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Top 40 Copper in Overstreet

Started by Brock,

125 posts in this topic

GeeksAreMyPeeps

GeeksAreMyPeeps

Posted
Posted

Maybe we can assign the cusps the names of alloys. We'll start the Zinc Age with the advent of the Ultimate line and Walking Dead, and call the late '90s the Brass Age. (Of course, since bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, I guess that means we have to wedge a tin age somewhere around the late '60s/early '70s.)

 

I still like the Pyrite ("fool's gold") Age for the '90s.

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Brock

Brock

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Lots of great input here - thanks to all...

 

On the question of ages, I think it's always going to be fuzzy. In another thread I talked about my concept of "copperization"... Whatever the date, New Teen Titans feels stylistically like a Copper Age book to me... Though published in 1980, it represents (for DC anyway) the first sign of the coming Copper Age, and in a process unfolding over 3-4 years, the entire DCU was "copperized". I think we can see that the transition is largely complete at by the time Crisis on Infinite Earths #1 is published...

 

To me, this means that comic ages are - almost by definition - ill-defined around the edges. What was the last book published in the Golden Age? What was the first book published in the Bronze Age? These questions will prompt endless debate among collectors... Not to mention that asking those questions of 10 members here on the Boards will produce 11 opinions!

 

In my OP, I suggested a rough 1982(ish) to 1992(ish) timeline for copper... In that first post, you'll see the Top 40 list I put in Overstreet last year... It included a few books outside that 1982-1992 timeline, including DC Comics Presents #26, Batman Adventures #12 and John Byrne's Next Men #21.

 

In moving to a (somewhat) consensus-based Top 50, I've cut all of these based on the discussion in the thread, in favour of a stricter interpretation of the "edges" of the Copper Age - which also eliminates a few books suggested by others, like New Teen Titans #1 or #2, or Superman #75.

 

I'd also emphasize that - to me - this isn't a "once and for all" list, but rather a 2014 list...

 

Kir Kanos has suggested some Star Wars (#107 or #68) on the list, but my gut reaction I that while Star Wars is heating up, and may well be on the list next year if that trend continues, it isn't quite there this year...

 

Likewise, in last year's list in Overstreet, I had included Uncanny X-Men #282 - which I think reflects interest in that issue driven by the X-Men: Days of Future Past movie... since the movie was released, my sense (my opinion, I guess) is that the book has cooled down a little, and may not make the list this year...

 

I've made note of some of the other books (Punisher limited series #1, Spawn #1) which to me are dancing around the edge of this list, and we'll see where next year's takes us...

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valiantman

valiantman

Posted
Posted

Gonna keep sayin' it...

 

We talk '80s and we talk '90s in just about every discussion of these books...

 

So we should stop talking "Copper start" and "Copper end" dates and talk about the books themselves.

 

Top 40 of the 1980s

Top 40 of the 1990s

 

End the argument about start and end dates, and get back to the arguments for what books belong. (thumbs u

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Lots of great input here - thanks to all...

 

On the question of ages, I think it's always going to be fuzzy. In another thread I talked about my concept of "copperization"... Whatever the date, New Teen Titans feels stylistically like a Copper Age book to me... Though published in 1980, it represents (for DC anyway) the first sign of the coming Copper Age, and in a process unfolding over 3-4 years, the entire DCU was "copperized". I think we can see that the transition is largely complete at by the time Crisis on Infinite Earths #1 is published...

 

This has been the discussion for quite some time around here. No one argues about what started the Golden Age. But when we get to the Silver Age, we already start to see problems. Was it Showcase #4? FF #1? By the time we get to this "Copper" Age (and BRONZE Age wasn't an accepted nomenclature when I started seriously collecting in 1990), the blurring of the lines is complete.

 

Does NTT belong to Copper? Most certainly. It's definitely the vanguard of what changed in the 80's. But, we have Thor, which continued in its Bronze feel and look until Simonson in 1983. Batman remained essentially unchanged until 1986. Swamp Thing heralded a shift in 1983/84. Before that, it was same ol' 70's type storytelling. Then you have Daredevil, which alternately feels like the heart and soul of 70's storytelling, and at the same time kicks us headlong into the 80's, which is Miller's greatness. #168 is a Copper book. #167 is a decidedly Bronze book. And that's 1981. X-Men was Bronze all the way until Byrne left in 1981, and then meandered in Bronze (even returning to its first Bronze artist!) until Paul Smith appeared in 1983. Wolverine Limited isn't "new", it's essentially the logical conclusion of what had been building for him in X-Men for years. It's Bronze in tone, but Copper in look. But Ronin and Camelot 3000 are Copper through and through.

