and the populace was proud of the artwork... you'd get huge numbers for Kirby too

[Nexus]

But there is still a lot of prime American OA going overseas, including artists and titles such as Foster, Frazetta, Raymond, Barks, Kirby, DKR, WM, V, SCOTT PILGRIM ( ), et al. Time will tell.

Oh so very true.

 

My CAF was being picked over so badly by Europeans making 3x-5x FMV offers (which I generally couldn't say no to) that I just took everything down. What's the point of collecting art if you've no collection left?! And I only had a small assortment of 'decent' US stuff up, even though my collection is actually about 99% non-US by piece count and at least 75% non-US by dollar value.

 

Still scratching my head at what all that over-offering was about, but I think maybe circumventing dealing with Heritage and other houses fee, shipping, customs structure may have had a lot to do with it. There's a lot to be said for agreeing to a price and then just swapping goods, no middlers, ya know?

 

Unsolicited offers on pieces in my gallery (all marked "NFS") have really ramped up the last year, with the vast majority coming from Europe. Of those, the majority are from France. Why? No idea. Maybe their own surging market is playing a part?

 

Anyway, I don't normally sell anything from the top half of my collection, but the offers have been so aggressive, that even I caved. Totally unexpected, but it did allow me to splurge on some bigger wants (where I overpaid myself, so the cycle continues).

[tth2]

Maybe I should start posting my art on CAF.

[Eltanin]

The museum, the national pride, the tiny supply, all of it. If the entirety of the American comics industry was jack Kirby and a couple others, and 95% was in a museum, and the populace was proud of the artwork... you'd get huge numbers for Kirby too

You mean it's not?

I agree with your other arguments, though, and think they are the reason why Tintin OA's prices are so high.

But if you imply the european comics are just Hergé and a couple others, I have to strongly disagree with you. There is a huge production with plenty of artists. Most of the artists are not known across european borders, but that's also true the other way around. If you ask an average european comic reader about american artists, I'm not sure how many names will pop apart from Barks and Kirby.

[Bronty]

No Im thinking specifically of Belgian comics as I was talking about national (not continental ) pride. perhaps there are many names Im not considering even within that more limited scope? Im certainly no expert as to the scope of Belgian comics but I was under the impression that it was a smaller industry just due to being the product of a smaller country? Educate me here. How many Belgian comics titles are published in a month today? What about in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s?

 

My uneducated guess would be that the total creative volume/output of the US comics industry has dwarfed that of the Belgian industry, but at the same time Id guess the Belgian comics were of a much higher average quality.

 

Similarly Id very much guess that if all US and Belgian comic art were privately owned, the total value of all US comic art would be far greater than that of all Belgian comic art, but that the Belgian work would be worth more on average (even after a significant reduction in average price as a result of all of the work being available).

 

 

[Eltanin]

No Im thinking specifically of Belgian comics as I was talking about national (not continental ) pride. perhaps there are many names Im not considering even within that more limited scope? Im certainly no expert as to the scope of Belgian comics but I was under the impression that it was a smaller industry.

Many of the historical and most famous french-speaking artists are Belgian: for example Peyo and Franquin for the most famous in US, but there are dozen others.

Anyway, I think you can basically consider France and Belgium as one single market and industry, especially since the publishers are common to both countries. I'm sure Belgian are proud to have the most famous artists, but overall, readers don't make the distinction between Belgian and French artists, so it doesn't make really sense to distinguish the two, apart from a friendly national pride competition between France and Belgium.

As for the size of the markets, here are a few numbers I found:

(includes all kind of comics sales, FB, American, mangas)

-Comics market in France in 2013: 417 millions euros = 568 millions dollars

-Sales in Belgium add more or less 10-15% to the french market.

-Comics market in US in 2011: 715 millions dollars

 

So, France-Belgium market is almost the same size as the american one.

[Eltanin]

Similarly Id very much guess that if all US and Belgian comic art were privately owned, the total value of all US comic art would be far greater than that of all Belgian comic art, but that the Belgian work would be worth more on average (even after a significant reduction in average price as a result of all of the work being available).

I think you are right on this one. But the higher average value for belgian artwork might also come from the fact that artwork is on average bigger (I'm talking about the pages size).

 

But then again, I don't think there is a distinction between Belgian and French production, and likewise for the French and Belgian collectors.

It would be a bit like distinguishing US comics artists and collectors from California and Florida (ok, I have no actual idea where US artists are from, but you get the idea).

[mtlevy]

I am going to post some vintage Jerry Lewis pages on CAF and retire!

[Bronty]

No Im thinking specifically of Belgian comics as I was talking about national (not continental ) pride. perhaps there are many names Im not considering even within that more limited scope? Im certainly no expert as to the scope of Belgian comics but I was under the impression that it was a smaller industry.

