A final dry heat pressing experiment to add to the file..it is NOT resto

[Ze-man]

It seems in the past few months we have all been privy to the discussion of every facet about the pressing of comic books. Well perhaps not EVERY facet.... but enough for all of us to realize it has changed the landscape of the market to one degree or another , depending on your stance.. this information will probably dictate how you respond to all of this... .. if at all.

 

Anyhow.. I am just trying to narrow down exactly how I feel about all of this, and how it affects the comics most of all.

We all seem to be somewhat curious as to wether or not a REAL resto expert can detect if a comic was NDP..or dry heat pressed with any degree of certainty.

And I have to say...I can see how if done properly.. there is no way to know for sure.

 

 

So I once again took a comic of mine to experiment on.

A comic that seemed to fit the criteria for sending in to have work done by a resto expert, before submittal to a third party grader.

Mainly it is a comic in HG shape... that exhibits only the types of flaws that do not break color.. mainly... minor wrinkles, indents, hard bends. overhang bends etc...and can be convinced to relax enough to not show any trace of the flaw ever being present.

 

The TOS #99 I used in these photos was not exactly HG.. the lower corner DOES have CBC's.. but the hard bend in it is a perfect example of what mightkeep a HG comic from grading 9.4..instead of 9.0.

I did not try to do anything to the lower corner , other then press it as it was.

 

I know for a fact that M. Nelson.. or Susan, or Chris F. are having a chuckle watching me try and duplicate what they do for a living.

With nothing more then a clothes iron.. and other items I have handy.

But I can say this...it took me only 5 minutes of work to do this.. and granted it was only the LRC I worked on. But it did work, and after inspection of the comic through a High power loupe.. I can see NO damage to the comic cover, or detect that it was BENT at all.

There might be signs.... who knows..

 

So in closing.. I can admit.. pressing has been around for a long time.. it only recently though has been brought to to EVERYONE'S attention here, that it is commonplace now in HG slabbed comics seems to be a fact we all must swallow..

As I now see it... the book is just "fixed"..plain and simple

Is my iron treatment really different then a thumbnail bending back a crease?.. I guess not.

So I will say for the record.. even though a pro restorer works on the book.. dry pressing of this kind ....IS NOT RESTO.

But rather... reminding the comic to return to its original state.

 

Here are the photos.

 

 

[Ares]

Maybey its me but in the after pictures there is no gloss and the colours look off.

[Ze-man]

Yeah, that is my lighting.

I need to keep the high power light in the same spot when I shot both photos.

But I took my after photos ....days after I did the work.

And did not re shoot them exactly the same.

 

 

Taking the photos in same light situations would help the comparison.

My fault.

Trust me.. the comic in hand looks the same... gloss wise.. no matter how you angle it.

Nothing was removed.. I place vellum over the comic.. and it comes away clean after the pressing.

 

Kewl?

 

Ze-

[Ares]

Yeah, that is my lighting.

I need to keep the high power light in the same spot when I shot both photos.

But I took my after photos ....days after I did the work.

And did not re shoot them exactly the same.

 

 

Taking the photos in same light situations would help the comparison.

My fault.

Trust me.. the comic in hand looks the same... gloss wise.. no matter how you angle it.

Nothing was removed.. I place vellum over the comic.. and it comes away clean after the pressing.

 

Kewl?

 

Ze-

Time to bust out an iron

[ComicSupply]

Ze,

 

I am curious. Did you have any steam coming out at all? Also, did you just put the iron straight on the book or did you use some sort of filter as not to burn the book?

[PovertyRow]

So I will say for the record.. even though a pro restorer works on the book.. dry pressing of this kind ....IS NOT RESTO. But rather... reminding the comic to return to its original state.

 

OK Zeman - and you know you are tops in my book. Can you explain what physical processes took place to "remind" the comic to return to its original state?

 

I mean - what aspects of the paper were affected for it to be so reminded. How does the heat interact with the paper composition? Obviously comehting changes. Something was reverted to a more original state? What was it or what were those?

 

To my mind, this IS restoration, and it speaks to a real issue I have with how people perceive restoration. Those light curls that can be undone with a finger are, to me, not restoration because those light curls really do not impact the structure of the paper. Paper DOES have a bit of leeway. It does not just lie dead flat. If it did your comics would remain perfectrly straight when you hold it by the spine and let gravity take over and bend the book down.

 

But a book with a true crease - even a non-color-breaking crease? This is not caused by the slight forces mentioned above. The paper has defintiely been impacted beyond its "leeway". And reverting such is, to me restoration. The INK is what is key in color break - so any designation on color break (a color breaking crease or a non-color-breaking crease) is actually going to address the inks - not the paper. This is not to say that the term "crease" does not address the paper. But what I am saying is you have to seperate the term "color breaking crease" and "non-color-breaking crease" into two things: the crease and tghe color break. The ink will dicatate the color break. The paper will dictate the crease.

