A final dry heat pressing experiment to add to the file..it is NOT resto

[fantastic_four]

Could you point these out for those of us that would like to learn?

 

Yes, although I won't point it out yet to give people a chance to think about it. The trimming should be very visible, but the pressing is more subtle and extremely difficult to see in the scan unless you're already skilled at detecting it. Look at the left side of the blue "remember when we introduced" banner near the spine for the evidence of pressing, and keep in mind that the book is PERFECTLY flat.

[Ze-man]

To me this really encapsulates the whole restoration definition. In a simple finger uncurl, the cellulose fibres have not really been broken or been altered beyond their initial tolerance. And a simple finger pressure uncurl DOES revert them to their original state, without any damage to the fibres. The finger uncurl simply depends on the inherent flexibility of the cellulose fibres. But a bend like you show is indicative of the fibres actually being knocked out of whack. And yes, a gentle heat press will cause them to lie flat again, but not in their original state.

 

 

OK... here is the crux of my reasoning on why I feel this type of work is not resto.

 

A simple finger curl.. or uncurl.. a thumb flick.. or bending, you know.. we all have done it.

The book has a bend, warp, or overhang.. we take our hands/fingers.. and unbend it.. re bend it.. bend it the other way..reshape it etc...

This process with our hands involves both HEAT.. and PRESSURE, from our fingers/hands

The same elements I used .. only I used an Iron to do my experiement.. granted the iron was just more proficient at doing it.

BOTH methods. HAND/FINGERS.. or Warm IRON....retrain.. or convince the paper fibers to go the other way.

Why is one NOT resto.. and one is?

 

I was originally from the camp that considered this type of work WAS RESTO..it involved a skill.. and tools.. But recently changed my view to "I was just mad that CGC could not police this for us" and certain people were working the system for their gain.

 

And after doing these experiments...seeing first hand how this process is done (albeit crudely)...led me to the conclusion I stated earlier.

Yes the comic fibers might have changed on a very minor level... but do they not change.. bend.. warp everytime a comic is mishandled?

So how can one actually say...when was the change severe enough to call it restoration.. -vs- mis handling, finger uncurl, etc..

 

Plopping a warm iron down on the comic...and removing a bend does indeed CHANGE the comic... but it always seems to come back to the current definition of Restoration... NOTHING was ADDED.. OR REMOVED (CT, Trimming, Glue etc..)...unless you call a bend/warp a tangible THING.

 

I can see from the lack of response to my post , everyone here is either just tired of talking about it. Or feels we are at an impasse.

 

Was still fun though, and I learned alot about what is being done to alot of our comics.

 

Ze-

[Jayman]

Could you point these out for those of us that would like to learn?

 

Yes, although I won't point it out yet to give people a chance to think about it. The trimming should be very visible, but the pressing is more subtle and extremely difficult to see in the scan unless you're already skilled at detecting it. Look at the left side of the blue "remember when we introduced" banner near the spine for the evidence of pressing, and keep in mind that the book is PERFECTLY flat.

 

From my meager experience spotting resto, I would assume the trim to be on the bottom edge and the pressing was prehaps for a spine roll?

Am I close?

[PovertyRow]

It doesn't surprise me one bit that restoration is hated. My gut reaction to discovering my DD 1 was restored was to not just hate the process, but to fear it because I just couldn't find any reliable information to help me detect it. People aren't BLAMING restoration for anything--it's an just a process to inanimate matter--but they are nauseated by it, and the vast majority of high grade guys do fear it in the same way you fear getting hit by a truck (a restored comic) when you walk out into traffic (a con).

 

OK, I confes to being intentionally dramatic (dramatist license) about the BS, but the gist I do believe.Otherwise, we would be seeing higher prices on PLODs, since there is nothing to fear and the restoration is disclosed right on the label.

 

What I don;t understand is the seeming readiness to remove pressing from the "restoration" umbrella. Are collectors now pressing their own books and do not want to be seen as restoring their books, so pressing cannot be restoration? Or buying books they know have been pressed but again, not want to have those books called restored?

 

Many forms of the pressing process are more invasive than a "small amount of color touch". It impacts a broader surface area of the book and in some cases, the whole book, covers and interior pages. At this point in time, to me pressing remains a restorative process and should be called restoration.

