Improve the Overstreet

[Forbush-Man]

 

So glad to see intelligent debate.

 

Hey! There's no need for slander!

 

 

 

[shrunkenhead]

 

I WILL say, without prevarication (to quote Poe's THE GOLD BUG) that pulps may well have furthered the short story. And that the short story seques nicely with comic books.

 

 

This is 100% true, and a point that has often been unrecognized by literary critics who have a long history of snubbing their noses at the pulps. The pulps actually shared a largely unrecognized affinity and had considerable influence on some of America's major authors from the height of the "modern" literary period, and had an even greater influence on the PUBLISHERS of such authors...take a look at some of those early covers for printings of The Great Gatsby, The Sun Also Rises, and a number of Faulkner's early stuff....why, good gosh, they're pulp covers!! So to extend POV's point, the pulp's influence extends beyond the short story, but to the novel as well, particularly those authors who were as interested in reaching the public as they were the critics.

[PovertyRow]

 

So glad to see intelligent debate.

 

Hey! There's no need for slander!

 

 

 

 

Yeah! Who invited Mister Nice Guy anyways?

[precodekeith]

[Forbush-Man]

 

 

 

[Norrin_Radd]

"Take me, Garth!"

"Where? I'm short on gas and you need a coat." - Garth from Wayne's World 2.

 

 

 

Del Preston: "...but the shopkeeper and his son... that's a different story altogether. I had to beat them to death with their own shoes. Nasty business, really, but sure enough I got the M&Ms, and Ozzy went on stage and did a great show."

[lou_fine]

Granted, the world's first Comic Book, Funnies on Parade, (Eastern Color Prinitng Company, 1933) was published by a publisher not associated with Pulp Magazines, Comic Books none the less become the foster child of the Pulp Publisher: The Pulp Publisher adopted (Parented) the new medium.

 

Fuelman;

 

Based upon your above statement, I would have to agree with POV and say that the comic strips were more the parents of the current day comics than the pulps. Since you are quoting from the Overstreet, you should probably check out page 355 to 358 of the current OS guide:

 

"...the modern American comic book was born when a 45-year-old sales manager for Eastern Colour Printing Company of New York reinvented the format from the failed tabloid The Funnies.

 

Harry I. Wildenberg's job was to come up with ideas that would sell colour printing for Eastern, a company which also printed the comic sections for a score of newspapers.....downtime meant less take-home pay, so Wildenberg was always racking his brains for something to fit the colour presses. He was fascinated by the miles of funny sheets which rolled off Eastern's presses each week, and he constantly sought new ways to exploit their commercial possibilities.......

 

....The idea for creating an actual comic book as we know it today, however, did not occur to Wildenberg until later in 1933, when he said he was idly folding a newspaper in halves, then in quarters. As he looked at the twic-folded paper, it occurred to him that it was a convenient book size........According to an 1949 interview with Wildenberg, he thought "why not a comic book? It would have 32 or 64 pages and make a fine item for concerns which distribute premiums." ......

 

....Working for Eastern Colour at this same time were quite a few future legends of the comic business, such as Max Gaines, Lev Gleason, Harry Moore (all sales staff directly underneath the supervision of Wildenber), Sol Harrison as a colour separator, and George Dougherty Sr. as a printer........Wildenberg & crew had an artist make up a few dummies by hand. The sales staff then walked them around to their biggest prospects. Wildenberg received a telegram from Proctor & Gamble for an order of a million copies for a 32-page colour comic magazine called Funnies on Parade.....

 

....The success of Funnies on Parade quickly led to Eastern publishing additional giveaway books in the same format.....The idea that anyone would pay for them seemed fantastic to Wildenberg, so Max Gaines stickered ten cents on several dozen of the latest premium, Famous Funnies A Carnival of Comics as a test, and talked a couple of newsstands onto participating in this experiment. The copies sold out over the weekend and newsies asked for more......

 

....But Wildenberg had become convinced that children as well as grown-ups were not getting all the comics they wanted in Sunday papers.......Wildenberg said, "I decided that if boys and girls were willing to work for premium coupons to obtain comic books, they might be willing to pay ten cents on the newsstand." This conviction was also strengthen by Max Gaines' ten cent sticker experiment...."

 

=================================================

 

Sorry for the long post, but very interesting reading from a historical point of view. Anyways, based upon the above excerpts from the OS guide, I would have to say that the comic books descended directly from the newspaper strips.

 

A possible point of inaccuracy in the above excerpt is the one million print run figure for Funnies on Parade. I have seen it stated in previous chronologies that the actual print run was only 10,000 copies which is most likely a much more believeable figure given that this was a totally new and experimental format.