Many of the historical and most famous french-speaking artists are Belgian: for example Peyo and Franquin for the most famous in US, but there are dozen others.

Anyway, I think you can basically consider France and Belgium as one single market and industry, especially since the publishers are common to both countries. I'm sure Belgian are proud to have the most famous artists, but overall, readers don't make the distinction between Belgian and French artists, so it doesn't make really sense to distinguish the two, apart from a friendly national pride competition between France and Belgium.

As for the size of the markets, here are a few numbers I found:

(includes all kind of comics sales, FB, American, mangas)

-Comics market in France in 2013: 417 millions euros = 568 millions dollars

-Sales in Belgium add more or less 10-15% to the french market.

-Comics market in US in 2011: 715 millions dollars

 

So, France-Belgium market is almost the same size as the american one.

 

Interesting and surprising, thank you

[delekkerste]

My CAF was being picked over so badly by Europeans making 3x-5x FMV offers (which I generally couldn't say no to) that I just took everything down. What's the point of collecting art if you've no collection left?! And I only had a small assortment of 'decent' US stuff up, even though my collection is actually about 99% non-US by piece count and at least 75% non-US by dollar value.

 

I'm curious as to:

 

(a) what type of art was being sought out and

(b) what kind of price range we're talking about - $1K pieces getting $3-5K offers? $10K pieces getting $30-$50K offers? $100K pieces getting $300-$500K offers?

 

I've only received one offer from France recently that was competitive (for a very mainstream piece of '80s Marvel superhero art). A layman might have said, "wow, that's 2x FMV!", but, to me, it was just where FMV is these days on this type of example (granted, it's double where these things were only a few years ago, but that's about par for the course).

 

If any Europeans are willing to make true 3-5x FMV offers, they are welcome to browse through my CAF gallery! There's stuff I own that I wouldn't sell for 10x FMV, but 3-5x FMV would certainly get a lot of stuff out the door! And, even if I said no, I certainly wouldn't be insulted by any above-FMV offers!

 

Regardez, mes amis, regardez! Soyez les bienvenus!!!

[stinkininkin]

My CAF was being picked over so badly by Europeans making 3x-5x FMV offers (which I generally couldn't say no to) that I just took everything down. What's the point of collecting art if you've no collection left?! And I only had a small assortment of 'decent' US stuff up, even though my collection is actually about 99% non-US by piece count and at least 75% non-US by dollar value.

 

I'm curious as to:

 

(a) what type of art was being sought out and

(b) what kind of price range we're talking about - $1K pieces getting $3-5K offers? $10K pieces getting $30-$50K offers? $100K pieces getting $300-$500K offers?

 

I've only received one offer from France recently that was competitive (for a very mainstream piece of '80s Marvel superhero art). A layman might have said, "wow, that's 2x FMV!", but, to me, it was just where FMV is these days on this type of example (granted, it's double where these things were only a few years ago, but that's about par for the course).

 

 

If any Europeans are willing to make true 3-5x FMV offers, they are welcome to browse through my CAF gallery! There's stuff I own that I wouldn't sell for 10x FMV, but 3-5x FMV would certainly get a lot of stuff out the door! And, even if I said no, I certainly wouldn't be insulted by any above-FMV offers!

 

Regardez, mes amis, regardez! Soyez les bienvenus!!!

 

+1

 

I have NEVER been offered 3-5 times FMV on ANYTHING I have in my collection. 2x FMV on rare occasion yes, even on some expensive pieces (five figure pieces), but never higher. Maybe I'm collecting the wrong stuff.

 

Scott

 

[suspense39]

I've been offered 1/2 market value a few times

[adamstrange]

Especially since Crumb has art dealers that would handle his art, I think heritage must have bought them in.

Heritage does little buying in of comics so not sure why you think they would be so gung ho for Crumb.

 

For the Kafka pages, sure. But it seems like they've been selling his vintage stuff steadily for years. I wouldn't think crumb would still own those

Many artists have pieces lying around. Heritage has been selling off illustration art from the more than one estate over the last few years.

[adamstrange]

For those who are not familiar with Hergé art, the Musée Hergé in Louvain la Neuve holds a collection that no amount of superlatives could do justice. The last time I was there, I suspect any one among at least 100 of the originals on display would have brought the same or a higher price if it were to come up for auction. None of them ever will, of course.

 

As alluded to by someone else previously, the lack of material in private hands probably plays a big role in these huge Tintin prices in addition to "legitimacy" and everything else.

if legitimacy comes from having the work in a museum it might be useful to point out that the museum funding was primarily from Herge's estate. Waiting for the government or existing museums to get into comic art doesn't occur more often in Europe than in the US.