 

So again - by what criteria do you say this is NOT RESTO.

 

[Ze-man]

Well...I originally did not want to go into the details of how I did it. As my intention was not to make a "how to press thread"

But it was so simple really...

 

Dry Iron.. no water in iron.. plug in the iron... get it warmish/hot to touch only.

Unplug.. it retains heat for awhile. I use glass as a backboard under cover.. and heavyweight sheets of drafting vellum as a buffer.

The rest I will leave to your imagination.

 

Ze-

[DiceX]

But you clean the dirt off a book with an eraser pad, and think that's *not* restoration?

[PovertyRow]

Well...I originally did not want to go into the details of how I did it. As my intention was not to make a "how to press thread"

But it was so simple really...

 

Dry Iron.. no water in iron.. plug in the iron... get it warmish/hot to touch only.

Unplug.. it retains heat for awhile. I use glass as a backboard under cover.. and heavyweight sheets of drafting vellum as a buffer.

The rest I will leave to your imagination.

 

Ze-

 

PHEW Zeester! I was just gonna post a nchastisement for not giving any specifics and was picturing people putting their clothes irons on the highest setting "

to insure that MINT look" and then you post the relevant info!

 

But I still say - if their is real impact removed their is retoration!

[DiceX]

Answer my question, you sidestepper.

[PovertyRow]

Answer my question, you sidestepper.

 

Err - whewre did I say iof you clean dirty off a book it is not restoration?

[Ze-man]

Pov.. no offense taken bro.. that is why I posted it. So we might look at it, discuss it. and hopefully ALL better understand what it actually is.

 

Too tired now to really go into detail and try to answer all the issues you raised in your post. But rest assured.. I will get to it on the morrow.

 

Let me ask you a few questions about your questions.

 

When we talk about a CBC.. or specifically a "hard bend".. do you feel it is possible for the Cover INK itself to bend and not break..... while at the same time the PAPER fibers under that ink become broken themselves..?

Because in my example... the cover inks are not broken.. YET the cover has a definate crease to it, that did not go away over the years.

 

Thoughts...?

 

Because if it IS possible for ink, and fiber to behave diferently.. then that is what I base my.."it is not resto" belief on.... in this specific scenario.

 

The mild dry heat I used to relax the paper fibers back to their original flat state was not what I consider harsh, intrusive, or restructering in any way.

As you know paper pulp itself is a mish mash of fibres pressed and squeezed together to form newsprint.

So if I can convince the papers fibres to relax enough through very mild pressure.. and heat.... and those fibers let go of the bend enough to return to their original flat state ... is that really resto..? under our current understanding of that elusive word?

 

Or do we need to create a new set of RESTO terms.. to fit the type of work done to the book?

Because I KNOW work of some kind was done to the book.. but exactly WHAT it is.. or WHAT to call it.. still has me stumped I guess.

 

 

Dangit!!... look how much I just typed...

I will get back with you later.. I am off to bed.

 

Ze-

[DiceX]

Answer my question, you sidestepper.

 

Err - whewre did I say iof you clean dirty off a book it is not restoration?

 

I'm looking.

Seems I recall talk of erasing dirt being OK because you were able to get a blue label.

 

 

 

This may take a while because there's no telling how you spelled it.

[PovertyRow]

Seems I recall talk of erasing dirt being OK because you were able to get a blue label.

 

Dice - I have never, ever, not even one super-drunken time remotley suggested that a Blue Label from CGC was a criteria for no restoration (as I define restoration).

 

Just go to the HOW TO SPOT RESTORATION thread pinned near the top and look at my posts - I actually detail how dry cleaning (aka erausre) is done! And I put it in the "How to spot RESTORATION" thread.

 

Ok? Huh?

 

Now can I buy you a drink?

[DiceX]

Seems I recall talk of erasing dirt being OK because you were able to get a blue label.

 

Dice - I have never, ever, not even one super-drunken time remotley suggested that a Blue Label from CGC was a criteria for no restoration (as I define restoration).

 

Just go to the HOW TO SPOT RESTORATION thread pinned near the top and look at my posts - I actually detail how dry cleaning (aka erausre) is done! And I put it in the "How to spot RESTORATION" thread.

 

Ok? Huh?

 

Now can I buy you a drink?

 

[PovertyRow]

Zeester, you said a mouthful there and one thing really hits home with me. I will break out your full post into individual pieces and attenmpt to address them from MY POINT OF VIEW - meaning it is just that - a point of view. To kind of paraphrase Stallone in Judge D - "I am not da law."

 

Anyway - to break out your post and address:

Because in my example... the cover inks are not broken.. YET the cover has a definate crease to it, that did not go away over the years..

