some observations re; ComicCollectors.net

[Forbush-Man]

I see no reason why any dealer should not allow a return on a CGC book so long as the book is returned in the condition as sent and the buyer assumes the return postage. It is simply a good business practice to keep customers' satisfied.

 

And returned within a specified time period, I presume. You might want to add that stipulation, I certainly would.

[Ze-man]

Marnin is matching his grading skills with CGC's, it's his word versus theirs. And there is nothing wrong with him doing that.

 

While I would love to address your entire post Bob, I will just respond to the above statement.

 

You say Marnin is matching his grading skills -vs- CGC's... fine, super, whatever..

He is entitled to do that. Goody for him. I agree.. he is not doing anything wrong.. I just happen to disagree with how he is doing it.

 

For the love of pete.. do not try and sell a CGC book... IN a CGC slab.. as anything other then what it is.

It IS a CGC book.. IN the CGC census.

It Is what it IS.

Take it or leave it.. buy it.. press it, resub it.. whatever..

 

You wanna call it something else.. DO IT... break it outta the slab.. give it a grade.. and sell it... as is.

It sure seems self serving, and hypocritical to disagree with a grade given by CGC ... proclaim the comic to grade higher by your grading standards.. but also ask an insane price that goes with the moniker of being Highest in the CGC Census.

We are all aware CGC HG slabs bring top $$, or else he would not keep them on his site.

 

I do not begrudge Marnin, or anyone else their right to disagree with CGC.. just do not try and use their name, and product in a listing as anything other then what it really is.

 

Ze-

[shrunkenhead]

Well, I'm not exactly sure that Marnin is seeking to profit on the CGC name. Yes, it does seem weird that he sells slabs, but he seems to charge generally the same multiple for raw books or slabs in grades x, y, and z. He seems to treat the slab as irrelevant in this regard. Also, Marnin will take a return on a slab with no questions asked. Regardless of what the collecting community thinks of his "outbursts," this seems to me to be a commendable policy, a policy that genuinely puts its money where its mouth is. If Marnin is willing to take returns on slabs, something so few of us are willing to do, then I don't see a problem with him grading a raw book as being "better" than the highest slab. You're given the choice to assess the book for yourself, and if you disagree, you can return it without difficulty.

[Ze-man]

Well, I'm not exactly sure that Marnin is seeking to profit on the CGC name. Yes, it does seem weird that he sells slabs, but he seems to charge generally the same multiple for raw books or slabs in grades x, y, and z. He seems to treat the slab as irrelevant in this regard

 

 

 

Well, I guess we will just have to disagree that he uses the CGC name to up his profits..it is hard to say if he would ask the same price for a RAW book, over a Slabbed book. Regardless of if he agrees with how CGC graded the book.. or not.

 

While it is good to hear that Marnin is a seller with a good reputation offering honest, and accurate grading ,that he offers full refunds /returns on slabbed books.

Those aspects of his selling methods were not what I necessarily took issue with, or was talking about in my previous post.

It was the specific MIS #1 auction that Harry brought up earlier in his initial post.

3. This is perhaps the topper. they claim that their self-graded copy of the white mountain MIS #1 is a 9.2 (despite the fact that it's sitting in a CGC slab with an 8.5 grade on it!!!!!) and even though there is a certified 9.0 out there, they lay claim once again to the highest graded copy. see the link;

http://www.comiccollectors.net/auction_detail.php?issue_id=2135&return_id=3&page=1

And then they take that book (of which 2 copies in CGC 8.5 have averaged a $2000 sale price over the past few years) and place a sale price of $6600 on it.

 

 

But in the end, as you say, take it or leave it. Buy from him, or do not.

Just thought it was odd, and aired my opinions.

 

Ze-

[esquirecomics]

I see no reason why any dealer should not allow a return on a CGC book so long as the book is returned in the condition as sent and the buyer assumes the return postage. It is simply a good business practice to keep customers' satisfied.

 

And returned within a specified time period, I presume. You might want to add that stipulation, I certainly would.

 

Yes, of course. Seven days is what I use for unslabbed books and no reason why not to use the same reasonable time period.

[burntboy]

Well, I'm not exactly sure that Marnin is seeking to profit on the CGC name. Yes, it does seem weird that he sells slabs, but he seems to charge generally the same multiple for raw books or slabs in grades x, y, and z. He seems to treat the slab as irrelevant in this regard

 

 

 

Well, I guess we will just have to disagree that he uses the CGC name to up his profits..it is hard to say if he would ask the same price for a RAW book, over a Slabbed book. Regardless of if he agrees with how CGC graded the book.. or not.

 

While it is good to hear that Marnin is a seller with a good reputation offering honest, and accurate grading ,that he offers full refunds /returns on slabbed books.

Those aspects of his selling methods were not what I necessarily took issue with, or was talking about in my previous post.

