Bigger SA Key: Flash 105 or Justice League of America 1?

[AlexanderM]

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

What I have read is that the "Martin Goodman playing golf with Jack Liebowitz /Irwin Donenfeld DC" story is apocryphal, but Stan Lee certainly supports the FF coming about because of JLA in some part. In Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan writes:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Yes. I also thought this was common knowledge in here. The success of ...... inspired the FF1 etc.

 

Filling out the dots would certainly not spell challengers of the unknown.. one reason is that it was not a particularly successful tryout.

 

So I'll pose this question again.Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

I think this is very important to note. Without the JLA#1 there would not have been a F.F.#1. This is why to me , this a very important key book. Not just for DC,but for the entire Silver age.

 

Yes. Historically the decision to make JLA1 is tremendously important.

 

With that said JLA#1 would be a much more important book than Flash 105.

 

Yes. I said slightly because I was looking at it from a first versus comeback pow. But in an even greater historical perspective I agree that JLA1 is more important.

[MusterMark]

Voted JLA 1, only because I have a copy.

 

Really Flash 105 is a cool book and I need to get one.

 

This is not a poll for who has one book or the other.

 

Whether one has a book or not should have NO bearing on how some one votes.

[BarryAllen]

Voted JLA 1, only because I have a copy.

 

Really Flash 105 is a cool book and I need to get one.

 

This is not a poll for who has one book or the other.

 

Whether one has a book or not should have NO bearing on how some one votes.

 

 

You really think that what people collect and/or own doesn't have a bearing on what they perceive as more "important?"

 

Give it a rest. We aren't taking about the Ten Commandments here. Sheesh...

[nearmint]

I'd rather have a Flash 105 than the 10 commandments.

 

But then, I already have the 10 commandments.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I predict in time BB 28 will pass up SC 4. Spidey passed FF1, it can happen.

 

That's a pretty astonishing prediction. SC #4 has been "the #3" for so long....

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

[oakman29]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

[RockMyAmadeus]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

[AlexanderM]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

[BarryAllen]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

Don't worry if RMA is wrong or not, it only matters that RMA speaks with conviction about RMA's point of view and in that RMA is certain. Oh and the critical dissection of posts helps draw attention away.

 

Don't worry, RMA is correct. Just ask RMA.

[bronze johnny]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

How would this statement by Stan affect Kirby's influence on the creation of the Fantastic Four?

[BarryAllen]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

How would this statement by Stan affect Kirby's influence on the creation of the Fantastic Four?

 

I don't understand the question. There is a direct quote of one of the co-creators of the book referencing JLA is a (at least one) reason to create a superhero team for Marvel. Do you not think that Stan and Jack talked about this when they created the FF? Why wouldn't they?

 

Can you clarify your point?

[RockMyAmadeus]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

Why the need for the heavy sarcasm? Did you read my post? Here, I'll repost the pertinent bits, even though it's posted right above these very lines:

 

It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF

 

Notice, that's a different statement than "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1", which I never said, even though you directly quoted me as saying it. If you're going to directly quote someone, you need to post what they actually, you know, wrote.

 

Because here's the facts: if the reported statement by Goodman happened, how would Goodman know? There were only a handful of JLA issues out by that time. How would Goodman know if it was "selling better than most"? Did Goodman ring up Donenfeld and say "hey, what are your best selling titles, so we can copy them?"

 

There simply wasn't enough time for Goodman to have made such a statement, and I'm not denying he did, with any degree of certainty.

 

Here's the next important bit..again, still posted above these very lines:

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

(Emphasis added.)

 

Stan Lee's reporting of a comment from Martin Goodman, now 54 years in the past, does not necessarily negate my statement that Challengers was more inspiring for FF than JLA.

 

Not meaning to be unnecessarily snarky, but if you're going to try and call someone out the way you have, you need to have your facts straight before doing so.

 

So...care to restate?

 

All of that aside, it really gets down to the issue of what, exactly, is inspiration. A casual, general comment by Goodman hardly qualifies.

