Do restored AF#15s grow on trees? Here's a 9.4 Extensive (P) copy!!!

[FFB]

Here's another new one on ComicLink -- a 9.4, trimmed, with extensive professional restoration.

 

Looks like a gorgeous book. This is one where I wish I could tell what the grade of the book was before it was trimmed and restored. I think that the $10,000+ pricetag is probably too high for a trimmed book with extensive P restoration, but I don't really have any sense of how to value the book without knowing the pre-resto grade.

 

Assuming a pre-resto grade of 2.0 (if pieces were added it couldn't have been much higher) and $2000 in present value of restoration done to the book, using my formula to value restored books (unrestored value plus present value/cost of resto services), the book is worth about $4K. The problem with that valuation is that if the book were priced at $4K, it would fly off the site within an hour, so that's too low. Something needs to be added to the price to reflect the fact that the end result is a sweet looking copy of a high demand book. Maybe $5,500-$6,000 as FMV?

[sfilosa]

The simple way to value it is:

 

How much would it cost you to buy a Good AF #15 and then cost to have restored (including trimming) to make it look perfect.

 

Considering what was done to the book (especially the trimming), does it matter if it was Poor or a Very Fin?. The book has basically been recreated and the trimming is not reversible.

 

To me, that books a joke.

[FFB]

The simple way to value it is:

 

How much would it cost you to buy a Good AF #15 and then cost to have restored (including trimming) to make it look perfect.

 

Considering what was done to the book (especially the trimming), does it matter if it was Poor or a Very Fin?. The book has basically been recreated and the trimming is not reversible.

 

To me, that books a joke.

 

That's what I was saying about my restoration valuation model. I discussed it in the golden age forum a couple of weeks ago and the way it works is just what you said.

 

In looking at this book, I have realized that the problem with using that model is that anytime you try to restore a GD condition book up to NM, you're going to get varied results even with the best professionals doing the work. Maybe one GD book can be restored up to FN (for example, a book with magic marker writing on the cover), and maybe another one (with missing pieces, creases, and spine stress) can be restored all the way up to NM. For a book that comes out looking 9.4, I think a good helping of luck is involved and the value of the piece should reflect that.

 

Of course, another wrinkle with valuing this book is that it is trimmed (which I don't consider to be "restoration" -- I consider trimming to be "pieces missing"). Maybe the answer is that it's only really worth the restored VG- value? Then we're talking about a really low value. But again, the problem with that is that for this particular book, I think it would get snatched up immediately at a low price, so the FMV has to be higher than that.

[sfilosa]

Obviously, the value will be what it sells for.

 

I know that doesn't help, but to me, there is NO WAY to tell what condition it was in. We are talking about extensive restoration and TRIMMING (which I agree is a piece missing, not restoration, therefore qualified grade).

[burntboy]

Obviously, the value will be what it sells for.

 

I know that doesn't help, but to me, there is NO WAY to tell what condition it was in. We are talking about extensive restoration and TRIMMING (which I agree is a piece missing, not restoration, therefore qualified grade).

 

i'm surprised by both of your comments regarding Trimming - NOT being restoration.

 

that certainly is NOT the way CGC looks at it. i have books that were only trimmed and they sit in purple colored slabs, not green ones.

 

i did (and still do for that matter) always wonder whether CGC downgraded for this process, as well. one would assume not, since it would be a double whammy to have the book considered restored and then have the nice new looking edges also be considered as missing pieces.........

 

insofar as the pricing is concerned, as scott has pointed out in the past, restored AF 15's in mid grade get a surprisingly high percentage of the unrestored value.

the two 9.0's that sold got about 15% of the unrestored 9.0's that have sold. they were slight and moderate resto's, however. so if you went with just 10% of comparative unrestored value you could be looking at $15K (doug's white mountain) or $8500 of the only other gpa registered 9.4 sale.

 

the $10K doesn't seem too out of whack. i'm betting someone would grab it at $7500.

 

(but scott, you don't want a restored copy....... )

[1962]

Cripes, somebody actually bought that Frankenbook for $8900

[FFB]

Obviously, the value will be what it sells for.

