DC's Fundamental problem...

[CAMPER49]

"...so DC sends a space cop with a magic wishing ring and a Robin Hood cosplayer on a trip across the country because one of them didn’t know racism existed and the other didn’t know drugs existed, and the result is one of DC’s most highly regarded stories."

 

Love it! (thumbs u

[Maccai3]

"...so DC sends a space cop with a magic wishing ring and a Robin Hood cosplayer on a trip across the country because one of them didn’t know racism existed and the other didn’t know drugs existed, and the result is one of DC’s most highly regarded stories."

 

Love it! (thumbs u

 

[Comicopolis]

"...so DC sends a space cop with a magic wishing ring and a Robin Hood cosplayer on a trip across the country because one of them didn’t know racism existed and the other didn’t know drugs existed, and the result is one of DC’s most highly regarded stories."

 

Love it! (thumbs u

 

 

Those GL/GA issues are terrible.

[Prince Namor]

Batman is DC's most popular character for the same reason Marvel's characters are more compelling than the rest of the DC characters - there's a human element as a motivating factor behind their actions.

 

The FF, primarily through the despair of the Thing... Spider-man's responsibility in the death of his Uncle Ben... The Hulk's rage... The racism directed towards the X-Men mutants...

 

The Flash - whatta ya got?

Green Lantern - space policeman or whatever

The Atom - hmmm

Even Superman - he's an alien

Batman of course has the death of his parents and his revenge to make him a more compelling character...

 

I would agree with some of this assumption that it is the basic human needs and wants that makes certain characters easier to relate to. But I would say this shows up in the DC Universe as well.

 

- Superman: Yes, an alien. But if you look at it from his roots, you are dealing with the last surviving being of a doomed civilization who is adopted by a couple who attempt to make him one of their people. Yet due to his super-strength, and finding out about his origin, he comes across as a loner no matter how many friends he picks up over the decades. Can there be anything more 'human' than that about having to find your way on your own and keeping himself in check when he has the power of a god and could rule the world if he so desired? I think it is just DC Comics reinventing the character every few years that allows that point to get lost in the mix.

 

- Hal Jordan/Green Lantern: This may get lost in the many stories involving Hal, but in 'Emerald Dawn' it is revisited that he is strongly influenced by his father and his death as a test pilot. Wanting to be just like him, Hal goes down the same path of being a pilot that has no fear of taking risks. And he very much wants to demonstrate he is just as good as his father to honor his memory. But the rage inside him over this loss also is what makes him flawed, as he will take risks others would shy away from most probably because he is slightly self-destructive. Who has not run into someone like this that is haunted by family death, which helps form their personality and actions?

 

Now I haven't read the more modern versions of these characters. And I realize DC has changed the backstories on some characters to make them fit readership times. This may be where those changes have allowed them to become disconnected from reader reality. Though we are talking about super-beings across both companies that have heat vision, can fly, can generate webbing from their bodies, etc.

 

I agree with what you're saying, the difference being, that writers have come along to ADD that to the characters story. It's not the core of the character from day one, it's something, that in some instances, feels manufactured.

 

Miller's run on DD as a perfect example, is probably the best that character will ever be, but it was created after the fact, and really STILL doesn't explain WHY, in a rational way, he's decided to put on a pair of long underwear, and risk his life, not just jumping from building to building, but also taking on homicidal lunatics with an eye toward killing him. He was as close to being a DC character as Marvel has, and as great a run as Miller had on it, he STILL isn't in the same league as Spider-man, because his motivations are more manufactured after the fact.

 

What Johns has done with Green Lantern is somewhat the same, though certainly not as epic or memorable as Miller's DD (though very enjoyable and functional) utilizing his history as a way of forwarding and advancing his story. There's always a need for more Mark Waid-ish type of writing at the big two, and I say that without an ounce of cynicism. These are comics created for the masses, and when written by consummate professionals, they produce comics you can pick up randomly and read and enjoy.

 

But regardless of what they do, Green Lantern's real motivation is lame. And boring.

The Flash. Come on dude, why are you wearing that long underwear. Really?

