How many lawyers do we have here?

[mrwoogieman]

Incidentally, here are the lawyers I know of on the boards:

 

Foolkiller

Fantasyfootballbono

Clobberintime

tth (not practicing currently it sounds like)

Mr. Woogieman

 

Anyone I've missed?

 

So now the list is:

 

Foolkiller (plaintiffs' securities lawyer)

fantasyfootballbono (commercial and IP litigator)

Clobberintime (bankruptcy and collections lawyer)

tth2 (in-house counsel)

Mr. Woogieman (?)

seank (worker's comp)

Jeffreykli (in-house counsel)

esquirecomics (sues the gubmint)

Captain_Tripps (sits at home and drools over comics all day )

1962 (?)

sullypython (who is this guy?)

 

Is that all of them?

 

 

I'm a gator too! commercial with an emphasis these days on construction.

 

October_Fire only has one more semester of law school left. He should go on the list too.

 

[1962]

I have a general practice with an emphasis on bankruptcy, construction and personal injury. The one area I refuse to dabble in anymore is family law.

[fantastic_four]

sullypython (who is this guy?)

 

High grade Marvel collector. Haven't seen him here in a while, but he occasionally beats me on ebay auctions. I'd love to have his CGC 8.5 FF #1!!!

[Sharkey]

sullypython (who is this guy?)

 

High grade Marvel collector. Haven't seen him here in a while, but he occasionally beats me on ebay auctions. I'd love to have his CGC 8.5 FF #1!!!

 

A few years ago I bought an FF 48 9.2 White, a raw Hulk 3, and a DD1 7.0 OWW from him. Good stuff. He was reasonable on the prices too. Didn't know he was an attorney.

[october]

Incidentally, here are the lawyers I know of on the boards:

 

Foolkiller

Fantasyfootballbono

Clobberintime

tth (not practicing currently it sounds like)

Mr. Woogieman

 

Anyone I've missed?

 

So now the list is:

 

Foolkiller (plaintiffs' securities lawyer)

fantasyfootballbono (commercial and IP litigator)

Clobberintime (bankruptcy and collections lawyer)

tth2 (in-house counsel)

Mr. Woogieman (?)

seank (worker's comp)

Jeffreykli (in-house counsel)

esquirecomics (sues the gubmint)

Captain_Tripps (sits at home and drools over comics all day )

1962 (?)

sullypython (who is this guy?)

 

Is that all of them?

 

 

I'm a gator too! commercial with an emphasis these days on construction.

 

October_Fire only has one more semester of law school left. He should go on the list too.

 

 

Thanks, makes me feel good to be in such illustrious company!

 

Now all I have to do is pass the bar.

[jokersrevenge]

I'm thinking about going to law school. I would try to do the night school thing if it was possible. Anyone have any advice about that approach?

[FFB]

I'm thinking about going to law school. I would try to do the night school thing if it was possible. Anyone have any advice about that approach?

 

I get asked this question a lot. Here's my standard advice for anyone who wants to go to law school. This advice presumes that you have already done enough research to determine that you actually want to go to law school. It is a significant financial and time commitment, not to mention the opportunity cost of being in school another three years instead of being in the workforce. And then there's no guarantee that a job will be waiting for you when you graduate.

 

1) Get good grades in undergrad.

 

2) Take an LSAT prep course from Princeton Review or Kaplan. DO NOT use one of the discount LSAT prep courses from a second-tier provider. They are a waste of money.

 

3) Buy one of those books that summarize the admissions standards of the various law schools. Apply to several schools, focusing mainly on the ones where you fall well within their average admissions standards. Apply to some additional schools with admissions standards that are slightly above your scores/grades too, just in case they let you in.

 

4) Choose and attend the best ABA-accredited, nationally ranked school (U.S. News & World Report rankings) that grants you admission, unless there is some reason why you don't want to go there (in which case, you probably shouldn't have wasted the time and money applying there in the first place). Many people say "Who cares about the rankings?" The answer is, "Law firm recruiting managers."

