some questions...

[the blob]

When/where did the Golden Age DC hero "Air Wave" make his first appearance? He wears a green costume.

 

Also, unrelated..

 

 

How would one estimate "guide" value on a slabbed "rare" key restored golden age book? it's "apparent" VG with slight(p) restoration: piece added, tear seals, spine splits sealed, reinforced. cream to off-white pages.

 

it actually looks like a CGC 7.0 at first glance, but upon further inspection those spine splits are not fully sealed.

 

it's a book that guides for $750 in VG unrestored ($5K+ in 9.2), 1940 publication, super hero

 

just curious what fraction of guide folks would consider this here (not necessarily what i could get for it)

 

thanks

[dgillock]

When/where did the Golden Age DC hero "Air Wave" make his first appearance? He wears a green costume.

 

Air Wave's 1st apppearance is in Detective #60, I believe. He ran as a back-up through issue #137 according to OS.

 

As far as your second question, I'll leave that to others.

[Forbush-Man]

How would one estimate "guide" value on a slabbed "rare" key restored golden age book? it's "apparent" VG with slight(p) restoration: piece added, tear seals, spine splits sealed, reinforced. cream to off-white pages.

 

It got a "Slight" designation, with all the restoration you mention? Sounds more like extensive to moderate to me. I'd think Good value would be the most I would offer. There is a formula in Overstreet which gives the suggestive values for restored books, you can give a look see, I believe it is still there.

[CentaurMan]

Here's a much better restoration value guide, from Matt Nelson's excellent website (www.comicrestoration.com):

 

"Valuing restored comics

Below are general formulae that can be used to determine the value of restored comics. Multiply the number given with the unrestored value in the Overstreet to determine an estimated value. These numbers are based on Professionally restored comics. Books with Amateur work would be worth 15-20% less. These formulae serve only as a benchmark. Each book is unique and may vary in pricing

 

 

Silver Age app NM 9.4 app VF 8.0 app FN 6.0 app VG 4.0 app G 2.0

 

slight 0.15 0.25 0.50 0.70 0.80

moderate 0.10 0.20 0.40 0.50 0.60

extensive 0.05 0.10 0.30 0.40 0.50

 

Golden Age

 

slight 0.25 0.50 0.70 0.80 0.90

moderate 0.20 0.35 0.60 0.70 0.80

extensive 0.125 0.20 0.40 0.50 0.60"

 

Unfortunately, the chart doesn't format well in a post. I think you get the gist, though.

 

I've used these numbers from Matt's website for a couple of years now, and find that they do an excellent job of approximating restored book values. And they're intuitive, with SA restored books being worth less than GA, and with G/VG restored books not losing tons of value (while high grade stuff is killed).

[dgillock]

So, from my figuring, an "apparent" VG Golden Age with slight restoration that books for $750 unrestored would be valued at $600 (750 x .80) according to this formula. Seems a bit high to me, but I think Mr. Nelson probably knows more than I. Personally I'd be thinking more in the $450 to $500 range, but I'm a cheap-sake. In the end though, I think it would come down to how "key" the book is and how hard it is to find a copy. If it was a scarce key (like a More Fun), I don't think slight resto on a VG copy would make much of a difference at all in what it would sell for.

[Forbush-Man]

So, from my figuring, an "apparent" VG Golden Age with slight restoration that books for $750 unrestored would be valued at $600 (750 x .80) according to this formula. Seems a bit high to me, but I think Mr. Nelson probably knows more than I. Personally I'd be thinking more in the $450 to $500 range, but I'm a cheap-sake. In the end though, I think it would come down to how "key" the book is and how hard it is to find a copy. If it was a scarce key (like a More Fun), I don't think slight resto on a VG copy would make much of a difference at all in what it would sell for.

 

Think about what you feel you could sell the book for if you find you have to sell. I would think an apperant VG would go for Good to Good+ without too much objection, G/VG would be tops & possibly pushing it a little much. Therefore, I would be offering not much more than Good/ Good + and G/VG only if I really wanted the book a lot, and don't intend to sell for quit awhile. Just MHO.