 

Is 1980 too early for Copper? Yes. Is 1984 too late for Copper? Yes. But where did it happen? No one knows, and no one will agree. I think the only thing anyone will agree on is that there were no Copper books before New Teen Titans, and there were no Bronze books after Dark Knight Returns.

 

And that's probably where the line should be drawn with the "naming" of the ages. Anything after that would just descend into silliness, as even Copper has.

 

In moving to a (somewhat) consensus-based Top 50, I've cut all of these based on the discussion in the thread, in favour of a stricter interpretation of the "edges" of the Copper Age - which also eliminates a few books suggested by others, like New Teen Titans #1 or #2, or Superman #75.

 

Superman #75 was published in November of 1992. It's solidly "Copper." It's the apex of what makes a Copper Age book.

 

I'd also emphasize that - to me - this isn't a "once and for all" list, but rather a 2014 list...

 

That is how I approached it, too...and even looking at it that way, you've got to seriously consider books like Primer #2...while a valuable book, Grendel has lost a lot of luster as a character over the years. Are people clamoring for Primer #2? I don't see it. Yes, it's expensive, but I hear people asking all the time for TTT #44, Swamp Thing #37, New Mutants #98...Primer #2? Not so much. And I love Grendel, and have subbed 4 of the 9.8s on the census.

 

Kir Kanos has suggested some Star Wars (#107 or #68) on the list, but my gut reaction I that while Star Wars is heating up, and may well be on the list next year if that trend continues, it isn't quite there this year...

 

Likewise, in last year's list in Overstreet, I had included Uncanny X-Men #282 - which I think reflects interest in that issue driven by the X-Men: Days of Future Past movie... since the movie was released, my sense (my opinion, I guess) is that the book has cooled down a little, and may not make the list this year...

 

I've made note of some of the other books (Punisher limited series #1, Spawn #1) which to me are dancing around the edge of this list, and we'll see where next year's takes us...

 

There's a Spawn #1 thread here that is seeing constant action. Likewise, Punisher Ltd #1 remains a consistently in-demand book, despite Punisher losing a lot of traction as a character. It's much more "key" than many of the other books on the list.

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maloney414

maloney414

Posted
Posted
Thanks to everyone for the ideas and contributions. I know we will never get 100% agreement on this, but I appreciate all the ideas and suggestions. I'm a big believer in crowdsourcing, and I think your input will make my efforts much stronger.

 

To accommodate all the great suggestions, I'm going to change my "Top 40" list to a "Top 50" list for this year's guide. I'll try to acknowledge everyone who took part in the Guide as well, though the final edits aren't mine to decide... I will use Board names, but PM me if you'd like me to use your real name (or if you'd rather not be mentioned as part of this discussion)...

 

So here's the list I'll likely run with this year:

 

Albedo #2

Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #361

Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #320

Batman #357, #386, #404, #428

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1

Batman: The Killing Joke

Bone #1

Caliber Presents #1

Comico Primer #2

Crisis on Infinite Earths #1

The Crow #1

DC Comics Presents #47

Evil Ernie #1

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

Harbinger #1

Incredible Hulk #271, #340

Iron Man #282

Marvel Graphic Novel #4

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

Miracleman #15

New Mutants #87, #98, Annual #2

Sandman #1, #8

Spectacular Spider-Man #64

Swamp Thing #21, #37

Starslayer #2

Tales of the New Teen Titans #44

Thor #337

Transformers #1

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

Uncanny X-men #221, #248, #266

Vampirella #113

Warrior #1

Watchmen #1

Wolverine (limited series) #1

X-Factor #6, #24

 

I have to submit my report to Overstreet by December 8, so I guess this is a "speak now or forever hold your peace" moment... But we can always do this again next year!

 

Still doesn't feel right to not have Miller Daredevil. Daredevil 181 was a huge book. When I think of Daredevil, I immediately think of Bullseye as his arc enemy because of that book.

 

 

I think I'm the only one whose made a case for X-Men 212 (1st Wolverine vs. Sabretooth), so maybe I'm wrong about this one. But again, I think Sabretooth was Wolverine's arch enemy and this book was the 1st published comic with them. Great cover too. Maybe it loses points because they had a better fight in 213???

 

But I would put it over 248. I love Jim Lee, but when I think Jim Lee X-Men, I usually think of the new #1. If they hadn't relaunched I might feel differently. But 212 feels more important since it's about the characters. I know you said it's not just about the value, but 212 does sell for a higher amount than 248. So the market seems to agree.

