Are there any ethics left in this hobby ?

[originalisbest]

Below is a perspective on today's "welfare queens" that might be something quite foreign to RMA and us spoiled americuns. Not political at all... let's call it "financial."

 

Interesting to see this thread morphed from ethics re: comic pressing, to a good ol' fashioned pressing thread, to (seriously?) discussions about minimum wage laws and how we 'mericuns have it TOO GOOD and should be happy to earn $1 to $2 per hour. I'll check my calendar and the coins in my pocket, but I think it's not 1947, a new car isn't $695 and a house isn't $5K (that's K = thousands.)

 

So about those welfare queens...

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-13/how-mcdonald-s-and-wal-mart-became-welfare-queens.html

[the blob]

People who make minimum wage in this country live like kings.

 

It's all relative.

 

When you strip down all the "I GOTTA HAVE IT!!!" nonsense, you can live quite comfortably on $2-$3/hour in most areas in this nation.

 

You just have to be willing to give up the "stuff."

 

If people can live on $118/month, or less, as in Bolivia (that's $3.93/day, or 49 cents an hour)...and they do, if not well according the American standards...then the $1200-$1300 min wage in America for a full time worker at $7.25/hour is veritably princely.

 

$10.10/hour? Hiring someone to bag comics, and being forced to pay them $10.10/hour, when the job is worth, at most, half that, means the job is unfilled, and those who could work...making something...now cannot, and make nothing...or, employers hire against the law.

 

Minimum wage laws are terrible, terrible burdens on any economy.

 

oh jeez louis. if you have virtually no housing costs (live in a $20,000 home with $400 yearly taxes let's say) I suppose a family of 4 can live on $1,000 a month and I only say that because I was watching some show about a family that did that. they all slept in the same bed to avoid heating the whole house, they all shared the same bath water every day to avoid water bills, they used circulars and what not they got in the mail as toilet paper...that sort of stuff. this is not living "comfortably" even if it is living better than in somalia or wherever. enough hyperbole.

 

I agree. Enough hyperbole.

 

We are all spoiled Americans, and don't understand how it's possible, because you imagine you cannot live without everything you're used to, and, indeed, not being able to do everything you want to do.

 

For example: "family of 4"

 

If you have no skills, so that you CANNOT make more than $2-$3 an hour, guess what...?

 

You have no business bringing children into this world!

 

 

The truth is, there are many, many places that will rent 3-4 bedroom houses for $600-$800/month. You can rent one of those rooms for $150-$200 a month.

 

If you only make $480/month, your taxes are going to be very, very low, and you can afford $150-$200 a month for rent.

 

And that's LIVING IN A HOUSE. There ARE other options besides that.

 

i'm not sure where i stand on the minimum wage because i think increases make more sense in some higher COL areas and maybe it should be for those areas to decide whereas $7.25/hr might be just fine for Alabama or wherever. $7.25 an hour in NYC has you on public assistance. Of course, there's an argument to be made that you should move the heck out of NYC if you're making $7.25 an hour (heck, maybe even if you make under $150K a year depending on who you talk to) and if enough people do that McDonalds will need to pay $12 an hour in NYC and my big mac might cost $7, but I guess that's life.

 

Higher minimum wages in higher "COL" areas are precisely why those places have a higher "COL." If I am an employer, and I am forced to pay people more than they are worth, I MUST charge higher prices for my products. I have no choice.

 

Most people, sadly, only think from the perspective of the employee, and seldom, if ever, think from the perspective of the employer.

 

And yes...if you have no skills, and are only worth $2-$3/hour, you have no business living in a major metropolitan area.

 

all of your thoughts work great in theory, but the fact is, the family of four exists and they're not going to get executed, so if they try to live on $2 an hour in this country...well, there's a good chance if they can't cut it they will simply rob you and me, etc. and then we can have third world chaos. sure, there's crime now, but let's multiply that by 100 when you have people actually going hungry (not that it doesn't happen here). latin america can be lovely, except kidnappings of anyone worth anything are pretty routine as the huge underclass is trying to figure out how to survive. perhaps you think the old USA would work fine with 100 million people in favella type situations, but i think our crime rates would get totally out of control. personally i don't want to have to hire a bodyguard and/or get driven everywhere (by a body guard), but that's what we did when i went to brazil in 1997 and that was at the insistence of my brazilian hosts.