 

I know that doesn't help, but to me, there is NO WAY to tell what condition it was in. We are talking about extensive restoration and TRIMMING (which I agree is a piece missing, not restoration, therefore qualified grade).

 

i'm surprised by both of your comments regarding Trimming - NOT being restoration.

 

that certainly is NOT the way CGC looks at it. i have books that were only trimmed and they sit in purple colored slabs, not green ones.

 

i did (and still do for that matter) always wonder whether CGC downgraded for this process, as well. one would assume not, since it would be a double whammy to have the book considered restored and then have the nice new looking edges also be considered as missing pieces.........

 

insofar as the pricing is concerned, as scott has pointed out in the past, restored AF 15's in mid grade get a surprisingly high percentage of the unrestored value.

the two 9.0's that sold got about 15% of the unrestored 9.0's that have sold. they were slight and moderate resto's, however. so if you went with just 10% of comparative unrestored value you could be looking at $15K (doug's white mountain) or $8500 of the only other gpa registered 9.4 sale.

 

the $10K doesn't seem too out of whack. i'm betting someone would grab it at $7500.

 

(but scott, you don't want a restored copy....... )

 

I'm not saying that trimmed books shouldn't get the PLOD. I am simply saying that "trimming" a book isn't the same thing as "restoring" a book because you're not "restoring" it to its original appearance. You're cutting away pieces of the book without replacing them in their original form. The book hasn't been restored - but it has been altered to make it appear to be higher grade than it was in its unrestored state. Susan Cicconi and Tracey Heft both agree that trimming is not restoration. Having said that, whether or not it meets the definition of restoration does not mean that it should or should not go into a purple label slab to differentiate it from altered books.

[FFB]

Cripes, somebody actually bought that Frankenbook for $8900

 

That's an aggressive price, but is indicative of what Steve and I were discussing earlier about valuing a book like this. Assuming you have a nice, complete, un-marked-up copy of AF#15 in GD condition and would pay $2,200 or so to have it restored professionally, if you got lucky with the results and wound up with a CGC 9.4, it would probably not be accurate to ascribe a market value to the book following a strict "pre-restoration value plus present value of restoration services" price to the book. More food for thought on the topic of valuation of restored books, I guess!

[RustyStaple]

Cripes, somebody actually bought that Frankenbook for $8900

 

That's an aggressive price, but is indicative of what Steve and I were discussing earlier about valuing a book like this. Assuming you have a nice, complete, un-marked-up copy of AF#15 in GD condition and would pay $2,200 or so to have it restored professionally, if you got lucky with the results and wound up with a CGC 9.4, it would probably not be accurate to ascribe a market value to the book following a strict "pre-restoration value plus present value of restoration services" price to the book. More food for thought on the topic of valuation of restored books, I guess!

 

Will this result in more collectors going this route?

[DKB]

I have every intention of having a really nice restored AF 15 and ASM 1 (cracked open 7.5 - 8.5) being the books in my raw collection. Someday when I'm rich I'll have slabbed 8.5s to accompany them. At least, thats my intention for as long as a PLODs value gets so slammed.

[FFB]

Cripes, somebody actually bought that Frankenbook for $8900

 

That's an aggressive price, but is indicative of what Steve and I were discussing earlier about valuing a book like this. Assuming you have a nice, complete, un-marked-up copy of AF#15 in GD condition and would pay $2,200 or so to have it restored professionally, if you got lucky with the results and wound up with a CGC 9.4, it would probably not be accurate to ascribe a market value to the book following a strict "pre-restoration value plus present value of restoration services" price to the book. More food for thought on the topic of valuation of restored books, I guess!

 

Will this result in more collectors going this route?

 

One book probably won't. Besides, as I mentioned, it isn't easy to get a 9.4 out of a restored book, especially an extensively restored book. Susan Cicconi herself will tell you that most GD condition books can't be restored above VF. Anyone who tries it will be engaging in something of a crapshoot. The person who had this book restored got lucky with the end product.