[CentaurMan]

Well, in the case of the book you're looking at, I question whether "slight" is the appropriate description of the restoration. Once piece replacement is part of the mix, I automatically assume at least "moderate" resto. I would adjust the expected price downwards accordingly.

[the blob]

as for the level of resto, just reading the cgc lable

 

perhaps we're talking about a very teeny tiny piece, something that may not have even dropped a book from a VG to a G. i don't know what this looked like before, i get the feeling it's main problem was spine splitting

 

anyway, thanks for the advice. the numbers y'all gave, from "G" to 80% of VG were higher than I expected, but perhaps conceivable on this one.

 

question is whether i'd do it as a store item or put it up for auction and whether to set a reserve. i've decided to put most of my GA slabs up for sale, but not at "best offer", somewhere around OPG. if they don't sell, it doesn't cost me much to put them in my store. if they do, my wife will be happy i suppose. i've got a bunch of low grade unslabbed GA readers that may attract some traffic, i've decided i might as well put those up as auctions.

 

i'm disinclined to name the book, for some reason i'm not feeling like linking this ID to my ebay selling ID this week

[FFB]

While Matt's suggestions regarding value are interesting, the valuation that I use for a professionally restored comic book is this:

 

Restored value = the value of the book in its unrestored condition, plus the cost/value of the restoration services performed to the book.

 

For a comic with amateur restoration, I value the book like this:

 

Treat the "restoration" (i.e., color touch, tape, glue, etc.) as non-restorative defects and lower the UNRESTORED grade accordingly. In other words, if the book started out as an unrestored FN and someone applied magic marker to the book in a few spots and glued a tear seal shut with Elmer's Glue, I would ignore the "apparent" grade of the book, treat the book as an unrestored Fine as a starting point, and then deduct points from the book for the writing (color touch) and staining (glue) and pretend that the tear isn't sealed and come up with a revised grade, for example, VG+ or VG assuming that the tear isn't that big and the magic marker is present only in a few small spots. At that point, I value the book like this:

 

Value = original unrestored grade lowered to a new grade to reflect the defects added by the amateur work. The value of the book is the same as an unrestored book in the lower, revised grade. (VG or VG+ unrestored value, in the example given above.)

[FFB]

Well, in the case of the book you're looking at, I question whether "slight" is the appropriate description of the restoration. Once piece replacement is part of the mix, I automatically assume at least "moderate" resto. I would adjust the expected price downwards accordingly.

 

I think they only use Slight for extremely small piece replacement, like when a tiny bindery chip out of a corner has been squared off. For something that small, I don't have a problem with the use of Slight, but otherwise, I agree that most piece replacement should be considered at least Moderate.

[CentaurMan]

While Matt's suggestions regarding value are interesting, the valuation that I use for a professionally restored comic book is this:

 

Restored value = the value of the book in its unrestored condition, plus the cost/value of the restoration services performed to the book.

 

For a comic with amateur restoration, I value the book like this:

 

Treat the "restoration" (i.e., color touch, tape, glue, etc.) as non-restorative defects and lower the UNRESTORED grade accordingly. In other words, if the book started out as an unrestored FN and someone applied magic marker to the book in a few spots and glued a tear seal shut with Elmer's Glue, I would ignore the "apparent" grade of the book, treat the book as an unrestored Fine as a starting point, and then deduct points from the book for the writing (color touch) and staining (glue) and pretend that the tear isn't sealed and come up with a revised grade, for example, VG+ or VG assuming that the tear isn't that big and the magic marker is present only in a few small spots. At that point, I value the book like this:

 

Value = original unrestored grade lowered to a new grade to reflect the defects added by the amateur work. The value of the book is the same as an unrestored book in the lower, revised grade. (VG or VG+ unrestored value, in the example given above.)