 

One other probably more significant point of interest is that the commonly held perception that Max Gaines was the father of the modern comic book may have been misplaced, and the title should more properly be held by Harry Wildenberg.

[Forbush-Man]

Thanks for the article Lou.

 

Okay, I'd say on the family tree there are three contributors to the Comic Book: Newspaper strips, Big Little Books & Pulps. Newspaper strips provide 2 things (1) The basic format (panel art to tell a story) and (2) the material for the Comic Book. Beyond this, what do they provide beyond this?

 

Big Little Books, first introduced in 1932, basically used a format which is a cross between a Newspaper strip and a Pulp Magazine.

 

Pulps were popular medium of the time. The Comic Book was the new medium which allowed most anyone acess (Pulps required more writing skills) by telling stories in words & pictures.

 

The first Comic Books were mainly Newspaper strip reprints. Detective Danbecomes the first newstand Comic Book with new material and "direct inspiration for Siegal & Shuster to convert Superman into a Comic Book". Now between 1933 and 1938 Comic Books are basically funny characters, Science Fiction, Westerns, Cops & Robbers, ect. In October 1935, Siegal & Shuster's first work appears in New Fun Comics #6 and introduce Dr. Occult. Doctor Occult becomes Dr. Spector who, in More Fun Comics # 14 (October 1936) becomes the first Superman prototype (dons a costume). Action Comics # 1 gives us the full blown Super-Hero with the introduction of Superman.

 

Major Wheeler-Nicholson (once a Pulp Magazine writer) starts National Comics (DC). New Fun Comics, More Fun Comics and Action Comics are all National Publications (DC). Siegal & Shuster are big fans of Hugo Gernsback's Amazine Stories which is a Pulp Magazine and the very first Science Fiction Magazine. They are almost certainly influenced by the popular Pulp Magazine Doc Savage (began 1933) who is biled as Superman Doc Savage-Master of Mind & Body.... Many of the cocepts behind Dos Savage are similar to the story of Superman, including a Fortress of Solitude. Also keep in mind the original concept of "The Superman" first appears in a Science Fiction fanzine (this would not have been possible if not for Hugo Gernsback and Amazing Stories).

 

With the introduction of Superman Comic Books and costumed characters take off. Pulp Publishers, seeing the sales results, begin publishing their own Comic Books. Fiction House, Dell, Fawcett, Red Star (Timely) become the major players in the market along with National (DC).Gernsback to joins the fray with his Superworld Comics. Many of the writers and artist who had been working in Pulps begin to work in Comic Books. Superworld runs for three issues and features covers by Pulp Magazine artist Frank R. Paul . Many Pulp Characters begin to show up in Comic Books, Ka-Zar, The Shadow, Doc Savage, Green Hornet, Green Lama, The Lone Ranger, ect. Tarzan, first concieved in All-Story Magazine, is published in Newspapers and Comic Books.

 

Writers and artist cross-over from Pulps to Comic Books: Frank R. Paul creates the cover for Timely's first attempt at Comic Book publishing with Marvel Comics # 1. Alex Schomburg, who had been doing interior illustration for Gernsback and others, becomes the primere cover artist for Timely Long time Science Fiction author Edmond Hamilton will write for National (DC). Edmond Hamilton will write stories for National (DC). Later more writers who began thier work in Pulps will either write for Comic Books or have adoptations of thier work; Ray Bradbury, Arthur C. Clark, ect.

 

Newspaper strips provide the template, Pulps provide the conten and material as well as the inspiration. What Comic Book Collector doesn't appreciate the beautifully painted, extravigant covers of the Pulps?

I say, and this is JMHO, the Pulp Magazines provide much more to the development of the Comic Book.

 

[Forbush-Man]

the victorian section is interesting, even though i've only spent 2 minutes looking at it. honestly though, didn't pulps have more impact on comics as we know them than many of these victorian era books? i understand a certain someone has a warehouse full of platinum era books that he'd like there to be more interest in, but I'd think he also likely has a warehouse full of pulps. i understand there's another, albeit infrequently published, pulp guide, but most occasional pulp buyers, like myself, will never buy it. maybe 10-20 pages of the OPG guide could be devoted to a very generalized pulp guide? cutting down on the number of lines devoted to quarter bin moderns would easily open up 10-20 pages.

 

You know if I hadn't responded to this and Arnold would put The Market Report in the Big Big Overstreet Price Guide, this debate wouldn't have happened!

 

Damn you Arnold! Damn you all to heck!

 

Damn you Victorian Section!!!

 

 

 

 

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

[Forbush-Man]

 

 

DAMN YOU, ARNOLD!

