Improve the Overstreet

[blackterror]

I started a thread over on general...wanting more eye-balls months and months ago...have come to realize ... heck with the eye-balls ... golden age is where I and my posts need to be. This is the heart of the hobby.

 

Let me encourage you to carefully read through the Phantom Lady 17 posts on the general board and then bring your thoughts over here.

 

There are many topics over on the Phantom Lady 17 board ... but the real heart of my discussion was

 

that Overstreet in moving from the 9.4 standard grade pricing for all books last year did a good thing...it showed they can make aggessive changes...and they established a much better guide for silver age collectors... GUIDE only a Guide

 

but in the process they maintained a MIS - GUIDE for golden age collectors ... case in point the Phantom Lady 17 ... shoot the highest graded copy is 9.0 ... but providing pricing up to 9.2 and then saying funny money kicks in beyond that is doing a dis-service ... it's not a guide it's just nuts...sites like Nostomania are far superior ... far ... far superior to have some idea of where the market is at.

 

anyway...Overstreet doesn't have to price the high grade stuff like Nostomania... it can take a whole different tack and that is to stop putting totally unrealistic prices on golden age beyond 8.0

 

if we can get this thread going here ... i'll post back some more thoughts ... but bottom line guide should not price golden age up to the same point as silver age ... if you think that we would be losing info ... it's not so ... the prices are so out of whack it's a mis-guide.

 

example go check the price of the Black Terror 8 sale on Heritage ... and then look at Overstreet...

 

by stopping pricing at 8.0 Overstreet would give better information by informing the collector buyer or seller ... that above this grade on the buy or sell side ... there isn't good guidance be careful when you buy or sell ... right now the guide says to do that on books graded above 9.2 ... this is true for silver age ... but stupid as blank for golden/atomic age ... and truthfully MIS -GUIDED...

 

if you don't like that topic if you owned PL 17 in 9.0 what would you want for it ... Overstreet Guide ... hey it's not even 9.2 ... crazy money shouldn't happen until above 9.2 right? oh wait this takes us back to the original topic guide is not even close for golden age above 8.0 ... and it is consistent on book after book after book ... what would you want for a 9.0 cap 46? guide?

 

shouldn't get multiples until 9.4 right ... uh forget selling ... try to buy one and find out how WRONG ... the GUIDE is ... It so wrong it's not even a guide ... it's a mis-guide...

 

THANKS RANT, RANT

[rjpb]

The guide consistantly overvalues or undervalues some books in all grades and from all eras.

Many "keys" and other hot books sell for well over guide even in grades below 9.2. Most Bronze age books can be found for a fraction of guide in all listed grades - Most Silver Age in less than VF rarely achieves guide prices. There are a low interest GA books that would have a hard time achieving guide value even in 9.2. Ebay, GPA and other internet sources have made it much easier to find the "real" value of most comics. The collecting community seems to have more of an understanding that Overstreet really is just a rough guide and not the pricing bible it was treated as in the 70s. Even if it were to do a better job reflecting the actual value of some books - sizable price fluctuations for a given book within the same year make it difficult to come up with any thing more accurate than an average value, and even that average would be a constantly shifting number.

 

Part of the fun of collecting (for me anyway) was discovering where the guide and FMV differed.

Sure, there is always room for improvement in the Guide, but having different "top ends" for different listings will probably be more confusing than illuminating.

[chrisco37]

You should talk to Ian Levine (where has Ian been lately?). He has numerous problems w/ OS as well. Perhaps you could join forces and battle it out with Arnold and TomG.

[chrisco37]

(where has Ian been lately?). .

 

My bad! He posted today.

[precodekeith]

I think it is no secret that OS is out of touch with FMV. Over-valued on many things, under-valued on others.

 

Problem is, how do you get them to take notice and initiate appropriate change? Will it ever happen?

 

I'd like to bend their ears a little .....

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

We're around .

 

As for changes, we make them all the time. Look at the 9.2 change last time. And as for addressing some readers' concerns about that and some of the ideas presented here and in other threads, all I can say is...keep an eye out for the 35th edition early next year...

 

Arnold

[precodekeith]

Cool Arnold!

 

Good to know OS keeps eyes and ears open in a forum such as this.

 

As for changes, yes OS does indeed make them (eventually). However, I think the "problem" people have is that many changes, especially the lowering of prices to match accurate market value, seems to take way too long.

[rjpb]

The problem with lowering the guide values on the many books that routinely sell for 30-70% of guide, is that informed buyers often use the current guide values to figure out what they should pay, even if it more or less a fixed percentage of guide for a given tile, era, genre or publisher.

 

If the guide were to more accurately reflect the true FMV of these books, many buyers might still balk at paying "full guide" for fairly common books. Even though the "great deal" that one gets when paying 50% of guide for a book is often an illusion, as that "discounted" price is more reflective of FMV than the guide value, it is an illusion that helps increase the comfort level buyers have with many purchases. I suppose more accurate values combined with the buyer's desire for a discount might result in even lower prices , benefiting people like me, who buy more than they sell, but then we'd be back with overvalued guide prices. I think one reason Overstreet has resisted dramatically dropping values for a wide range of books, is that it might shake the confidence of the collecting community. I'm not saying nothing should be changed, and some of the BA to Modern values in the guide, even for 8.0-9.2 copies, is so out of whack with FMV that some revision is needed. I'm thinking of stuff that is fairly easily found for around 10% of guide value.