 

 

 

 

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Thanks to everyone for the ideas and contributions. I know we will never get 100% agreement on this, but I appreciate all the ideas and suggestions. I'm a big believer in crowdsourcing, and I think your input will make my efforts much stronger.

 

To accommodate all the great suggestions, I'm going to change my "Top 40" list to a "Top 50" list for this year's guide. I'll try to acknowledge everyone who took part in the Guide as well, though the final edits aren't mine to decide... I will use Board names, but PM me if you'd like me to use your real name (or if you'd rather not be mentioned as part of this discussion)...

 

So here's the list I'll likely run with this year:

 

Albedo #2

Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #361

Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #320

Batman #357, #386, #404, #428

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1

Batman: The Killing Joke

Bone #1

Caliber Presents #1

Comico Primer #2

Crisis on Infinite Earths #1

The Crow #1

DC Comics Presents #47

Evil Ernie #1

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

Harbinger #1

Incredible Hulk #271, #340

Iron Man #282

Marvel Graphic Novel #4

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

Miracleman #15

New Mutants #87, #98, Annual #2

Sandman #1, #8

Spectacular Spider-Man #64

Swamp Thing #21, #37

Starslayer #2

Tales of the New Teen Titans #44

Thor #337

Transformers #1

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

Uncanny X-men #221, #248, #266

Vampirella #113

Warrior #1

Watchmen #1

Wolverine (limited series) #1

X-Factor #6, #24

 

I have to submit my report to Overstreet by December 8, so I guess this is a "speak now or forever hold your peace" moment... But we can always do this again next year!

 

Still doesn't feel right to not have Miller Daredevil. Daredevil 181 was a huge book. When I think of Daredevil, I immediately think of Bullseye as his arc enemy because of that book.

 

Really, you can't have a Top Whatever Copper list and leave off all Miller DD, while including Johnny-come-latelies like Bats #386.

 

You just can't.

 

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Broke as a Joke

Broke as a Joke

Posted
Posted
Thanks to everyone for the ideas and contributions. I know we will never get 100% agreement on this, but I appreciate all the ideas and suggestions. I'm a big believer in crowdsourcing, and I think your input will make my efforts much stronger.

 

To accommodate all the great suggestions, I'm going to change my "Top 40" list to a "Top 50" list for this year's guide. I'll try to acknowledge everyone who took part in the Guide as well, though the final edits aren't mine to decide... I will use Board names, but PM me if you'd like me to use your real name (or if you'd rather not be mentioned as part of this discussion)...

 

So here's the list I'll likely run with this year:

 

Albedo #2

Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #361

Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #320

Batman #357, #386, #404, #428

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1

Batman: The Killing Joke

Bone #1

Caliber Presents #1

Comico Primer #2

Crisis on Infinite Earths #1

The Crow #1

DC Comics Presents #47

Evil Ernie #1

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

Harbinger #1

Incredible Hulk #271, #340

Iron Man #282

Marvel Graphic Novel #4

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

Miracleman #15

New Mutants #87, #98, Annual #2

Sandman #1, #8

Spectacular Spider-Man #64

Swamp Thing #21, #37

Starslayer #2

Tales of the New Teen Titans #44

Thor #337

Transformers #1

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

Uncanny X-men #221, #248, #266

Vampirella #113

Warrior #1

Watchmen #1

Wolverine (limited series) #1

X-Factor #6, #24

 

I have to submit my report to Overstreet by December 8, so I guess this is a "speak now or forever hold your peace" moment... But we can always do this again next year!

 

Still doesn't feel right to not have Miller Daredevil. Daredevil 181 was a huge book. When I think of Daredevil, I immediately think of Bullseye as his arc enemy because of that book.

 

Really, you can't have a Top Whatever Copper list and leave off all Miller DD, while including Johnny-come-latelies like Bats #386.

 

You just can't.

 

Agree that Daredevil 181 should be on the list. Take out Batman 486 and New Mutants Annual 2. It's not even a first appearance. First USA appearance really means nothing and the story itself is not memorable. 2c

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Broke as a Joke

Broke as a Joke

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Posted
It's never too late to make changes... My gut reaction, though, would be to choose DD 168 over 181. Thoughts?

 

I was figuring that DD 168 would be Bronze, while 181 was surely Copper. But if you are throwing 168 into the Copper age, then yes it would also be on the list. In fact I think Millers DD run deserves two books, so I would roll with 168 and 181.