 

5) Avoid night school if you can, unless you just want to go to law school to go to work for yourself and open your own practice. Night law schools are not looked upon favorably by many firms. This is NOT universally true, but it is true in many cases. Job competition among law students is fierce even in a good job market, and the better your school and the better your grades in law school, the better your chances.

 

If you don't want to work at a mid-size or larger firm (or smaller "boutique" firms with excellent reputations), then the "prestige" factor becomes less important. But if you want to work at a major firm (particularly a nationally-recognized firm) or score a meaningful judicial clerkship, it is essential that you graduate with good grades from a top school. Law review never hurt anyone's chances either.

[tth2]

Great post - I can see the parallels in other professions as well, especially in New York.

 

Hi Dam, the only difference with "other" professions, particularly if you're talking about investment bankers, investment advisers, portfolio managers, etc., is that sometimes there IS a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. GS's global head of distressed debt is based here in HK (why, I don't know, if I were him I'd want to be in Japan), and word is that his take home bonus this year (admittedly a very very good year) is $30 million. There's no corporate lawyer in the world, only the plaintiff lawyers, who gets that kind of draw.

[tth2]

I'm thinking about going to law school. I would try to do the night school thing if it was possible. Anyone have any advice about that approach?

 

I get asked this question a lot. Here's my standard advice for anyone who wants to go to law school. This advice presumes that you have already done enough research to determine that you actually want to go to law school. It is a significant financial and time commitment, not to mention the opportunity cost of being in school another three years instead of being in the workforce. And then there's no guarantee that a job will be waiting for you when you graduate.

 

Sound advice, Scott. The only qualifier I would add is that sometimes you don't know if you'll like law school, or legal practice, until you actually get there. Some very intelligent people arrive and find they just don't like the ambiguity of the law or aren't suited to the analytical process. Others do fine in law school and then find actual legal practice to be abhorrent. I always told MoFo to stop hiring from Yale Law, because 80% of its graduates were completely unsuited for the grim realities of practice.

 

4) Choose and attend the best ABA-accredited, nationally ranked school (U.S. News & World Report rankings) that grants you admission, unless there is some reason why you don't want to go there (in which case, you probably shouldn't have wasted the time and money applying there in the first place). Many people say "Who cares about the rankings?" The answer is, "Law firm recruiting managers."

 

Amen! The job-finding world looks completely different to a graduate from a Top 20 school compared to non-Top 20 school. If you're not at a Top 20 school, you better work your butt off and finish high in your class and make law review, or hope that the legal job market is booming like in the late 90s. And where you went to school still matters years later if you're thinking of changing jobs, no matter how good you've proved yourself to be in practice. It's total CYA, no recruiter ever got fired for hiring a lateral from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.

 

5) Avoid night school if you can, unless you just want to go to law school to go to work for yourself and open your own practice. Night law schools are not looked upon favorably by many firms. This is NOT universally true, but it is true in many cases. Job competition among law students is fierce even in a good job market, and the better your school and the better your grades in law school, the better your chances.

 

I am not as broadbrush as you on this one. I think it really depends on which school, and how prestigious its night school program is. Georgetown Law, for instance, has a very well known night program and night students are treated equally with day students for things like law review, moot court, etc. As far as I could tell, there was no stigma attached to their night status when it came to hiring. Doesn't Hastings have a good night program?

 

But as you say, assuming you're going to night school because you need to keep your day job, then be prepared for the fact that you'll have to give the same effort as the day students (although stretched out over 4 years instead of 3, I believe), while juggling your day job. Can't be fun.

[Jeffreykli]

Jokersrevenge,

 

Generally, I'd agree with the advice of tth2 and FFB, but I'd also ask what type of law you think you'd like to practice.

 

If you want to do public interest law, then generally speaking, you don't need to go to a top school (although I'd definitely only go to an ABA accredited school).