 

I know Keith is particularly frustrated with dealers who think their lower-grade common pre-code horror inventory is worth guide or more, but I'm not sure if more accurate guide values would bring these people back to reality. Some people are always going to overvalue their stock.

[fantastic_four]

I agree entirely. The top price listed in the guide should be something close to the list below for the various ages:

 

• Platinum = 8.0 (this is already the way they list it)
• Golden = 9.0
• Silver = 9.2
• Bronze = 9.4
• Copper = 9.6
• Modern = 9.6

[precodekeith]

The problem with lowering the guide values on the many books that routinely sell for 30-70% of guide, is that informed buyers often use the current guide values to figure out what they should pay, even if it more or less a fixed percentage of guide for a given tile, era, genre or publisher.

 

 

I know Keith is particularly frustrated with dealers who think their lower-grade common pre-code horror inventory is worth guide or more, but I'm not sure if more accurate guide values would bring these people back to reality. Some people are always going to overvalue their stock.

 

RJ - I don't disagree with you, but surely adjusting the guide would HELP some, don't you think? We have to start somewhere, why not with the "bible?"

 

Surely, many informed collectors get their material for 30-70% off OS guide, but only if the dealer is willing to play the game. How many times have you seen some interesting, but overpriced, books at a a flea market or swap meet; where the "dealer" was not willing to give ANY discount at all?? A more accurate guide price would certainly be a better starting point for all parties... no??!!

 

Why not just adjust the guide correctly and do away with the "discount" practice??!!

[lou_fine]

I agree entirely. The top price listed in the guide should be something close to the list below for the various ages:

 

• Platinum = 8.0 (this is already the way they list it)
• Golden = 9.0
• Silver = 9.2
• Bronze = 9.4
• Copper = 9.6
• Modern = 9.6

 

FF;

 

In full agreement with you here since these are pretty much the same numbers I had put up back in April when the guide first came out.

[drbanner]

We're around .

 

As for changes, we make them all the time. Look at the 9.2 change last time.

 

Did changing the column title from "9.4" to "9.2" really mean all my NM- Hulks from 400-418 suddenly increased in value? Making the "top grade" 9.2 was a fine idea, but unfortunately no one changed the "top grade" values...what a disaster.

 

"...you moved the headstones but you didn't move the bodies!"

[shrunkenhead]

Banner, I agree. Can we please get the OS back to a top grade of 9.4? A solid NM grade has been the standard by which all other grades are determined since people started grading comics to begin with. The implication that a 9.4 means that the variances in price are so widespread from sale to sale is just plain false. There's a clear pattern for comic sales in 9.4, just like there is for any other grade. Can we get back to the standard, guys, how about it!?!

[fantastic_four]

The implication that a 9.4 means that the variances in price are so widespread from sale to sale is just plain false. There's a clear pattern for comic sales in 9.4, just like there is for any other grade.

 

Not when the supply is extremely low or nonexistant, and some Gold and even Silver books fit this bill. There just aren't enough data points to establish a pattern. The 9.4 patterns on books in high supply, however, are much more clear, and that column should never have been dropped for Bronze books or later.

[shrunkenhead]

Point taken, FF, in which case I'd have to agree with blackterror that the guide cutoff for gold should be 8.0 or 8.5 or some such number. To list gold prices at 9.2 without a 9.4 does nobody any favors.

 

Silver, though, with a few exceptions, should definitely go to 9.4, and bronze could probably even go to 9.6 in guide. At least 9.4, though.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

"that column should never have been dropped for Bronze books or later."

 

Hmm...

 

[drbanner]

"that column should never have been dropped for Bronze books or later."

 

Hmm...

 

 

...... .....

[fantastic_four]

Silver, though, with a few exceptions, should definitely go to 9.4, and bronze could probably even go to 9.6 in guide. At least 9.4, though.

 

I'm primarily a Silver collector, and based upon my analysis of the market, I vehemently disagree with you. I collect Marvels, and when a 9.4 pops up on THE most popular titles in the highest comparative supply, the price is most often unpredictable. The variance is incredible because there might be only 1 to 10 others available in that grade or better. And for DC, it's even MORE variable since DC Silver is even less available.

 

Sounds like Arnold tipped his hat that Overstreet might be adding one (or more) columns for Bronze, Copper, and Modern books...what about Gold? I haven't heard much consensus in this thread for what the cutoff should be. Sounds like we're unsure where it should fall between 8.0 and 9.0.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

No new columns will be added. The same columns that have been there will still be there. But there might be an..."adjustment"...that might begin to address some of the concerns people have had since the 9.2 switch.

 

And I stress "begin."

[lou_fine]

Can we please get the OS back to a top grade of 9.4? A solid NM grade has been the standard by which all other grades are determined since people started grading comics to begin with........ Can we get back to the standard, guys, how about it!?!

 

This is actually an inaccurate statement. For the longest time, the standard grade to which everything was measured against in the OS guide was Mint condition. This was later changed to the 9.4 NM standard before changing once again to the 9.2 NM- standard for this year's edition of the guide.