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maloney414

maloney414

Posted
Posted
It's never too late to make changes... My gut reaction, though, would be to choose DD 168 over 181. Thoughts?

 

I was figuring that DD 168 would be Bronze, while 181 was surely Copper. But if you are throwing 168 into the Copper age, then yes it would also be on the list. In fact I think Millers DD run deserves two books, so I would roll with 168 and 181.

 

+1

 

I was thinking 168 was before your 1982 cut off. However, Daredevil 181 was 1982.

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ComicConnoisseur

ComicConnoisseur

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Posted
Here's my list:

 

Albedo #2

Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #361

Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #320 (while, yes, this is a valuable book, it is a very, very niche book, and very rarely asked for.)

Batman #357, #366 (Joker, Jason Todd in costume, SImonson cover, always been an important, desired book), #386, #404, #428

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1-#4 (this set should be seen as one unit.)

Batman: The Killing Joke

Batman: Vengeance of Bane #1 (since 2010 or so, the most important Bat book of the 90's.)

Bone #1

Caliber Presents #1

Comico Primer #2

Crisis on Infinite Earths #1, #8

The Crow #1 (Represented by Caliber Presents #1, not as significant to the general collecting public, outside of "movie hype.")

Daredevil #181 (what sort of top Copper list entirely omits Miller DD?)

Daredevil #227-#233 (consistently ranked as the finest Daredevil story ever written)

DC Comics Presents #47 (this book is currently "hot", but He-Man isn't all that relevant.)

Evil Ernie #1

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1, #21 (#21 has become a standard book of the era, and is easily the most sought after of the early books.)

Harbinger #1

Incredible Hulk #271, #340, #377 (this saw the culmination of several years worth of Peter David stories, and was the apex of the transition of the Hulk from a Marvel Also-Ran into a major starring character. If not for the fact that they printed a bazillion of them, this would be a relatively decent value book.)

Iron Man #282 (War Machine may have been important in the films, but it's been a while, and people forget.)

Marvel Graphic Novel #1 (the first MGN, one of the most important, and the culmination of Starlin's first Marvel Epoch.)

Marvel Graphic Novel #4 (New Mutants may be gaining popularity, but this book hasn't ever really set imaginations on fire.)

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

Miracleman #15

New Mutants #87, #98, Annual #2

Punisher Limited Series #1-5 (the series that made a star out of the Punisher belongs on ANY Top Copper list, above many, many of the others.)

Sandman #1, #8

Spawn #1 (the most important, by far, of the original Image books.)

Spectacular Spider-Man #64 (Cloak and Dagger just don't capture the public)

Spiderman #1 (Yes, probably the single most sought after Spiderman book of the 90's, it is ALWAYS asked for.)

Superman #75 (you really can't leave this off any of these lists. It is the most important Superman book of the entire 90's, even if the outcome was undone.)

Superman: The Man of Steel #18 (1st Doomsday. Ignored for years, but it has finally come into its own. It is quickly coming to be *the* Superman book of the Copper Age to own.)

Swamp Thing #21, #37

Starslayer #2 (as much as I love the Rocketeer, and Stevens, the character hasn't made much impact for a long time.)

Tales of the Teen Titans #44

Thor #337

Transformers #1

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

Uncanny X-men #221, #248, #266

Vampirella #113 (sadly, the only reason this has a place is because of its print run.)

Warrior #1 (No. It's a UK published book, and while very important to MM, and a much beloved personal favorite, it doesn't have a spot here.)

Watchmen #1-12 (again, should be considered as a unit.)

Wolverine (limited series) #1

X-Factor #6, #24

Great list. (thumbs u

I loved your argument for Hulk #377. Also I think Harbinger #1 could someday be thought of as the FF#1 of the Valiant Universe.

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B-Smooth

B-Smooth

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Posted
Here's my list:

 

Albedo #2

Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #361

Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #320 (while, yes, this is a valuable book, it is a very, very niche book, and very rarely asked for.)

Batman #357, #366 (Joker, Jason Todd in costume, SImonson cover, always been an important, desired book), #386, #404, #428

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1-#4 (this set should be seen as one unit.)

Batman: The Killing Joke

Batman: Vengeance of Bane #1 (since 2010 or so, the most important Bat book of the 90's.)

Bone #1

Caliber Presents #1

Comico Primer #2

Crisis on Infinite Earths #1, #8

The Crow #1 (Represented by Caliber Presents #1, not as significant to the general collecting public, outside of "movie hype.")