 

"Higher minimum wages in higher "COL" areas are precisely why those places have a higher "COL." If I am an employer, and I am forced to pay people more than they are worth, I MUST charge higher prices for my products. I have no choice."

 

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

[originalisbest]

I had to resist responding last night (I wrote and deleted it) as politics and such are frowned upon talking about here, but I personally think it is disgusting how there are so many enormous pockets of wealth in this once beautiful land that has been terribly, terribly neglected, mainly because folks who benefit the most from free enterprise and (once great) infrastructure refuse to pay their pair share of taxes. Instead they'd rather spend the money to buy politicians and get what they want that way.

 

Don't disagree. Thought it worthy to speak up after I got through laughing up vomit over the $1-$2 per hour figure. But it's cool, RMA as an employer offering up such generous wages will most assuredly have prospective employees beating down his door. And if they don't? Gee, it must mean because we Americans are spolit, don't know how lucky we are, to have him offer us $1-2 per hour...

 

Anyone want to rent out part of my refrigerator box behind the new SuperTarget? I'm thinking of adding on a couple rooms -- got a friend in the shipping/receiving dept who says he may be able to hook me up!

[revat]

I think this is bordering precariously close to 'politics'? under the guise of economics?

[originalisbest]

People who make minimum wage in this country live like kings.

 

It's all relative.

 

When you strip down all the "I GOTTA HAVE IT!!!" nonsense, you can live quite comfortably on $2-$3/hour in most areas in this nation.

 

You just have to be willing to give up the "stuff."

 

If people can live on $118/month, or less, as in Bolivia (that's $3.93/day, or 49 cents an hour)...and they do, if not well according the American standards...then the $1200-$1300 min wage in America for a full time worker at $7.25/hour is veritably princely.

 

$10.10/hour? Hiring someone to bag comics, and being forced to pay them $10.10/hour, when the job is worth, at most, half that, means the job is unfilled, and those who could work...making something...now cannot, and make nothing...or, employers hire against the law.

 

Minimum wage laws are terrible, terrible burdens on any economy.

 

oh jeez louis. if you have virtually no housing costs (live in a $20,000 home with $400 yearly taxes let's say) I suppose a family of 4 can live on $1,000 a month and I only say that because I was watching some show about a family that did that. they all slept in the same bed to avoid heating the whole house, they all shared the same bath water every day to avoid water bills, they used circulars and what not they got in the mail as toilet paper...that sort of stuff. this is not living "comfortably" even if it is living better than in somalia or wherever. enough hyperbole.

 

I agree. Enough hyperbole.

 

We are all spoiled Americans, and don't understand how it's possible, because you imagine you cannot live without everything you're used to, and, indeed, not being able to do everything you want to do.

 

For example: "family of 4"

 

If you have no skills, so that you CANNOT make more than $2-$3 an hour, guess what...?

 

You have no business bringing children into this world!

 

 

The truth is, there are many, many places that will rent 3-4 bedroom houses for $600-$800/month. You can rent one of those rooms for $150-$200 a month.

 

If you only make $480/month, your taxes are going to be very, very low, and you can afford $150-$200 a month for rent.

 

And that's LIVING IN A HOUSE. There ARE other options besides that.

 

i'm not sure where i stand on the minimum wage because i think increases make more sense in some higher COL areas and maybe it should be for those areas to decide whereas $7.25/hr might be just fine for Alabama or wherever. $7.25 an hour in NYC has you on public assistance. Of course, there's an argument to be made that you should move the heck out of NYC if you're making $7.25 an hour (heck, maybe even if you make under $150K a year depending on who you talk to) and if enough people do that McDonalds will need to pay $12 an hour in NYC and my big mac might cost $7, but I guess that's life.

 

Higher minimum wages in higher "COL" areas are precisely why those places have a higher "COL." If I am an employer, and I am forced to pay people more than they are worth, I MUST charge higher prices for my products. I have no choice.

 

Most people, sadly, only think from the perspective of the employee, and seldom, if ever, think from the perspective of the employer.

 

And yes...if you have no skills, and are only worth $2-$3/hour, you have no business living in a major metropolitan area.