[Forbush-Man]

Hey Arnold,

Care to throw in your .02¢ on the "Pulps Vs Comicstrips" debate?

 

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

My 2 cents is that nothing in history - nothing - is ever as simple as saying "Such and such is the direct inspiration for this," or that "this came from this source while this came from this source and that's the end of it." The fact is that all aspects of this discussion - pulps, comic strips, Big Little Books - as well as the rising interest in pop culture media at the time, the economics of the country in the 1930s, the need for escapist heroes in a rising tide of political and social pressure, and much more besides, contributed to the birth of what we know today as the American "comic book" format. So everybody is right, and you can argue for months about the relative contributions of any one factor, but in the end, all of it matters.

 

So there's my 2.

 

Arnold

[Forbush-Man]

My 2 cents is that nothing in history - nothing - is ever as simple as saying "Such and such is the direct inspiration for this," or that "this came from this source while this came from this source and that's the end of it." The fact is that all aspects of this discussion - pulps, comic strips, Big Little Books - as well as the rising interest in pop culture media at the time, the economics of the country in the 1930s, the need for escapist heroes in a rising tide of political and social pressure, and much more besides, contributed to the birth of what we know today as the American "comic book" format. So everybody is right, and you can argue for months about the relative contributions of any one factor, but in the end, all of it matters.

 

So there's my 2.

 

Arnold

 

 

Good response and I agree with you, there is no clear-cut "this came from that", all contributed (some sources more than others),............. correct me if I'm wrong here, ......but I don't see anything in your response about Victorian Books!

 

You been served!

 

 

 

 

Hi Arnold.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Well I didn't mention Victorian because they were so obviously a direct inspiration for the comic book while the others were such minor players that I felt it was redundant to even mention them.

 

[Rob]

There seems to be an affinity for market reports (I know it's a highlight for me every mid-April). Why not include more frequent reports in a monthly publication, like CBM? Even if CBM's material that month doesn't appeal to me, I still buy it for the market reports.

[the blob]

"while the others were such minor players that I felt it was redundant to even mention them."

 

smiley face nullifies above?

 

newspaper strips seem to be the most direct inspiration...although perhaps victorian era stuff inspired the strips

 

i guess it will depend on which victorian era items we're talking about

 

and which pulps or news strips

 

i see a lot of illustrations in pulps, albeit not "sequential" art so to speak

 

anyway, it's all good

 

how much more would it cost to add another 50-75 pages to the regular edition?

 

sadly, the new overstreet being an "event" becomes less and less the case every year

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Yes, smiley face nullifies above. I stand by my first, serious statement, that *everything* as a role to play historically in getting us to the comic books we know and love.

 

Arnold

[PovertyRow]

Well I didn't mention Victorian because they were so obviously a direct inspiration for the comic book while the others were such minor players that I felt it was redundant to even mention them.

 

 

That's a pretty good serve you got there yourself, Arnold! Too bad it had to be wasted on such an obvious statement!

[PovertyRow]

 

You seem to be rather super-hero centric on this, Friend Fuel. Also, you state The first Comic Books were mainly Newspaper strip reprints. Detective Danbecomes the first newstand Comic Book with new material and "direct inspiration for Siegal & Shuster to convert Superman into a Comic Book". Now between 1933 and 1938 Comic Books are basically funny characters, Science Fiction, Westerns, Cops & Robbers, ect. In October 1935, Siegal & Shuster's first work appears in New Fun Comics #6 and introduce Dr. Occult. Doctor Occult becomes Dr. Spector who, in More Fun Comics # 14 (October 1936) becomes the first Superman prototype (dons a costume). Action Comics # 1 gives us the full blown Super-Hero with the introduction of Superman.

 

While the facts are correct, I am not sure how you tie these facts in with Pulp. Of anything, it sounds like you are saying the "funny characters, Science Fiction, Westerns, Cops & Robbers, ect." don;t count for much and it is only the superhero that matters in your argument. Funny thing is "funny characters, Science Fiction, Westerns, Cops & Robbers, ect." pretty much sums up the Atom Age (just include horror and romance under that "ect" (sic) and we are set AA wise.

 

But then you make this statement: With the introduction of Superman Comic Books and costumed characters take off. Pulp Publishers, seeing the sales results, begin publishing their own Comic Books. This is getting murkier here. Apparantly sales results were sufficient to get the heretofore uninvolved pulp publishers involved?

 

Pulps provide the conten and material as well as the inspiration. What is the difference between "content" and "material"? Also, the "inspiration"? Again, are you seeing comics as only being legitimized by the superhero?

 

And how about those Penny Dreadfuls! You know there was one called BRAVE AND BOLD in 1903?