Daredevil #181 (what sort of top Copper list entirely omits Miller DD?)

Daredevil #227-#233 (consistently ranked as the finest Daredevil story ever written)

DC Comics Presents #47 (this book is currently "hot", but He-Man isn't all that relevant.)

Evil Ernie #1

G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1, #21 (#21 has become a standard book of the era, and is easily the most sought after of the early books.)

Harbinger #1

Incredible Hulk #271, #340, #377 (this saw the culmination of several years worth of Peter David stories, and was the apex of the transition of the Hulk from a Marvel Also-Ran into a major starring character. If not for the fact that they printed a bazillion of them, this would be a relatively decent value book.)

Iron Man #282 (War Machine may have been important in the films, but it's been a while, and people forget.)

Marvel Graphic Novel #1 (the first MGN, one of the most important, and the culmination of Starlin's first Marvel Epoch.)

Marvel Graphic Novel #4 (New Mutants may be gaining popularity, but this book hasn't ever really set imaginations on fire.)

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

Miracleman #15

New Mutants #87, #98, Annual #2

Punisher Limited Series #1-5 (the series that made a star out of the Punisher belongs on ANY Top Copper list, above many, many of the others.)

Sandman #1, #8

Spawn #1 (the most important, by far, of the original Image books.)

Spectacular Spider-Man #64 (Cloak and Dagger just don't capture the public)

Spiderman #1 (Yes, probably the single most sought after Spiderman book of the 90's, it is ALWAYS asked for.)

Superman #75 (you really can't leave this off any of these lists. It is the most important Superman book of the entire 90's, even if the outcome was undone.)

Superman: The Man of Steel #18 (1st Doomsday. Ignored for years, but it has finally come into its own. It is quickly coming to be *the* Superman book of the Copper Age to own.)

Swamp Thing #21, #37

Starslayer #2 (as much as I love the Rocketeer, and Stevens, the character hasn't made much impact for a long time.)

Tales of the Teen Titans #44

Thor #337

Transformers #1

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

Uncanny X-men #221, #248, #266

Vampirella #113 (sadly, the only reason this has a place is because of its print run.)

Warrior #1 (No. It's a UK published book, and while very important to MM, and a much beloved personal favorite, it doesn't have a spot here.)

Watchmen #1-12 (again, should be considered as a unit.)

Wolverine (limited series) #1

X-Factor #6, #24

Great list. (thumbs u

I loved your argument for Hulk #377. Also I think Harbinger #1 could someday be thought of as the FF#1 of the Valiant Universe

Great list. AND it includes Joe 21. :hi:

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fastballspecial

fastballspecial

Posted
Posted

Overstreet will always be conservative so it makes sense several books are missing.

 

Just a few books all pick out for discussion purposes.

 

ASM 238 - Always thought this book was overated, but I was never a huge Spider fan. It doesn't seem to carry as much revelance as it used too. Just my thought.

 

Joe 21 is a must. As many have said it is the book from that age period.

 

Harbinger 1 - I guess other Indy books which have lost importance are still there so I guess keep it. (That and I am scared of the Valiant minority on here.)

:eek:

 

DC 47 - I think a must add. See Joe 21 just a lesser scale. Large built in fan base.

 

X-men 221 - Add it in a year or two until then just a contender.

 

X-factor 5 - Lets see what happens with the movie definetly a strong contender to add.

 

New Mutants Annual 2 - Drop it. There is nothing there to sustain it currently yet.

 

Watchmen and DK are a no brainer adds to the list.

 

X-men 248 also makes me scratch my head as well.

 

I think a lot of us try to justify the books we like based on an event inside more then the definition of a key. I am just as guilty of this because its the reason I support Joe 21.

 

We tend to not question books that have been there forever are just accepted. To me the list should be more free floating. Several books coming and going every year.

 

 

 

 

 

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JTLarsen

JTLarsen

Posted
Posted

Warrior #1 (No. It's a UK published book, and while very important to MM, and a much beloved personal favorite, it doesn't have a spot here.)

 

You forgot to say why.

 

It's the first appearance of V For Vendetta--a perennial-classic graphic novel and a movie that both did well and persists in public awareness--and the first appearance of the modern version of a seminal character in superhero comics who has now been given high-profile treatment by Marvel Comics and whose collections by Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman will be on shelves for decades.

 

These TWO characters are better known than just about any other first-appearance character on that list...and they BOTH had their first appearance in the same issue. Awareness of this issue and its importance has grown gradually and continues to.

 

Not too many copper books more important and influential than this one.

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