 

Despite my endorsement of Matt's value grid, I think that your way is the most accurate method. Unfortunately, it requires some foreknowledge of the book's grade pre-restoration. In some cases you can obviously tell (i.e., anything with Extensive resto was likely Fair/Good at best), but in many cases (say, VF 8.0, Slight (P)) it's difficult to figure the starting point.

 

So I'll adapt my advice and say: Try to use FFB's methodology when you've got the data, otherwise use Matt's grid as a guide (maybe with an additional haircut if you think it's appropriate). One thing I think we all agree on: the Overstreet method is very flawed, and frequently leads to much higher prices than the market would actually absorb. Every time an eBay seller points to it as a way to value a restored book, I cringe.

[FFB]

While Matt's suggestions regarding value are interesting, the valuation that I use for a professionally restored comic book is this:

 

Restored value = the value of the book in its unrestored condition, plus the cost/value of the restoration services performed to the book.

 

For a comic with amateur restoration, I value the book like this:

 

Treat the "restoration" (i.e., color touch, tape, glue, etc.) as non-restorative defects and lower the UNRESTORED grade accordingly. In other words, if the book started out as an unrestored FN and someone applied magic marker to the book in a few spots and glued a tear seal shut with Elmer's Glue, I would ignore the "apparent" grade of the book, treat the book as an unrestored Fine as a starting point, and then deduct points from the book for the writing (color touch) and staining (glue) and pretend that the tear isn't sealed and come up with a revised grade, for example, VG+ or VG assuming that the tear isn't that big and the magic marker is present only in a few small spots. At that point, I value the book like this:

 

Value = original unrestored grade lowered to a new grade to reflect the defects added by the amateur work. The value of the book is the same as an unrestored book in the lower, revised grade. (VG or VG+ unrestored value, in the example given above.)

 

Despite my endorsement of Matt's value grid, I think that your way is the most accurate method. Unfortunately, it requires some foreknowledge of the book's grade pre-restoration. In some cases you can obviously tell (i.e., anything with Extensive resto was likely Fair/Good at best), but in many cases (say, VF 8.0, Slight (P)) it's difficult to figure the starting point.

 

So I'll adapt my advice and say: Try to use FFB's methodology when you've got the data, otherwise use Matt's grid as a guide (maybe with an additional haircut if you think it's appropriate). One thing I think we all agree on: the Overstreet method is very flawed, and frequently leads to much higher prices than the market would actually absorb. Every time an eBay seller points to it as a way to value a restored book, I cringe.

 

Yes, if the book is slabbed, it can sometimes be impossible to tell what the pre-restoration grade was. This is the reason I have said that I think that CGC and PGX should note their "pre-restoration estimated grade" or "grade range" if they're not sure of the exact pre-resto grade, on the label of a PLOD slabbed book.

 

Also, if the book was merely cleaned and pressed (which is true of many books), then it can be impossible to tell what the pre-restoration grade was even if the book is raw. There is always some guesswork involved and I am not sure that any system (and certainly not mine) would give an answer in every case. For a cleaned and pressed book, Matt's system is probably better than mine because the pre-restoration grade doesn't factor into it -- and therefore, one's inability to determine the pre-restoration grade would not necessarily pose a valuation problem.

 

And finally, I agree that the Overstreet formula is completely unrealistic.

[rjpb]

While FFB's formula may seem the "fairest" way to go (with perhaps a little extra thrown in for the effort to have the book restored) - I don't know that it should always be the way to go. Just as there are sometimes big rewards for slabbing or pressing or resubbing a given book, I think there are times when restoring could pay off bigger dividends. For example , say you have a valuable GA book with a completely split spine, which otherwise looks to be a solid FN - worth maybe $2500 in its current grade of 1.5. You spend say $500 to have the spine repaired, maybe even with a bit of color touch, and now its a 6.0 slight (P) restoration. Unrestored the book would be worth maybe 9-10K in that condition. Is it only "worth" $3000 in it's restored shape?