 

Now Iron Man, another character that would've been just as well suited for DC in his creation, has benefited lately from the movies, thanks to the charisma of RDJ, and a new generation fascinated with mecha. Sure, the comics got a bump during the booze run (maybe the best it's ever been - good writing AND art), but it still wasn't enough to really catapult the character into serious A-list comic love. The movies have done that. Not the comics. The comics still sell.... blah. Iron Man the comic ranks in the #60-70 range on the Top 100's every month at roughly 30,000 copies sold, or about 20,000+ less than Saga....

 

Superman, the points you touched on were addressed in the movie, and here and there in the comics, but really, in it's heyday, Supes was like most DC superheroes, with very little in the way of character development, just... some story about a monkey gaining super powers and how they solve a problem like that or whatever. Superman, in the comics, has so much BLAH history under it's belt now, it's almost impossible to make that character compelling - other than address it in the movie and start from there with a new audience. Or do a mini-series written by Grant Morrison.

 

Spider-man, has that great history, though most of his motivation washed away in an editorial change that screwed it all up over 20 years ago... but they briefly touch on it in a Hallmark greeting card lazy writing sort of way or pull it out of their hat for an occasional tear jerk to liven up an otherwise dull idea they're trying to maximize in an anniversary/centennial/new#1 - the people who handle this character now, both in comics and the movies don't seem to understand the difference between drama and melodrama. Through it all though, the character perseveres, because of his origin - there IS a reason why he does what he does. And it's compelling to a degree regardless of how badly they handle the character.

 

How else can you explain ASM2 as one of the worst superhero movies ever made, still managing to do $200 million? (Though they had to keep it at the theaters to do it - 55+ days, some below even $100,000!)

 

Batman of course, works the best.

A human male, built up from his own hard work, on an endless quest for revenge for the murdering of his parents. A Dirty Harry that even when he strays off into commercial pomposity, is merely a reboot away from recapturing our admiration....

 

Ultimately, Marvel's characters tend to be a little more realistically motivated to do what they do, though they have plenty that don't... and having a group like the X-men with the whole created mutant racism thing helps...

But DC.... DC has Batman.

 

 

[Bosco685]

I appreciated the thorough, educational, and well thought out response.

 

The Flash. Come on dude, why are you wearing that long underwear. Really?

 

 

But sorry. I kept coming back to this one.

 

[ChrisInBaltimore]

 

Miller's run on DD as a perfect example, is probably the best that character will ever be, but it was created after the fact, and really STILL doesn't explain WHY, in a rational way, he's decided to put on a pair of long underwear, and risk his life, not just jumping from building to building, but also taking on homicidal lunatics with an eye toward killing him. He was as close to being a DC character as Marvel has, and as great a run as Miller had on it, he STILL isn't in the same league as Spider-man, because his motivations are more manufactured after the fact.

 

I always though DD's motivation was pretty clearly. HIs father was killed by criminals and now he wants to help stop criminals.

 

I'm not sure I'm following your point…Can you explain just your DD point a bit more clearly?

[Prince Namor]

 

Miller's run on DD as a perfect example, is probably the best that character will ever be, but it was created after the fact, and really STILL doesn't explain WHY, in a rational way, he's decided to put on a pair of long underwear, and risk his life, not just jumping from building to building, but also taking on homicidal lunatics with an eye toward killing him. He was as close to being a DC character as Marvel has, and as great a run as Miller had on it, he STILL isn't in the same league as Spider-man, because his motivations are more manufactured after the fact.

 

I always though DD's motivation was pretty clearly. HIs father was killed by criminals and now he wants to help stop criminals.

 

I'm not sure I'm following your point…Can you explain just your DD point a bit more clearly?

 

Clearly? If you missed the first issue, you could've read that book for 20 years and had no idea it even happened.

 

Daredevil's origin is one of the clumsier ones. They pack so many cliches from other comics into that first story, it almost looks like a Make-A-Comic. (Though the Wally Wood art was freakin' awesome.)

Matt Murdock spends one panel in the entire book mourning his dad.

Other than that he's joking around with the bad guys and starting a new business and admiring his new secretary.

The remorse, the pathos, the anger... the swearing of revenge...none of it is there.