 

Foolkiller can probably add to this, but if you want to do criminal law, based on my friends' experiences, it has more to do with interning at the DA's or PD's office and proving your worth, than what law school you attended.

 

I got an advanced tax law degree while billing 20 hours a week, and it wasn't fun. That translated into 12 hour days everyday, especially with studying.

[Captain Tripps]

Don't do it. There are far too many lawyers and it is a very cut throat, lots of wasted time type of profession. Unless you can somehow specialize in a very specific area (aviation law, maritime, intellectual property) and make a name for yourself, it's like you're a dime a dozen.

 

It can be intellectually challenging but so can playing rubik's cube. And you don't have to waste 4 hours siitting around in court for your case to be called/conferenced.

 

My advice, get into something regarding finances (investment banking, financial advisor, comics dealer, etc).

[tth2]

Jokersrevenge,

 

Generally, I'd agree with the advice of tth2 and FFB, but I'd also ask what type of law you think you'd like to practice.

 

If you want to do public interest law, then generally speaking, you don't need to go to a top school (although I'd definitely only go to an ABA accredited school).

 

Foolkiller can probably add to this, but if you want to do criminal law, based on my friends' experiences, it has more to do with interning at the DA's or PD's office and proving your worth, than what law school you attended.

 

I got an advanced tax law degree while billing 20 hours a week, and it wasn't fun. That translated into 12 hour days everyday, especially with studying.

 

Good points Jeff. Scott and I were definitely looking at it from a big firm perspective only. One thing I would add, though, is if you want to go to DOJ or a US District Attorney's office, the competition is fierce and your credentials need to be similar (if not better) as what you'd need to get into the litigation department of a big firm. A federal clerkship on your resume seems to be virtually required these days.

[tth2]

Don't do it. There are far too many lawyers and it is a very cut throat, lots of wasted time type of profession. Unless you can somehow specialize in a very specific area (aviation law, maritime, intellectual property) and make a name for yourself, it's like you're a dime a dozen.

 

It can be intellectually challenging but so can playing rubik's cube. And you don't have to waste 4 hours siitting around in court for your case to be called/conferenced.

 

My advice, get into something regarding finances (investment banking, financial advisor, comics dealer, etc).

 

Too true, Doug, too true.

[esquirecomics]

I often lecture at law schools, particularly with respect to giving advice on career choices in international and national security law. Law schools do very well at training law school graduates rather than lawyers. HOWEVER, the education one receives in law school is very useful. I know many people with law degrees who then enter journalism or financial fields. The thought process it teaches you can be applied to many different career paths. No one should go to law school simply because they can't think of something better to do, but not everyone has to go to law school because they want to be a lawyer. Of course, you need to be able to afford it!

 

Mark

[ComicBookGuy]

Joe, I teach 7th grade Science and Social Studies. I also am the head wrestling coach at my Middle School and the assistant at the High School. Yes, we do put in long hours. As for the summers off, well, i will be getting my first one this summer, and I ahve been teaching for 6 years. I just finfished my masters, which took 3 summers and along with taking other classes, have not had a summer off yey. I will enjoy my summer this year. But I still will do things for shcool in the summer. In between working on stuff for the next year and doing things for wrestling, I still probably do about 10-15 hrs per week on school related activities.

What do you teach Joe?

 

I teach 7th grade English and an arts class called Contemporary Communications. I've been teaching 13 years now and love it. I don't work in the summers anymore, but I used to until a few years ago. That two months without a paycheck is killer!

Congratulations on getting your masters.

Joe

[FFB]

5) Avoid night school if you can, unless you just want to go to law school to go to work for yourself and open your own practice. Night law schools are not looked upon favorably by many firms. This is NOT universally true, but it is true in many cases. Job competition among law students is fierce even in a good job market, and the better your school and the better your grades in law school, the better your chances.