 

Many factors can influence the percentage of unrestored FMV that a slightly restored copy might recieve. If were talking about VGish copies of high demand books like Timleys there are times when you might recieve 100%. Also , while tear seals are undoubtly resoration, I'm sure there are many collectors who would prefer them to tape - which is apparently not restoration, and would pay the same , if not more for a lower grade book with a small sealed spine split than they would for the same book with tape on it.

[DarrenSmith]

Blob,

 

I think you need to also factor in what book it is. You describe it as a Golden Age Rare Super Hero Key Book, but you also state its unrestored 9.2 value guides at only $5,000. This seems a very odd price for a book fitting that description. What book is it?

 

Darren

[FFB]

While FFB's formula may seem the "fairest" way to go (with perhaps a little extra thrown in for the effort to have the book restored) - I don't know that it should always be the way to go. Just as there are sometimes big rewards for slabbing or pressing or resubbing a given book, I think there are times when restoring could pay off bigger dividends. For example , say you have a valuable GA book with a completely split spine, which otherwise looks to be a solid FN - worth maybe $2500 in its current grade of 1.5. You spend say $500 to have the spine repaired, maybe even with a bit of color touch, and now its a 6.0 slight (P) restoration. Unrestored the book would be worth maybe 9-10K in that condition. Is it only "worth" $3000 in it's restored shape?

 

Would such a book only get Slight (P)? I'd guess that it would at least get Moderate (P) with a completely rebuilt spine and color touch, but I'm not sure. In any event, I would say that $3,000 for that book does sound about right given that the spine was completely rebuilt on a FR/GD copy.

 

Many factors can influence the percentage of unrestored FMV that a slightly restored copy might recieve. If were talking about VGish copies of high demand books like Timleys there are times when you might recieve 100%. Also , while tear seals are undoubtly resoration, I'm sure there are many collectors who would prefer them to tape - which is apparently not restoration, and would pay the same , if not more for a lower grade book with a small sealed spine split than they would for the same book with tape on it.

 

True, but you probably wouldn't want to use the sales price on the taped copy as a comparison sample, given the strong aversion most people have to taped books. Also, the formula I'm suggesting doesn't have anything to do with comparing the price of a book with restoration to a book with tape.

 

Do high-demand VG restored copies of Timelys really achieve the exact same price that an unrestored VG copy of the same issue would get? Unless the VG restored copy started out as an unrestored VG or thereabouts, I guess I find that hard to believe unless the rarity of the book and the fact that such books never come up for sale are leading to anomalous results.

[the blob]

by "rare" i mean it's not something like a superman 8, batman 7 or whatever, which aren't particularly rare books, they pop up fairly frequently, just in demand enough to get $ in the market.

 

sorry if $5K isn't enough money for you, not that this is a $5K copy, even if unrestored

[rjpb]

FFB-

point taken regarding a reattached spine being moderate restoration - although like you I'm not sure as "pieces added" can get the "slight" designation. Still, restoration isn't quite the killer on low-mid grade GA that it is on Silver & Bronze where less than high grade copies are easily available in unrestored condition. It's all theoretical, but for many books I would expect even a moderately restored apparent 6.0 to sell for more than an unrestored 2.0, not full guide by any means, but even somewhat more.

 

While collectors do have an aversion to tape, it is unfortunately not uncommon on lower grade GA. I was using this example of why restored vs."unrestored" values can be tricky, especially on lower grade books where all sorts of structural defect and "eye appeal" factors can effect relative values.

 

As for Timelys - granted restored copies will generally sell for less than unrestored, but,especially in bidding situations, prices can sometimes be surprising for books with slight resto., and not just rare books. While the comparisons aren't exact I'll give a couple of examples from Heritage auctions: In march of last year they sold a Marvel Mystery 74 CGC 4.0 with slight (A) for $207 - two months later they sold an unrestored raw 4.0 ( although perhaps a tad overgraded) for $155. Back in 2002 they sold three copies of Marvel Mystery #44; a CGC 3.5 for $345, a CGC 4.0 slight (P) for $488.75, and a CGC 6.5 for 661.25 - as you can see the restored copy went for a higher percentage of guide than the two unrestored copies.