[PovertyRow]

Plopping a warm iron down on the comic...and removing a bend does indeed CHANGE the comic... but it always seems to come back to the current definition of Restoration... NOTHING was ADDED.. OR REMOVED (CT, Trimming, Glue etc..)...unless you call a bend/warp a tangible THING.

 

You know, Mister Zee, I still wonder how that definition has come into such popularity here. I certainly don;t agree with it. I consider removing a spine roll restoration but no piece has been added or removed. I consider cleaning staples restoration, but that does entail removing dirt or rust from the staples so that may fall under the "nothing added or removed" category.

 

Yes the comic fibers might have changed on a very minor level... but do they not change.. bend.. warp everytime a comic is mishandled?

 

Yes, and mishandling is one of the leading reasons for getting a book restored. ::rrriiiiiiiiiipppppp....oops!::

 

As far as the fibers changing on a minor level, a crease, even non-color brealing, will have broken or damaged fibers. Even pressing things back to the same relative shape is going to leave a weak point in that area. It is not as it was. It only looks that way.

 

HAND/FINGERS.. or Warm IRON....retrain.. or convince the paper fibers to go the other way. Why is one NOT resto.. and one is?

 

I gave my take on that when I said "Those light curls that can be undone with a finger are, to me, not restoration because those light curls really do not impact the structure of the paper. Paper DOES have a bit of leeway...But a book with a true crease - even a non-color-breaking crease? This is not caused by the slight forces mentioned above. The paper has defintiely been impacted beyond its "leeway". And reverting such is, to me restoration."

 

Was still fun though, and I learned alot about what is being done to alot of our comics.

 

Definitely fun and good to see there have recently been a number of protracted conversations that have remained civil throughout. Funny thiing about such protracted internet conversations. If they were converted to dialogue they would last maybe five minutes or ten, not very long at all!

 

I, too am learning from these. It is not often one gets to vocalize (even in writing) such ideas. They tend to go around in the brain but when others bring in ideas and questions you are forced to sort your thoughts and remember facts etc etc. Most enlightening!

[Harvey Dude]

Many forms of the pressing process are more invasive than a "small amount of color touch". It impacts a broader surface area of the book and in some cases, the whole book, covers and interior pages. At this point in time, to me pressing remains a restorative process and should be called restoration.

 

[FFB]

It doesn't surprise me one bit that restoration is hated. My gut reaction to discovering my DD 1 was restored was to not just hate the process, but to fear it because I just couldn't find any reliable information to help me detect it. People aren't BLAMING restoration for anything--it's an just a process to inanimate matter--but they are nauseated by it, and the vast majority of high grade guys do fear it in the same way you fear getting hit by a truck (a restored comic) when you walk out into traffic (a con).

 

It is my experience that those who hate restoration the most are those who understand the least about it. Everyone I've ever spoken to who was emotionally "against" restoration has softened or changed his stance on the issue as he has learned more about it. Have you guys experienced this? Mike, I think you and I talked about this phenomenon once or twice already.

[PovertyRow]

Mike, I think you and I talked about this phenomenon once or twice already.

 

Yes, I think we talked about it both at the pre-dinner dinner and the dinner-dinner.

[fantastic_four]

It is my experience that those who hate restoration the most are those who understand the least about it.

 

I agree! That's why I maintain that once restoration detection is a skill that is well-documented enough to be made available to anyone who wants to learn it, the fear of restoration should begin to decrease. The coin guys say a similar pattern occurred in their hobby--shortly after certification began in the 80s, restored coins dropped like a rock, but eventually, they normalized back to the level they were at prior to the introduction of certification.

 

A lack of new information on restoration detection was my biggest disappointment with the 2002 OGG. Susan's article was a near-exact reprint of the article from the 1992 guide, and it's still only a introduction to the topic.

[PovertyRow]

That's why I maintain that once restoration detection is a skill that is well-documented enough to be made available to anyone who wants to learn it, the fear of restoration should begin to decrease.