[burntboy]

Obviously, the value will be what it sells for.

 

I know that doesn't help, but to me, there is NO WAY to tell what condition it was in. We are talking about extensive restoration and TRIMMING (which I agree is a piece missing, not restoration, therefore qualified grade).

 

i'm surprised by both of your comments regarding Trimming - NOT being restoration.

 

that certainly is NOT the way CGC looks at it. i have books that were only trimmed and they sit in purple colored slabs, not green ones.

 

i did (and still do for that matter) always wonder whether CGC downgraded for this process, as well. one would assume not, since it would be a double whammy to have the book considered restored and then have the nice new looking edges also be considered as missing pieces.........

 

insofar as the pricing is concerned, as scott has pointed out in the past, restored AF 15's in mid grade get a surprisingly high percentage of the unrestored value.

the two 9.0's that sold got about 15% of the unrestored 9.0's that have sold. they were slight and moderate resto's, however. so if you went with just 10% of comparative unrestored value you could be looking at $15K (doug's white mountain) or $8500 of the only other gpa registered 9.4 sale.

 

the $10K doesn't seem too out of whack. i'm betting someone would grab it at $7500.

 

(but scott, you don't want a restored copy....... )

 

I'm not saying that trimmed books shouldn't get the PLOD. I am simply saying that "trimming" a book isn't the same thing as "restoring" a book because you're not "restoring" it to its original appearance. You're cutting away pieces of the book without replacing them in their original form. The book hasn't been restored - but it has been altered to make it appear to be higher grade than it was in its unrestored state. Susan Cicconi and Tracey Heft both agree that trimming is not restoration. Having said that, whether or not it meets the definition of restoration does not mean that it should or should not go into a purple label slab to differentiate it from altered books.

 

it's probably not worth arguing the point (especially with a lawyer ) but the CGC label for books that are just trimmed, is Purple and states boldly, CGC RESTORED GRADE.........

 

i understand the fine points that you've made and agree to some degree, but for me it's just easier to think of trimmed books as restored.......

 

And can i then infer that you definitely believe that both dry cleaning/erasure and non-disassembled pressing are "restoration" because in each instance, the work done is "restoring it to it's original appearance"? thanks.........

[the blob]

can any 2.0 be turned into a 9.4?

[uclapeterg]

Have u been reading the thread? The answer is no.

[FFB]

Obviously, the value will be what it sells for.

 

I know that doesn't help, but to me, there is NO WAY to tell what condition it was in. We are talking about extensive restoration and TRIMMING (which I agree is a piece missing, not restoration, therefore qualified grade).

 

i'm surprised by both of your comments regarding Trimming - NOT being restoration.

 

that certainly is NOT the way CGC looks at it. i have books that were only trimmed and they sit in purple colored slabs, not green ones.

 

i did (and still do for that matter) always wonder whether CGC downgraded for this process, as well. one would assume not, since it would be a double whammy to have the book considered restored and then have the nice new looking edges also be considered as missing pieces.........

 

insofar as the pricing is concerned, as scott has pointed out in the past, restored AF 15's in mid grade get a surprisingly high percentage of the unrestored value.

the two 9.0's that sold got about 15% of the unrestored 9.0's that have sold. they were slight and moderate resto's, however. so if you went with just 10% of comparative unrestored value you could be looking at $15K (doug's white mountain) or $8500 of the only other gpa registered 9.4 sale.

 

the $10K doesn't seem too out of whack. i'm betting someone would grab it at $7500.

 

(but scott, you don't want a restored copy....... )

 

I'm not saying that trimmed books shouldn't get the PLOD. I am simply saying that "trimming" a book isn't the same thing as "restoring" a book because you're not "restoring" it to its original appearance. You're cutting away pieces of the book without replacing them in their original form. The book hasn't been restored - but it has been altered to make it appear to be higher grade than it was in its unrestored state. Susan Cicconi and Tracey Heft both agree that trimming is not restoration. Having said that, whether or not it meets the definition of restoration does not mean that it should or should not go into a purple label slab to differentiate it from altered books.