 

all of your thoughts work great in theory, but the fact is, the family of four exists and they're not going to get executed, so if they try to live on $2 an hour in this country...well, there's a good chance if they can't cut it they will simply rob you and me, etc. and then we can have third world chaos. sure, there's crime now, but let's multiply that by 100 when you have people actually going hungry (not that it doesn't happen here). latin america can be lovely, except kidnappings of anyone worth anything are pretty routine as the huge underclass is trying to figure out how to survive. perhaps you think the old USA would work fine with 100 million people in favella type situations, but i think our crime rates would get totally out of control. personally i don't want to have to hire a bodyguard and/or get driven everywhere (by a body guard), but that's what we did when i went to brazil in 1997 and that was at the insistence of my brazilian hosts.

 

"Higher minimum wages in higher "COL" areas are precisely why those places have a higher "COL." If I am an employer, and I am forced to pay people more than they are worth, I MUST charge higher prices for my products. I have no choice."

 

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

Well said. And more polite than I think is deserved. But hey, many folks are more polite than I am.

[originalisbest]

I think this is bordering precariously close to 'politics'? under the guise of economics?

 

Perhaps, but I am happy to see certain comments not get a free pass.

[Boba]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

[manetteska]

When you strip down all the "I GOTTA HAVE IT!!!" nonsense, you can live quite comfortably on $2-$3/hour in most areas in this nation.

 

Is that getting paid $2-$3/hour to work or just to be alive?

 

B/C if that is the working wage, that will not fly in "most" areas in this nation.

 

 

[revat]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

 

If people don't think that the a raise in minimum wage has any effect on the price of rent in Manhattan, they are very very wrong.

[Boba]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

 

If people don't think that the a raise in minimum wage has any effect on the price of rent in Manhattan, they are very very wrong.

 

The rents are so nuts already, how can that have an effect really?

You can't just let people starve or live on subways. There comes a point where humanity has to play a role, no?

[shadroch]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

 

Obviously, they should move to Bolivia, where the rent would decrease.

[Boba]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

 

Obviously, they should move to Bolivia, where the rent would decrease.

 

As would the number of people able to afford to eat there

[the blob]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

 

If people don't think that the a raise in minimum wage has any effect on the price of rent in Manhattan, they are very very wrong.

 

The rents are so nuts already, how can that have an effect really?

You can't just let people starve or live on subways. There comes a point where humanity has to play a role, no?

 

Minimum wage in NYC is $7.25, maybe they raised it to $8 recently...the minimum wage has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RENTS IN MANHATTAN (or any other high COL location) which are mainly influenced by the incomes of professionals, mostly finance/wall street types 9around me at least, in LA it will be a different dynamic) and those who service them (lawyers, personal trainers, call girls, etc.). the only people living on minimum wage in manhattan (1) live with their parents; (2) live in the projects; (3) live in some sort of rent controlled/section 8 situation; (4) are homeless and live in the park/in the subway or in a van down by the river; or (5) are nannies living in some back room of an apartment somewhere (and they usually make more than that).

 

a bump in the minimum wage MIGHT have some impact on rents in some hellhole like East New York or the South Bronx (although the area around Yankee stadium has gotten fashionable) where many of the people who do have jobs live on that little.

 

ok, the thread got political, let me tie it into comics...

 

 

In 1976 a minimum wage worker could buy a stack of comics every week, pay the rent, eat, smoke a few doobies/drink some Miller High Lifes and do a few other things we consider normal in the good 'ole USA. Now they for sure need to cut the stack of comics out of the equation, not if they're going to have cable TV and a decent smart phone situation.

[the blob]

You can't just let people starve or live on subways. There comes a point where humanity has to play a role, no?

 

--------

 

That's exactly it. Life in "Soilant Green" wasn't even all that great for the rich folks, never mind the poor folks.

 

People living on the edge of survival don't just roll over and die. At some point some of them will club you over the head to take your lunch and if there are A LOT of them it will make it that much easier. Honestly, I'm willing to pay more for my Big Mac to not need a body guard. I shouldn't be eating Big Macs anyway.

 

Honestly, I really don't understand all this right wing anger against people who actually WANT to work, but who just want to be paid enough to live borderline ok in america (not bolivia). I understand the umbrage over welfare checks and what not, but since when did the working poor become the villians?