 

This is kind of a sore spot with me, although I agree with you. Back in 2002 I posted extensively in the How To Spot Restoration thread. Covered a lot of ground that is still valid. And I have often advised folks to hit the "quarter bins" and buy books of the same ages/publishers they collect and try for themselves. Just 20 or 30 bucks in an art supply store should equip folks with a nice armory of things to experiemnt with.

 

But only rarely do folks (like Zeman in this thread) actually take the time and trouble to perform an experiment.

 

The thing is, FF, a LOT of the answers can be found right now with a little time and some re-reading of these b oards. But I just don;t see people caring enough to really experiemnt (with some exceptions) and because of that, I really DO tend to get ticked when I see some of the resto thoughts being posted. I want to scream "Well what the *(&*(%^$% have YOU done to teach yourself restoration?". And if these folks are waiting for a book on in-depth resto and detection? It may be a long wait.

 

So I continue to say - EDUCATE YOURSELF. Examine the results. Jeeze, just buy a 25 cent book with a black cover or a red cover or whatever and buy a magic marker of similar color and retouch the book and examine the results. Buy a dollar Mars white eraser and try erasing some pencil or dirt from a quarter bin comic. Try removing and then putting back the staples in a quarter bin book.

 

Hell - most of your experiments can e performed on the same quarter book. But I don't see much of people doing that and I have to conclude that maybe complaining is more satisfying than educating.

 

(Sorry - but I mean - well - you know.)

[Ze-man]

Pov, you hit the nail on the head.

 

While it is possible to learn from reading about restoration.. the best way to learn about how to spot restoration is through trial and error.

While many aspects of extensive resto are quite involved.. And I would never want to try my hand at marrying a cover, or doing extensive CT, staple replacement...etc.. I do know my limitations in skill and time.

 

Minor Resto is not rocket science....Trimming, pressing, minor CT are all VERY easy... to at least try.. if only to see what it looks like when done improperly.

My personality seems suited to alchemy.. so I fart around with some reader comics. I guess since I work in various art fields for a living.. it might come easier for me to try and see what can actually be done with a set of given tools. And have a measure of success in my attempts.

 

And just for the record.. I NEVER intend to sell any book I have worked on...on my daughters health.. and if I do.. it is among a set of reader copies that are not worth a can of beans. I have messed around with the comics only to see how it is done, and to help educate myself when I look at books that I might buy in the future.

 

This pressing experiment post I made is just one of countless experiments I have tried.

I just posted this one because it seemed topical.

 

What cracks me up though... is MORE people have asked me about how I exactly pressed the TOS #99.. then have bothered to reply to this thread.

 

..wonder why

 

 

Ze-

[PovertyRow]

Pov, you hit the nail on the head.

 

While it is possible to learn from reading about restoration.. the best way to learn about how to spot restoration is through trial and error.

While many aspects of extensive resto are quite involved.. And I would never want to try my hand at marrying a cover, or doing extensive CT, staple replacement...etc.. I do know my limitations in skill and time.

 

Minor Resto is not rocket science....Trimming, pressing, minor CT are all VERY easy... to at least try.. if only to see what it looks like when done improperly.

My personality seems suited to alchemy.. so I fart around with some reader comics. I guess since I work in various art fields for a living.. it might come easier for me to try and see what can actually be done with a set of given tools. And have a measure of success in my attempts.

 

And just for the record.. I NEVER intend to sell any book I have worked on...on my daughters health.. and if I do.. it is among a set of reader copies that are not worth a can of beans. I have messed around with the comics only to see how it is done, and to help educate myself when I look at books that I might buy in the future.

 

This pressing experiment post I made is just one of countless experiments I have tried.

I just posted this one because it seemed topical.

 

It does surprise me though... how may people have asked me about how I exactly did the pressing of the TOS #99..in detail.

It is more people then have actually responded to this thread...

 

..wonder why

 

 

Ze-

 

Mister 26th Letter!

 

You speak well!

[DiceX]

What cracks me up though... is MORE people have asked me about how I exactly pressed the TOS #99.. then have bothered to reply to this thread.

 

Since you seem to imply I, or others may be hiding...I'll raise my hand.

Out of curiosity, I tried to do it with an iron after your first thread, but had absolutely no luck.