It was the specific MIS #1 auction that Harry brought up earlier in his initial post.

3. This is perhaps the topper. they claim that their self-graded copy of the white mountain MIS #1 is a 9.2 (despite the fact that it's sitting in a CGC slab with an 8.5 grade on it!!!!!) and even though there is a certified 9.0 out there, they lay claim once again to the highest graded copy. see the link;

http://www.comiccollectors.net/auction_detail.php?issue_id=2135&return_id=3&page=1

And then they take that book (of which 2 copies in CGC 8.5 have averaged a $2000 sale price over the past few years) and place a sale price of $6600 on it.

 

 

But in the end, as you say, take it or leave it. Buy from him, or do not.

Just thought it was odd, and aired my opinions.

 

Ze-

 

well since you agree with me - you are completely correct..........

 

my other comment to BOB would be; that it's probable that many of the books in question were NOT slabbed by CC.Net given their distinct and documented distaste for CGC (otherwise that would be way hypocritical).

 

given that likelihood, CC.Net has to be grading these books through the plastic holder. as such they CANNOT lay claim to the complete lack of any interior defects, nor be completely certain as to the lack of any light creases or indents on either cover. as such, to decree that your incomplete assessment of the book shows it to be better than CGC's grade in 90% of the instances in which you disagree with the grade, is dubious, at best, IMHO.

 

i've never said what they are doing is wrong or that they can't do what they want - just pointing out what struck me as odd practices......

 

and BOB, would you care to comment on the fact that they must believe that on this batch of books, of which they disagreed with the CGC grades more than 50% of the time, that 9 of 10 books in disagreement were UNDERGRADED. convenient, heh?

 

and what do you think about selling a book in a CGC 8.5 slab for 3 X's the going rate because they decided it was a 9.2???

[namisgr]

You raise some good points, Harry, but I suggest we stay out of the business of telling dealers what prices they should list their books for.

 

"Fly Eagles, fly, on the road to victory!"

[burntboy]

You raise some good points, Harry, but I suggest we stay out of the business of telling dealers what prices they should list their books for.

 

"Fly Eagles, fly, on the road to victory!"

 

again, i'm not saying that joe schmoe can't list his books for whatever he wants to.

but, i can always express my opinion that when i see something that strikes me as odd.........

 

i think regrading a CGC graded book thru the slab and coming up two full grades to a point where the book would theoretically be the unofficially highest graded copy is ODD.

 

but of course, this might just start a new trend.........i think maybe i'll try this when i get all my HG SA DC's back and list them for sale. "Burntboy's HG SA DC sale - you won't believe your eyes...."

[namisgr]

Once you've been in the business of dealing high-grade books for 25 years or so, you may have the right...

[Ze-man]

Once you've been in the business of dealing high-grade books for 25 years or so, you may have the right...

 

to do... what?

Re grade a CGC book through the slab to suit your own grading preferences?

 

This is beyond silly..

Even if a person calls and asks for the grader notes on a book, I still cannot see how someone even with 25 years of experience can say for sure what a comic grades at while looking through at it through the slab. If they feel a CGC book has been undergraded.. why do they not just crack the sucker open.. and post it for sale as they see fit... well we all know why.... it is not really prudent to crack out a book if you want to sell it for top $$.

 

To me the rub is having a seller want it both ways.. the premium $$, and safety that a CGC slabbed book normally brings in an auction.. yet they want even more out of the book because they disagree with how CGC graded it.

So they assess their own higher grade, and ask a price that goes hand in hand with perhaps known prices for Highest in Census sales to date.

 

Once again.. goody for them if they want to do that, yes he does offer refunds.. so no harm no foul. heck.. he might stand to make alot more money. Only the buyer can decide if that is how they want to buy comics.

 

But dont try and act like we do not have the right to say it sure seems odd, or bizarre that someone who openly badmouths CGC, still does not mind selling those slabs on their site... albeit with NEW higher grades, and higher prices to boot.

 

If he had the nads to back up his 25 year reputation, and known abhorrence for all things CGC.. then break out the books.. stand behind his different grading estimates.. and put them up for sale on his site RAW.

And if they are not his.. but on consignment.. then perhaps he should just sell the book as it is.

 

Well enough of this, I basically said the same thing again.

 

Time to start up our Superbowl Party.

 

Ze-

[namisgr]

While neither of us knows the particulars, I suggest that Marnin very likely graded the book raw, prior to its submission to CGC. He has owned many of the White Mountain and Bethlehem DC Sci-Fi books for a long time.

 

Make no mistake, I am neither condoning nor endorsing the practice of referring to a raw book as the "highest graded copy", and instead would prefer an approach in which someone selling a raw book that they have graded higher than anything in the CGC census says exactly that. While we are hurling criticisms at this practice, I would like to lodge a complaint for the widely used practice of referring to a slabbed book as "highest certified copy", or "best in census". For a book with a multiple copies at the highest grade given, I feel that these claims have a misleading aspect to them, particularly in light of the possibility that another copy at that grade may have superior page quality. Just my preference.