 

If that were the case, then anything can be claimed to have inspired anything else. Steve Jobs ate an apple one day in elementary school, and the inspiration for the Ipad was born.

 

 

Granted, that's hyperbole, but it's not too far off the mark.

 

As I said before...it's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, except in the most completely generic and general of ways, with so few JLA books actually produced by that time.

 

On the other hand, we know that TMNT was directly and purposely inspired by Ronin, because it was a parody, as their creators have stated.

[BarryAllen]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

Why the need for the heavy sarcasm? Did you read my post? Here, I'll repost the pertinent bits, even though it's posted right above these very lines:

 

It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF

 

Notice, that's a different statement than "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1", which I never said, even though you directly quoted me as saying it. If you're going to directly quote someone, you need to post what they actually, you know, wrote.

 

Here's the next important bit..again, still posted above these very lines:

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

(Emphasis added.)

 

Not meaning to be unnecessarily snarky, but if you're going to try and call someone out the way you have, you need to have your facts straight before doing so.

 

So...care to restate?

 

All of that aside, it really gets down to the issue of what, exactly, is inspiration. A casual, general comment by Goodman hardly qualifies.

 

If that were the case, then anything can be claimed to have inspired anything else. Steve Jobs ate an apple one day in elementary school, and the inspiration for the Ipad was born.

 

 

Granted, that's hyperbole, but it's not too far off the mark.

 

As I said before...it's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, except in the most completely generic and general of ways, with so few JLA books actually produced by that time.

 

On the other hand, we know that TMNT was directly and purposely inspired by Ronin, because it was a parody, as their creators have stated.

 

You have a very eloquent way of talking around points and articulating your opinions.

 

That being said, there is a direct quote from Stan Lee stating that Fantastic Four were at least in part created as a reaction to Justice League. Fact.

 

 

Unless you can find a Stan Lee or Jack Kirby quote stating something similar about Challengers of the Unknown (who knows it could be out there, but that doesn't mean it is), everything you said is speculation. Well articulated and artfully proposed, but speculation nonetheless.

 

:shrug:

[RockMyAmadeus]

You have a very eloquent way of talking around points

 

Which points were those...?

 

You have a habit of making claims, like many around here, without being willing...or able...to support them. So, be a reasonable man, and tell me what points were "talked around."

 

 

That being said, there is a direct quote from Stan Lee stating that Fantastic Four were at least in part created as a reaction to Justice League. Fact.

 

 

And...? Your point is....?

 

Did I, at any time, say that FF was not, in any way, shape, or form inspired by JLA?

 

Nope.

 

I'll repost, since I added to my original post:

 

"Because here's the facts: if the reported statement by Goodman happened, how would Goodman know? There were only a handful of JLA issues out by that time. How would Goodman know if it was "selling better than most"? Did Goodman ring up Donenfeld and say "hey, what are your best selling titles, so we can copy them?"

 

There simply wasn't enough time for Goodman to have made such a statement, and I'm not denying he did, with any degree of certainty."

 

And, here:

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

"Much smaller" does not equal "none."

 

Unless you can find a Stan Lee or Jack Kirby quote stating something similar about Challengers of the Unknown (who knows it could be out there, but that doesn't mean it is), everything you said is speculation. Well articulated and artfully proposed, but speculation nonetheless.

 

:shrug:

 

You say this as if you've just stabbed a dagger into the very heart of my argument. If you will dial back the tone a bit, and re-read this statement:

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

...you would see that I completely agree with you that this is speculation.

 

That's what the phrase "I'd say..." means. It means "this is my opinion, and it is speculation."

 

The silly confrontation around here...It's complete madness.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

How would this statement by Stan affect Kirby's influence on the creation of the Fantastic Four?

 

I don't understand the question. There is a direct quote of one of the co-creators of the book referencing JLA is a (at least one) reason to create a superhero team for Marvel. Do you not think that Stan and Jack talked about this when they created the FF? Why wouldn't they?

 

Can you clarify your point?