 

I am not as broadbrush as you on this one. I think it really depends on which school, and how prestigious its night school program is. Georgetown Law, for instance, has a very well known night program and night students are treated equally with day students for things like law review, moot court, etc. As far as I could tell, there was no stigma attached to their night status when it came to hiring. Doesn't Hastings have a good night program?

 

No, Hastings doesn't have a night program. Georgetown does, but that's the exception, not the rule. I don't think I've ever even seen a resume circulated for a night student summer associate candidate at any firm where I've worked, nor has Elizabeth from her Davis Polk/Brobeck/Morgan Lewis days. I'm not saying that there are no fine candidates from those programs -- it's just that I never see them out here.

[FFB]

Joe, I teach 7th grade Science and Social Studies. I also am the head wrestling coach at my Middle School and the assistant at the High School. Yes, we do put in long hours. As for the summers off, well, i will be getting my first one this summer, and I ahve been teaching for 6 years. I just finfished my masters, which took 3 summers and along with taking other classes, have not had a summer off yey. I will enjoy my summer this year. But I still will do things for shcool in the summer. In between working on stuff for the next year and doing things for wrestling, I still probably do about 10-15 hrs per week on school related activities.

What do you teach Joe?

 

I teach 7th grade English and an arts class called Contemporary Communications. I've been teaching 13 years now and love it. I don't work in the summers anymore, but I used to until a few years ago. That two months without a paycheck is killer!

Congratulations on getting your masters.

Joe

 

Ditto, Arex. Congrats on the masters degree!

[arexcrooke]

Thanks guys!

It was worth it, esp financially. NC gives a 10% pay increase across the board for holding a masters degree. My wife and I both have our masters, so it helps make things more comfortable.She is working on her National Boards for Professional Teaching Standards. It is an exhaustive process, but if she gets it, it will be worth an extra 12% on top of her masters. She would be making at or a little more than $40,000 a year with only 8 years experience.

[october]

1) Get good grades in undergrad.

 

2) Take an LSAT prep course from Princeton Review or Kaplan. DO NOT use one of the discount LSAT prep courses from a second-tier provider. They are a waste of money.

 

3) Buy one of those books that summarize the admissions standards of the various law schools. Apply to several schools, focusing mainly on the ones where you fall well within their average admissions standards. Apply to some additional schools with admissions standards that are slightly above your scores/grades too, just in case they let you in.

 

4) Choose and attend the best ABA-accredited, nationally ranked school (U.S. News & World Report rankings) that grants you admission, unless there is some reason why you don't want to go there (in which case, you probably shouldn't have wasted the time and money applying there in the first place). Many people say "Who cares about the rankings?" The answer is, "Law firm recruiting managers."

 

Good advice, I will add a few things since I just went through all this 3 years ago. First off, undergrad grades do matter, but a high LSAT score is more important, believe me. Given the choice between a student with great grades and a mediocre LSAT score and a student with mediocre grades and a high LSAT, the majority of schools would opt for the second choice. The LSAT is simply a better tool for measuring someone's potential that UG grades are. UG grades just have too many variables including what school you went to, what major you had as well as the problem of grade inflation. High LSAT scores also look better as a selling point for a particular school.

 

Listen to Bono and take a top-shelf LSAT review. It won't be cheap, but it will be worth it. I decided on Kaplan and it helped a lot. They gave several practice exams during the course, including one the first day of class. The difference between my first test score and my score on the actual LSAT was a 15 percentile improvement. Without that I would have gone to a 3rd tier law school as opposed to a 1st.

 

Apply to a wide range of schools, I can't stress this enough. I was accepted almost immediately by a school that I thought was a longshot and was wait-listed at 2 I thought were automatic. In my case it might have been the disparity between my LSAT score and my UG grades (which were less than stellar), but you never know what schools are looking for.

 

Hope this helps....

[jokersrevenge]

Is the lsat similar to the mcat? anything specific ? I guess i need some study material ....