 

Ink and paper do behave differently. They are totally different things. The question I would put back to you is this: A cover (assume we are talking covers) consists of two things: ink on paper. If there is a "ding" and the ink is not impacted, then what is left to be impacted?

 

flat state was not what I consider harsh, intrusive, or restructering in any way.The mild dry heat I used to relax the paper fibers back to their original

 

To me, the term "back to their original" is important. In fact, the concept of revertihng something back to the original state is a quite good definition of restoration. But, to pardon my "finger uncurl" idea of not being restoration - the type of simple crease you pictured defintely altered the state of the cellulose fibres for the page to reach that state. They were retrained, with heat AND pressure (not just heat), to present a similar LOOK but are, in fact, in a different state.

 

To me this really encapsulates the whole restoration definition. In a simple finger uncurl, the cellulose fibres have not really been broken or been altered beyond their initial tolerance. And a simple finger pressure uncurl DOES revert them to their original state, without any damage to the fibres. The finger uncurl simply depends on the inherent flexibility of the cellulose fibres. But a bend like you show is indicative of the fibres actually being knocked out of whack. And yes, a gentle heat press will cause them to lie flat again, but not in their original state.

 

Or do we need to create a new set of RESTO terms.. to fit the type of work done to the book?

 

YES YES YES! I haved been saying that exact thing for a long while now here. That knee-jerk "RESTO" or "FRANKENSTEIN" reaction shows little real understanding of restoration and its impact on the book.

 

And I will say something that may make me pariah here. The whole "Dealers sold undisclosed restoration and thus restoration is hated" type argument nis, to me, pure BS. Because the delaers may not be able to be tracked down, or because someone got a book they sent to CGC that came back with a PLOD is NO reason to damn the process of restoration itself. Blame the sellers. Don't blame the process. When was the last time you saw an undisclosed rerstoration book create an ebay id and try to sell itself?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Or do we need to create a new set of RESTO terms.. to fit the type of work done to the book?

Because I KNOW work of some kind was done to the book.. but exactly WHAT it is.. or WHAT to call it.. still has me stumped I guess.

 

 

 

"MANIPULATION?"

 

Damn manipulators...

[Harvey Dude]

So I will say for the record.. even though a pro restorer works on the book.. dry pressing of this kind

....IS NOT RESTO. But rather... reminding the comic to return to its original state.

 

 

Good work Ze-man. I am one of the few people here who do not get tired of this subject

when new information is offered.

 

Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary:

Restoration – a bringing back to a former condition or position

 

I don’t think Webster has it wrong but as I have said in the past, whether you believe it to

be restoration (which I do) or not, I just want it to be disclosed to me. CGC may not be able

to identify the pressing, but the fibers were in fact loosened to allow the book to revert back

to its original condition.

 

The discussions have changed my buying habits, especially after viewing nearmint's leap

in grade after pressing. I now do not pay large multiples for minor grade variances.

 

As an aside, the knowledge I have obtained and the scam sellers that I have been able to avoid

have made my forum experiences very rewarding. Keep up the informative postings.

[fantastic_four]

The whole "Dealers sold undisclosed restoration and thus restoration is hated" type argument nis, to me, pure BS.

 

Spoken like someone who hasn't plunked down a wad of cash on a high-grade book intended to be the gem of their collection only to find out later it's restored, meaning that it's not an untouched gem like you thought it was worth anything near what you paid for it.

 

When I got back into collecting in 2000 shortly after the first X-Men film was released, a few months into my re-emergence, I bought the book below for Overstreet NM. A mildly nauseating feeling crept over me a few days after the purchase when the thought occurred to me "hey, wait...what if this is restored?" So I asked the dealer, and he said "there's no way the book could possibly be restored--I bought it from a local comic shop in 1980, who had just picked it up from the original owner." That made me feel much better, but the nausea unsettled me, so I started to hunt down information on restoration detection. I couldn't find any beyond the simple Cicconi article in the 1992 OGG, but I eventually picked up some techniques from dealers, and realized that the dealer either lied, or was lied to--my book is definitely restored (there are two subtle bits of evidence of the trimming and pressing that are visible in the scan). The day I realized that was the day I became a permanent hunter of restoration detection information, as well as a permanent customer of certified comics worth enough to draw restoration to them.

 

It doesn't surprise me one bit that restoration is hated. My gut reaction to discovering my DD 1 was restored was to not just hate the process, but to fear it because I just couldn't find any reliable information to help me detect it. People aren't BLAMING restoration for anything--it's an just a process to inanimate matter--but they are nauseated by it, and the vast majority of high grade guys do fear it in the same way you fear getting hit by a truck (a restored comic) when you walk out into traffic (a con).

 

[Jayman]

--my book is definitely restored (there are two subtle bits of evidence of the trimming and pressing that are visible in the scan).

 

Could you point these out for those of us that would like to learn?