 

The story pays lip service to the idea that the reason he becomes Daredevil is because he wants to get revenge against his dad's killers - but it never really follows up on it in any sort of consistent way until decades later when other writers dig into it.

 

Like I said, if you missed the first issue, you could've read that book for 20 years and had no idea it even happened.

 

With characters like Batman and Spider-man, it constantly goes back to that.... it's what made them who they were. It's a part of who they are.

 

With DD it's just a plot device.

[CAMPER49]

"...so DC sends a space cop with a magic wishing ring and a Robin Hood cosplayer on a trip across the country because one of them didn’t know racism existed and the other didn’t know drugs existed, and the result is one of DC’s most highly regarded stories."

 

Love it! (thumbs u

 

 

Those GL/GA issues are terrible.

 

I just love the way he worded the entire GL 76-89 story arc.

 

[Comicopolis]

 

Miller's run on DD as a perfect example, is probably the best that character will ever be, but it was created after the fact, and really STILL doesn't explain WHY, in a rational way, he's decided to put on a pair of long underwear, and risk his life, not just jumping from building to building, but also taking on homicidal lunatics with an eye toward killing him. He was as close to being a DC character as Marvel has, and as great a run as Miller had on it, he STILL isn't in the same league as Spider-man, because his motivations are more manufactured after the fact.

 

I always though DD's motivation was pretty clearly. HIs father was killed by criminals and now he wants to help stop criminals.

 

I'm not sure I'm following your point…Can you explain just your DD point a bit more clearly?

 

Clearly? If you missed the first issue, you could've read that book for 20 years and had no idea it even happened.

 

Daredevil's origin is one of the clumsier ones. They pack so many cliches from other comics into that first story, it almost looks like a Make-A-Comic. (Though the Wally Wood art was freakin' awesome.)

Matt Murdock spends one panel in the entire book mourning his dad.

Other than that he's joking around with the bad guys and starting a new business and admiring his new secretary.

The remorse, the pathos, the anger... the swearing of revenge...none of it is there.

 

The story pays lip service to the idea that the reason he becomes Daredevil is because he wants to get revenge against his dad's killers - but it never really follows up on it in any sort of consistent way until decades later when other writers dig into it.

 

Like I said, if you missed the first issue, you could've read that book for 20 years and had no idea it even happened.

 

With characters like Batman and Spider-man, it constantly goes back to that.... it's what made them who they were. It's a part of who they are.

 

With DD it's just a plot device.

 

You are going to make everybody read the first 20 years of DD now.

[Comicopolis]

"...so DC sends a space cop with a magic wishing ring and a Robin Hood cosplayer on a trip across the country because one of them didn’t know racism existed and the other didn’t know drugs existed, and the result is one of DC’s most highly regarded stories."

 

Love it! (thumbs u

 

 

Those GL/GA issues are terrible.

 

I just love the way he worded the entire GL 76-89 story arc.

 

Indeed

[Number 6]

What Johns has done with Green Lantern is somewhat the same, though certainly not as epic or memorable as Miller's DD (though very enjoyable and functional) utilizing his history as a way of forwarding and advancing his story. There's always a need for more Mark Waid-ish type of writing at the big two, and I say that without an ounce of cynicism. These are comics created for the masses, and when written by consummate professionals, they produce comics you can pick up randomly and read and enjoy.

 

But regardless of what they do, Green Lantern's real motivation is lame. And boring.

The Flash. Come on dude, why are you wearing that long underwear. Really?

 

I really like the way Darwyn Cooke handled Hal Jordon's motivation in DC: New Frontier - a pacifist driven by guilt over killing a Korean soldier just after the war ends, driven by that guilt to recklessly throw himself into test experiments at Ferris, as though he's attempting suicide by experiment. It just felt like the Waid-type writing you're referring to.

 

But as you say, that's all well after the fact, and that interpretation only held true for that limited series.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

 

Miller's run on DD as a perfect example, is probably the best that character will ever be, but it was created after the fact, and really STILL doesn't explain WHY, in a rational way, he's decided to put on a pair of long underwear, and risk his life, not just jumping from building to building, but also taking on homicidal lunatics with an eye toward killing him. He was as close to being a DC character as Marvel has, and as great a run as Miller had on it, he STILL isn't in the same league as Spider-man, because his motivations are more manufactured after the fact.