 

it's probably not worth arguing the point (especially with a lawyer ) but the CGC label for books that are just trimmed, is Purple and states boldly, CGC RESTORED GRADE.........

 

i understand the fine points that you've made and agree to some degree, but for me it's just easier to think of trimmed books as restored.......

 

And can i then infer that you definitely believe that both dry cleaning/erasure and non-disassembled pressing are "restoration" because in each instance, the work done is "restoring it to it's original appearance"? thanks.........

 

That's right, Harry. I do believe that dry cleaning/erasure and NDP are "restoration" in the literal sense of the word. Whether that type of restoration detrimentally affects the value of a comic book is another question entirely, but it is restoration.

 

Not all restoration is equal. The biggest harm that I think the purple label has done is to treat all forms of restoration equally in a sense, by "tainting" a restored book with the same color label regardless of what was done to it. I have never thought that a clean & press is as invasive as say piece replacement and inpainting, but I have seen the market beat a book to hell just because it has a clean and press.

 

One example that strikes me is the Bethlehem copy of ASM#1 that Metro sold as a raw 9.2 for $6,000. The guy who bought it from Metro had it slabbed as a 9.4 Apparent Slight (P) and sold it for $12,000 on ebay through a buy-in-now. What was the book before the C&P? Maybe a 9.0? If so, that's a $20,000 book that sold for $6,000 and then $12,000 because it was unnecessarily cleaned and pressed. I just think that's ridiculous.

 

Now, if the book previously had been a 7.5 and was restored with a small piece added and some color touch, then $12,000 would be too high -- but the book would still have the same 9.4 APP Slight (P) label. Same book as far as the general collecting community is concerned, right? Well, not to my mind. But the use of the purple label and the vague "slight/moderate/extensive" notation treats it that way.

 

As far as CGC's treatment of trimming, you are obviously correct that they give trimmed books the purple label. But guess what CGC does differently with respect to trimming? When a book is just trimmed with no restorative work done to it (such as C&P, color touch, etc.), CGC does not give it a "professional" or "amateur" designation. They just note the apparent grade with a purple label and indicate which edges were trimmed. If you ask Steve B., I believe that he will tell you that he does not consider trimming to be an appropriate restoration technique (he has said so before in the thread I started about whether professional restoration artists deem trimming to be an acceptable restoration technique) and that the use of the purple label is just a convenient way to indicate the apparent grade of a trimmed book, while noting that it is not in its unaltered state. CGC does not use the purple label to "dignify" trimming by calling it "restoration."

[burntboy]

Obviously, the value will be what it sells for.

 

I know that doesn't help, but to me, there is NO WAY to tell what condition it was in. We are talking about extensive restoration and TRIMMING (which I agree is a piece missing, not restoration, therefore qualified grade).

 

i'm surprised by both of your comments regarding Trimming - NOT being restoration.

 

that certainly is NOT the way CGC looks at it. i have books that were only trimmed and they sit in purple colored slabs, not green ones.

 

i did (and still do for that matter) always wonder whether CGC downgraded for this process, as well. one would assume not, since it would be a double whammy to have the book considered restored and then have the nice new looking edges also be considered as missing pieces.........

 

insofar as the pricing is concerned, as scott has pointed out in the past, restored AF 15's in mid grade get a surprisingly high percentage of the unrestored value.

the two 9.0's that sold got about 15% of the unrestored 9.0's that have sold. they were slight and moderate resto's, however. so if you went with just 10% of comparative unrestored value you could be looking at $15K (doug's white mountain) or $8500 of the only other gpa registered 9.4 sale.

 

the $10K doesn't seem too out of whack. i'm betting someone would grab it at $7500.

 

(but scott, you don't want a restored copy....... )

 

I'm not saying that trimmed books shouldn't get the PLOD. I am simply saying that "trimming" a book isn't the same thing as "restoring" a book because you're not "restoring" it to its original appearance. You're cutting away pieces of the book without replacing them in their original form. The book hasn't been restored - but it has been altered to make it appear to be higher grade than it was in its unrestored state. Susan Cicconi and Tracey Heft both agree that trimming is not restoration. Having said that, whether or not it meets the definition of restoration does not mean that it should or should not go into a purple label slab to differentiate it from altered books.