[nearmint]

While neither of us knows the particulars, I suggest that Marnin very likely graded the book raw, prior to its submission to CGC. He has owned many of the White Mountain and Bethlehem DC Sci-Fi books for a long time.

 

Are you suggesting that Marnin submitted the book to CGC?

[shrunkenhead]

While neither of us knows the particulars, I suggest that Marnin very likely graded the book raw, prior to its submission to CGC. He has owned many of the White Mountain and Bethlehem DC Sci-Fi books for a long time.

 

Are you suggesting that Marnin submitted the book to CGC?

 

A number of the high-end books on Marnin's site are consignments. It's probable that he saw a lot of these books raw, and then they were slabbed due to the wishes of the consignor, regardless of Marnin's preferences. I believe Marnin said as much about one of his Spidey auctions awhile back.

[nearmint]

Perhaps. Just seems like we're guessing quite a bit here.

[baklo]

FWIW, Marnin recently mentioned to me, in the process of a recent purchase from him, that he hadn't personally submitted a book to CGC in perhaps over 3 years.

[blazingbob]

Marnin has had books CGC'd by the auction house selling his books. For example his Mass Spidey's were slabbled by Bill Hughes for the JP-the-Mint Auction. In this case Marnin wanted his grades put on the books. Now many of you can call that Ego, his customers may feel more comfortable with his grading assessment. Either way, we all know that he has an issue with three guys telling him that his grading doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

Given more thought I agree with the Highest Graded copy statement, however he is entitled to list on his site Highest graded copy by CC.net. Given that he's been around for over 30 years why doesn't his opinion of what he's graded count? I have stated to customers that a particular book may be the highest graded copy I've ever owned or graded. I have a database to back it up, should I generate a census of Highgradecomics.com for viewing to be invalidated because CGC didn't grade them? That's like saying that Sotheby's or many auction houses could not claim that a particular book they are selling is the best copy they have ever seen.

 

I would also like to point out the CGC registry game is directly related to the Highest graded copy distinction. I hope you ALL realize that the registry is just a pond of money to be mined by Heritage for auction purposes. Finding the highest grade set which is basically delivered on a silver platter by the register enables the auction house to wine and dine that person with offers ($$$$$$) to sell that set. Of course the collector wins but so does the auction house from commissions.

[Aman619]

isnt that what auction houses do? And dont dealers use info as to who owns what to sweettalk and cajole their collections from them (when they are ready to part with them, that is?)

 

Back to Marnin, IMO he can only claim "Best copy I've seen or owned". "Highest graded copy" is now associated with CGC-grading, in the minds of collectors. By using that particular phrase, he is trading on the CGC association.

 

for better AND worse, we are now in the "CGC age of comics", Marnin has a legitimate grievance that his grading expertise (and business model) has been adversely affected. But calling a CGC 8.5 a "Marnin 9.2" and using the HGCopy line is deceptive. If he did not INTEND to deceive, then he needs to rethink his business plan to deal with the negative effect CGC has had on his business model. Using THEIR terminology for HIS gading is wrong and misleading.

[awe4one]

"Highest graded copy" is now associated with CGC-grading, in the minds of collectors. By using that particular phrase, he is trading on the CGC association.

 

Who says? He could have used the reference before CGC. Last I checked the term wasn't solely CGC's...

 

I guess PGA shouldn't use the term either?

 

Jim

[blazingbob]

So we are in the "Can't Grade Comics" kind of zone? As if all grades prior to November 1999 are null and void because of the Grading company? And purple/blue labels based on "is it a mile high - color touch ok" vs "non pedigree - color touch bad" are acceptable?

 

Highest graded copy is not a Phrase owned by CGC. It's part of the "Grading package" to aid the seller and put a spin on the book so that you get excited. It's all marketing baby!

[Aman619]

to both of you: No I do not believe CGC trademarked the phrase. It just developed as a result of the census. And we all agree its colloquial phrase with no legal bearing, nor is it 100% accurate nor does it hold much long-term value as more copies ger graded by CGC.

 

But dont argue naiively that the phrase Highest Graded copy DOES NOT refer specifically in the collective comics collecting business to Highest Graded copy BY CGC!!! It never existed before CGC and the census. Bob, I never heard YOU or any other dealer use that expression. "Best Ive ever seen" or Best Ive ever owned", "Considered Best copy out there", sure, but NEVER "Highest GRADED copy!!"

 

Graded by WHO exactly before CGC came along with 'professional 3rd party' grading.? GRADED COPY is a reference to CGC and is only a few years old.

 

cmon.....