 

I always though DD's motivation was pretty clearly. HIs father was killed by criminals and now he wants to help stop criminals.

 

I'm not sure I'm following your point…Can you explain just your DD point a bit more clearly?

 

Clearly? If you missed the first issue, you could've read that book for 20 years and had no idea it even happened.

 

Daredevil's origin is one of the clumsier ones. They pack so many cliches from other comics into that first story, it almost looks like a Make-A-Comic. (Though the Wally Wood art was freakin' awesome.)

Matt Murdock spends one panel in the entire book mourning his dad.

Other than that he's joking around with the bad guys and starting a new business and admiring his new secretary.

The remorse, the pathos, the anger... the swearing of revenge...none of it is there.

 

The story pays lip service to the idea that the reason he becomes Daredevil is because he wants to get revenge against his dad's killers - but it never really follows up on it in any sort of consistent way until decades later when other writers dig into it.

 

Like I said, if you missed the first issue, you could've read that book for 20 years and had no idea it even happened.

 

With characters like Batman and Spider-man, it constantly goes back to that.... it's what made them who they were. It's a part of who they are.

 

With DD it's just a plot device.

 

Well, I've only read the modern Daredevil books and they do bring up the revenge. I haven't read a ton of silver Daredevils outside of a few Spider-Man appearances.

[Comicopolis]

Don't forget DD's brother.

 

[Bosco685]

Don't forget DD's brother.

 

 

In issue #16 (May 1966), he meets Spider-Man, a character who would later be one of his greatest hero friends. A letter from Spider-Man unintentionally exposed Daredevil's secret identity, compelling him to adopt a third identity as his twin brother Mike Murdock, whose carefree, wisecracking personality much more closely resembled that of the Daredevil guise than the stern, studious, and emotionally withdrawn Matt Murdock did. The "Mike Murdock" scheme was used to highlight the character's quasi-multiple personality disorder (he at one point wonders whether Matt or Mike/Daredevil "is the real me"), but it proved confusing to readers and was dropped in issues #41–42, with Daredevil faking Mike Murdock's death and claiming he had trained a replacement Daredevil.

 

That's a really silly part of Daredevil history.

[jools&jim]

 

Daredevil's origin is one of the clumsier ones. They pack so many cliches from other comics into that first story, it almost looks like a Make-A-Comic. (Though the Wally Wood art was freakin' awesome.)

Bill Everett...

 

This single panel by Everett is, in my mind at least, highly emblematic of the complex (for comic books at least) inter-relationship between Matt Murdock the lawyer, the hero, and the son who wanted to both honor his father's memory, and transcend his father's shortcomings:

 

 

But yeah...I agree that by issue #2 the back-story, and anything interesting which might have followed from it, was completely flushed. Too bad...

[Prince Namor]

Daredevil's origin is one of the clumsier ones. They pack so many cliches from other comics into that first story, it almost looks like a Make-A-Comic. (Though the Wally Wood art was freakin' awesome.)

Bill Everett...

 

This single panel by Everett is, in my mind at least, highly emblematic of the complex (for comic books at least) inter-relationship between Matt Murdock the lawyer, the hero, and the son who wanted to both honor his father's memory, and transcend his father's shortcomings:

 

 

But yeah...I agree that by issue #2 the back-story, and anything interesting which might have followed from it, was completely flushed. Too bad...

 

Why did I think that was Wally Wood?

Well it was awesome Bill Everett art!

[Maccai3]

"...so DC sends a space cop with a magic wishing ring and a Robin Hood cosplayer on a trip across the country because one of them didn’t know racism existed and the other didn’t know drugs existed, and the result is one of DC’s most highly regarded stories."

 

Love it! (thumbs u

 

 

Those GL/GA issues are terrible.

 

...of course they do

[MedicAR]

For once, I read the entire thread before commenting.