 

I picked Marvel Mystery, because it's a fairly common Timely title, and while there were other examples of restored copies selling for less than there unrestored counterparts - I think this illustrates that sometimes restored books can sell for as much as unrestored books.

 

Granted these are low enough dollar amounts that the unrestored value + restoration costs may not have been much less, and I realize the vagaries of auction bidding can lead to wild swings in percieved value from auction to auction and venue to venue, but I'm just arguing that what we think of as a "fair" way to assess the value of a restored book may not be reflected in what people are willing to pay.

[FFB]

Granted these are low enough dollar amounts that the unrestored value + restoration costs may not have been much less, and I realize the vagaries of auction bidding can lead to wild swings in percieved value from auction to auction and venue to venue, but I'm just arguing that what we think of as a "fair" way to assess the value of a restored book may not be reflected in what people are willing to pay.

 

That's true -- using auction results as a "real time price guide" can lead to some skewed data on the market value of certain books. That's one of the perils of using a service like GPAnalysis as a "price guide" or upper limit to what one will pay. Mark Wilson had an excellent post about this yesterday or the day before. All an auction result shows is the next bid level above what the second-highest bidder who saw the auction was willing to bid. That may not have been the max that the high bidder was willing to pay for the book, and hence, not its real market value.

 

I don't have my guide in front of me, but do you have any idea what the Slight (A) VG 4.0 copy of Marvel Mystery #74 guides for? I also wonder whether the book was already a VG copy before the slight color touch was added? Anyway, my valuation method is more of a rule of thumb than anything. I am sure that if we looked, we could find a thousand sales and auction results that don't bear it out. That just happens to be the way that I value restored books personally, since I don't like using Matt's system in all instances and because I think the Overstreet formula is ridiculously out of whack.

 

One other thing about books with pieces added getting Slight (P). My understanding is that when this happens, it is because only a very small piece is being added, such as when an abraded spine corner is being squared off with a 1/16th inch piece. An example is this book, which has a 1/16th inch piece added to one of the corners, a tiny tear seal in the overhang, and three small hits of color touch:

 

 

On a book like this, even though a piece is being added, it's not realistic or accurate to call it Moderate (P) because 99.9% of the book is original. But on a book with a rebuilt spine, I think that it would probably be another story. Maybe someone with a restored book with a formerly split spine could shed some light on the issue?

[rjpb]

Marvel Mystery #74 guides for $218 in VG, and being a post-war cover, but not late enough in the run where scarcity becomes a factor, it's not the kind of book that would normally sell at a premium in the low - mid grade.

 

Nice looking AF#15 - you bought it slabbed right? That's the sort of resto I don't understand - what would it have been before- an 8.0 at worst I'd guess, and from my understanding of SA values (which is somewhat limited) wouldn't it be worth more as an unrestored 8.0?

[FFB]

Marvel Mystery #74 guides for $218 in VG, and being a post-war cover, but not late enough in the run where scarcity becomes a factor, it's not the kind of book that would normally sell at a premium in the low - mid grade.

 

Nice looking AF#15 - you bought it slabbed right? That's the sort of resto I don't understand - what would it have been before- an 8.0 at worst I'd guess, and from my understanding of SA values (which is somewhat limited) wouldn't it be worth more as an unrestored 8.0?

 

No, I don't own it. Hammer does! That's the infamous ComicLink AF#15 where I thought I'd won it but got beaten to the punch. He sent me a scan to taunt me.

 

The prior owner who bought it from Heritage said it was likely a 9.2 before the resto. Judging from the way the book looks, I believe it. Take a look at the mega-scans from the Heritage auction where it sold. Don't look at the sales price though. You'll cry. I did. (Also, notice that you can't even really see any of the work even in the big scans.)

 

Link to Heritage Auction with mega-scans.