 

it's probably not worth arguing the point (especially with a lawyer ) but the CGC label for books that are just trimmed, is Purple and states boldly, CGC RESTORED GRADE.........

 

i understand the fine points that you've made and agree to some degree, but for me it's just easier to think of trimmed books as restored.......

 

And can i then infer that you definitely believe that both dry cleaning/erasure and non-disassembled pressing are "restoration" because in each instance, the work done is "restoring it to it's original appearance"? thanks.........

 

That's right, Harry. I do believe that dry cleaning/erasure and NDP are "restoration" in the literal sense of the word. Whether that type of restoration detrimentally affects the value of a comic book is another question entirely, but it is restoration.

 

Not all restoration is equal. The biggest harm that I think the purple label has done is to treat all forms of restoration equally in a sense, by "tainting" a restored book with the same color label regardless of what was done to it. I have never thought that a clean & press is as invasive as say piece replacement and inpainting, but I have seen the market beat a book to hell just because it has a clean and press.

 

One example that strikes me is the Bethlehem copy of ASM#1 that Metro sold as a raw 9.2 for $6,000. The guy who bought it from Metro had it slabbed as a 9.4 Apparent Slight (P) and sold it for $12,000 on ebay through a buy-in-now. What was the book before the C&P? Maybe a 9.0? If so, that's a $20,000 book that sold for $6,000 and then $12,000 because it was unnecessarily cleaned and pressed. I just think that's ridiculous.

 

Now, if the book previously had been a 7.5 and was restored with a small piece added and some color touch, then $12,000 would be too high -- but the book would still have the same 9.4 APP Slight (P) label. Same book as far as the general collecting community is concerned, right? Well, not to my mind. But the use of the purple label and the vague "slight/moderate/extensive" notation treats it that way.

 

As far as CGC's treatment of trimming, you are obviously correct that they give trimmed books the purple label. But guess what CGC does differently with respect to trimming? When a book is just trimmed with no restorative work done to it (such as C&P, color touch, etc.), CGC does not give it a "professional" or "amateur" designation. They just note the apparent grade with a purple label and indicate which edges were trimmed. If you ask Steve B., I believe that he will tell you that he does not consider trimming to be an appropriate restoration technique (he has said so before in the thread I started about whether professional restoration artists deem trimming to be an acceptable restoration technique) and that the use of the purple label is just a convenient way to indicate the apparent grade of a trimmed book, while noting that it is not in its unaltered state. CGC does not use the purple label to "dignify" trimming by calling it "restoration."

 

you've earned your fee here counselor - thanks...........

[uclapeterg]

He can type so quick as a lawyer (or in spite of being one?).

[FFB]

He can type so quick as a lawyer (or in spite of being one?).

 

I am a very fast typist. Pretty accurate, too!

[lou_fine]

Not all restoration is equal. The biggest harm that I think the purple label has done is to treat all forms of restoration equally in a sense, by "tainting" a restored book with the same color label regardless of what was done to it. I have never thought that a clean & press is as invasive as say piece replacement and inpainting, but I have seen the market beat a book to hell just because it has a clean and press.

 

FFB;

 

In complete agreement with you here. That is why I have always strongly supported Jon Berk's original concept of a 10-point restoration rating system that he first proposed in CBM and reproduced here in one of the threads.

 

Unfortuantely, a lot of the forumites here believe that this approach is nothing more than a blatant attempt to legitimize restoration and mislead the marketplace in order to incorrectly inflate the value of restored books. I am in the camp that believes a formal restoration rating system would provide an environment in which the buyer can make a more informed purchasing decision and allow the marketplace to determine the final value of a restored book based upon both the type and extent of work done to the book.

 

Unfortunately, for now we are stuck with the current system that we have since there seems to be an obvious lack of support for what you and I would prefer.