 

I enjoyed the original article even though it had its moments. Overall, I think the writer is likely a Marvel Zombie trying to beat down the Distinguished Competition. The comparison of FF #1 with it's Action Comics counterpart shows just how radical, intentionally or not, Marvel was when compared to DC at the time.

 

I am part of a pretty small minority that believes the Silver Age began with FF #1. It was something totally different. Sure, there were super team books before and sure, there were monster books before but FF mixed those elements in with more relatable problems/characters and a family dynamic. Combine that with the stories happening in real world New York City and a fairly tight continuity(at the time) and you have a whole new animal. If Action Comics #1 marked the beginning of the Golden Age by introducing the superhero, then Fantastic Four #1 should start the Silver Age by redefining the genre.

 

Most consider Showcase #4 to be the start of the Silver Age but I have long rejected this because it wasn't really "new" at all. It was still a guy that ran fast, but in a new costume. Green Lantern was still a guy with a power ring but now it came from space. The Justice League of America was just a new incarnation of the Justice Society. The big three, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman had been in continuous publication since their debuts and had changed very little from since the second World War. FF #1 was clearly different, title font not withstanding, and would have stood out like a sore thumb on a newsstand.

 

I notice that the author did not mention the Doom Parol and X-Men parallels. There once was a group of outcasts lead by a wheelchair bound professor. I am pretty sure DC wasn't copying anything on this one, as three months later, the X-Men came along. Doom Patrol did appear to be trying to add Stan Lee's "foibles" to their characters but I don't know that they were trying to be Marvel.

 

I always thought Crisis was just a Secret Wars rip off even if the idea was to unify the DC Universe into a more coherent narrative. Oh, and it was a better book all the way around. And who didn't think that the New Teen Titans were a blatant rip off the X-Men? I still think NTT was a superior book even if sales don't bear that out.

 

Seeing what works and copying it has been the cornerstone of the comic book publishing business from day one. When one publisher started packaging newspaper strips as giveaways, another came along and started selling them, then came new material for the books, then superheroes, then imitations of the most popular superheroes, then hiring the competition's best creators and so on and so on. It is the way the business works and every publisher that has had even the smallest modicum of success has done it at one time or another.

[bb8]

Daredevil's origin is one of the clumsier ones. They pack so many cliches from other comics into that first story, it almost looks like a Make-A-Comic. (Though the Wally Wood art was freakin' awesome.)

Bill Everett...

 

This single panel by Everett is, in my mind at least, highly emblematic of the complex (for comic books at least) inter-relationship between Matt Murdock the lawyer, the hero, and the son who wanted to both honor his father's memory, and transcend his father's shortcomings:

 

 

But yeah...I agree that by issue #2 the back-story, and anything interesting which might have followed from it, was completely flushed. Too bad...

 

Why did I think that was Wally Wood?

Well it was awesome Bill Everett art!

 

Wally Wood started pencilling in issue 5.

[kimik]

The article was definitely written by a Marvel zombie. While some of the points are valid, a lot of them are wishful thinking/from a certain point of view.

 

I don't see the FF #1 being so radically different from Showcase #4. Both GL and Flash have science/science fiction elements in their relaunches that were used by Lee as. Look at Barry Allen's origin - he was a scientist that had lightning strike chemicals that gave him his powers. Sure, GL was an alien ring, but look at the sci-fi theme everywhere at that time and it fits. Stan Lee used the same science/sci-fi backdrop for the marvel universe (primarily radiation), but with a more modern twist as he did it five years later.

 

WRT the drug stories in ASM and GL, I can remember seeing a post in another thread (likely BA) that GL was actually slated to come out first but Lee caught wind of it and moved the ASM arc up. He outmaneuvered DC on a number of fronts - like the 25 cent giants . In most cases it was so well done that whether you are a fanboy of either company you have to admire it.

 

The writer's commentary on DC's succession attempts with heroes in relation to Spider-man later in the article is laughable. Marvel tried the same thing with Spider-Man and met with the same success that DC did - you go back to the original. I guess the whole Doc Ock/Superior Spider-Man storyline of the past two years did not happen.

 

In any case, both companies have put out quality books and duds since the 60s. They will continue to do so.