When I used the iron hot, it melted the ink.

When I tried it warm, it didn't do anything.

When I tried it somewhere in between, it put a permanent heat warp in the cover.

 

Even when it was hot, I couldn't get the NCBC out. It was still very visible.

You must have a magic iron or something, because it does not work for me.

Are you using starch?

I have no idea how you're doing it...so I asked.

Gather the villagers and light the torches.

 

Judging from my results, I don't believe that you are getting the creases out.

No matter how hot I get it, or hold it on the book, the crease remains.

**mental note: try using starch**

[sfilosa]

I'm assuming that the Trimming is at the Top.

 

Basically, it seems that the book has a bit of an overhang near the spine but by the time it gets to the right side, I can see the interior pages.

 

Was the book just PRESSED or PRESSED AND CLEANED as that is a VERY WHITE COVER?

[Ze-man]

... yeah you were among the many Dice , .. but it was not a pointy stick meant to be poked just in YOUR eye.

 

But rather I was surprised that no one wanted to talk about the topic.. in this thread.

 

Buy me a few beers(at least 6) and I MIGHT relate exactly how I went about my experiment.. and yes.. it did work. I think the photos bear that out. In person it looks even better. And of course you do realize I am a suuuuper genious too...with a magic iron..

 

By the way...I like expensive beer too..

 

Ze-

 

 

Oh.. and NO starch was used.. nothing added to the book.

[fantastic_four]

I'm assuming that the Trimming is at the Top.

 

Basically, it seems that the book has a bit of an overhang near the spine but by the time it gets to the right side, I can see the interior pages.

 

BINGO! Look at that upper-right corner...it looks to me like an X-acto cut without using a straight edge. I sense the subtle wavering of an unguided hand.

 

 

Was the book just PRESSED or PRESSED AND CLEANED as that is a VERY WHITE COVER?

 

I can't verify the cleaning, and my scanner is making it look a little brighter than it really is. The staples are a little loose, so I wouldn't doubt that it was disassembled prior to pressing and also cleaned at the same time. Jayman was correct--a spine roll was pressed out. The vertical creasing in the purple banner I was referring to is still there since it broke the color.

 

I feel totally justified in saying that it was the best money I've ever lost due to the large amount of incentive it instilled in me to not have it happen again. I'm not even sure the dealer I bought it from knew it was restored--I suspect he didn't. After this experience, I began to evaluate the effectiveness of other dealers in determining restoration, and after a year or two of talking with dozens of them, I eventually realized that almost NOBODY can detect it well except for a dozen or two people. This book is what motivated me to learn as much about grading and restoration as I have, and I'll probably keep it as long as I continue to collect high grade as a reminder of what I learned.

[Jayman]

I'm assuming that the Trimming is at the Top.

 

Basically, it seems that the book has a bit of an overhang near the spine but by the time it gets to the right side, I can see the interior pages.

 

BINGO! Look at that upper-right corner...it looks to me like an X-acto cut without using a straight edge. I sense the subtle wavering of an unguided hand.

 

 

Was the book just PRESSED or PRESSED AND CLEANED as that is a VERY WHITE COVER?

 

I can't verify the cleaning, and my scanner is making it look a little brighter than it really is. The staples are a little loose, so I wouldn't doubt that it was disassembled prior to pressing and also cleaned at the same time. Jayman was correct--a spine roll was pressed out. The vertical creasing in the purple banner I was referring to is still there since it broke the color.

 

I feel totally justified in saying that it was the best money I've ever lost due to the large amount of incentive it instilled in me to not have it happen again. I'm not even sure the dealer I bought it from knew it was restored--I suspect he didn't. After this experience, I began to evaluate the effectiveness of other dealers in determining restoration, and after a year or two of talking with dozens of them, I eventually realized that almost NOBODY can detect it well except for a dozen or two people. This book is what motivated me to learn as much about grading and restoration as I have, and I'll probably keep it as long as I continue to collect high grade as a reminder of what I learned.

 

Very interesting. I chose (wrongly) the bottom edge for the trim because I would have been looking for the straighter, sharper edge compared to the rest of the book. But now pointed out, I can see that the intent of a trim is not always to make a perfect straight edge.