[Dr. Balls]

What a tremendous burden indeed on the poor employer that someone should demand a minimum wage. Let alone a living one. Oh gee, if only we could get away with paying $1 to $2 per hour and avoid all these pesky "benefits".

 

Ahhh, entitlement philosophy. I hope posts like this signal the end of this thread, because it's spiraling down into politics quickly.

 

Want to earn more than minimum wage? Do better at your job or find another one, work harder, hustle more.

[Dr. Balls]

I think this is bordering precariously close to 'politics'? under the guise of economics?

 

+1

[Aces]

Really, you think the rent on a krappy 2 bedroom apartment in manhattan being over $4,000 is because of the $7.25 minimum wage, really? Not because junior investment bankers out of school bring in $250K?

 

To this point, I read this week how one of the most popular restaurants in NYC has to move because they are going to raise the rent to $650,000 annually (from $48,000). Nothing is safe, even the finest establishments can't afford the rents anymore

 

If people don't think that the a raise in minimum wage has any effect on the price of rent in Manhattan, they are very very wrong.

 

The rents are so nuts already, how can that have an effect really?

You can't just let people starve or live on subways. There comes a point where humanity has to play a role, no?

 

Minimum wage in NYC is $7.25, maybe they raised it to $8 recently...the minimum wage has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RENTS IN MANHATTAN (or any other high COL location) which are mainly influenced by the incomes of professionals, mostly finance/wall street types 9around me at least, in LA it will be a different dynamic) and those who service them (lawyers, personal trainers, call girls, etc.). the only people living on minimum wage in manhattan (1) live with their parents; (2) live in the projects; (3) live in some sort of rent controlled/section 8 situation; (4) are homeless and live in the park/in the subway or in a van down by the river; or (5) are nannies living in some back room of an apartment somewhere (and they usually make more than that).

 

a bump in the minimum wage MIGHT have some impact on rents in some hellhole like East New York or the South Bronx (although the area around Yankee stadium has gotten fashionable) where many of the people who do have jobs live on that little.

 

ok, the thread got political, let me tie it into comics...

 

 

In 1976 a minimum wage worker could buy a stack of comics every week, pay the rent, eat, smoke a few doobies/drink some Miller High Lifes and do a few other things we consider normal in the good 'ole USA. Now they for sure need to cut the stack of comics out of the equation, not if they're going to have cable TV and a decent smart phone situation.

 

Just some info since I live in NY state:

 

Beginning December 31, 2013, New York State’s minimum wage increased in a series of three annual changes as follows:

 

$8.00 on 12/31/13

 

$8.75 on 12/31/14

 

$9.00 on 12/31/15

[the blob]

I understand the push back against a $15/hr minimum wage and certainly $20+ like in some of Europe, heck even $10.10, but at $2 or $3 or even $7.25? It's not a matter of doing a better job sometimes, it's a matter of numbers of people looking for work and the # of jobs out there.

[Dr. Balls]

You can't just let people starve or live on subways. There comes a point where humanity has to play a role, no?

 

No. The notion of trying to take care of everyone, everywhere is unbelievably counterproductive. Enabling entire societies in every aspect of their lives does nothing to better ourselves as human beings. It creates an increasingly large group of people that take their lives for granted because they are handed all the basic necessities in life, and never aspire to do anything beyond the minimum requirement.

 

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Stop giving out freebies, and start showing people how to better their lives instead of doing it for them.

 

There are 7+ billion people on earth, and thinking that we should handhold every one of them who can't perform the most basic of human tasks is going to result in a catastrophic failure of our entire culture. Maybe not 10 years from now, but 500 years from now, we'll probably have a society of halfwits running everything into the ground.

[the blob]

Just some info since I live in NY state:

 

Quote:

Beginning December 31, 2013, New York State’s minimum wage increased in a series of three annual changes as follows:

 

$8.00 on 12/31/13

 

$8.75 on 12/31/14

 

$9.00 on 12/31/15

 

Yeah, I couldn't remember if it had just gone up to $8 or was about to at the end of the year.

 

I guess those guys working in the comic shop will be able to afford to buy more comics now.

 

Of course, $9 an hour is bordering on decent in Elmira, New York where you can probably buy a house for $25K, but it's all relative.