 

The issue isn't "the direct quote" (although there are problems with THAT, too.) No one is saying that Stan Lee didn't say that.

 

The issue is HOW JLA inspired FF.

 

See my "Steve Jobs" example above.

 

You ask "Do you not think that Stan and Jack talked about this (I'm assuming "this" means "JLA") when they created the FF? Why wouldn't they?"

 

My response is: why would they? DC was competition, and although Jack worked for both all the time, neither had anything to do with JLA. So why would they talk about it?

 

Do you have any evidence that they talked about it? Any statements by them in the following years? You can't merely assume they talked about it because it existed. You have to have positive proof to make that claim.

 

And if you say "well, how do you know they DIDN'T talk about it?" all I can say is: I don't. That's the point. I'm not claiming they didn't. You ARE claiming they did.

[BarryAllen]

 

The silly confrontation around here...It's complete madness.

 

Silly, sure. Madness, not so sure.

 

Do you think you contribute to it? Or not?

[BarryAllen]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

How would this statement by Stan affect Kirby's influence on the creation of the Fantastic Four?

 

I don't understand the question. There is a direct quote of one of the co-creators of the book referencing JLA is a (at least one) reason to create a superhero team for Marvel. Do you not think that Stan and Jack talked about this when they created the FF? Why wouldn't they?

 

Can you clarify your point?

 

The issue isn't "the direct quote" (although there are problems with THAT, too.) No one is saying that Stan Lee didn't say that.

 

The issue is HOW JLA inspired FF.

 

See my "Steve Jobs" example above.

 

You ask "Do you not think that Stan and Jack talked about this (I'm assuming "this" means "JLA") when they created the FF? Why wouldn't they?"

 

My response is: why would they? DC was competition, and although Jack worked for both all the time, neither had anything to do with JLA. So why would they talk about it?

 

Do you have any evidence that they talked about it? Any statements by them in the following years? You can't merely assume they talked about it because it existed. You have to have positive proof to make that claim.

 

And if you say "well, how do you know they DIDN'T talk about it?" all I can say is: I don't. That's the point. I'm not claiming they didn't. You ARE claiming they did.

 

My logical connections started with a quote substantiating my POV. I can't prove what they did or did not talk about, but it really doesn't matter because Stan was quoted saying the JLA did influence the creation. Either way it isn't a reach to assume people in the comic business talk about their direct competition's new releases. This is pretty standard business behavior.

 

Your points start and end with your opinion.

 

:shrug:

 

FYI - your choosing to focus on "how" is a "way of talking around a point."

[RockMyAmadeus]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

Don't worry if RMA is wrong or not, it only matters that RMA speaks with conviction about RMA's point of view and in that RMA is certain. Oh and the critical dissection of posts helps draw attention away.

 

Don't worry, RMA is correct. Just ask RMA.

 

You have an RMA-shaped chip on your shoulder, and you need to get rid of it.

 

Don't be angry when you are challenged. The simple solution to "put me in my place" is to prove me wrong. While you may think I'd have a problem with that, the opposite is true.

 

All this silly aggression serves no good purpose.

[BarryAllen]

It should be remembered that, as far as the JLA title itself is concerned, it pre-dated FF #1 only by a year, and by the time FF #1 was in production, there were only 4-5 issues out. It's hard to say that the JLA title inspired FF, when there were so few of the books out by the time Stan and Jack were putting FF #1 together.

 

 

I'd say the Challengers of the Unknown carried a much bigger impact, and JLA much smaller, on FF than is typically believed.

 

 

Are you rewriting history again my friend?

 

Dispelling long treasured myths, maybe.

 

 

 

 

RockmyAmadeus says: "I'm not sure JLA inspired FF1"

 

Stan Lee says: ""Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

.....

 

Who would know the story of whether JLA or Challengers inspired FF1 better.... Rockmy... or Stan Lee... hmmmmmm ... hard one.....

 

Don't worry if RMA is wrong or not, it only matters that RMA speaks with conviction about RMA's point of view and in that RMA is certain. Oh and the critical dissection of posts helps draw attention away.

 

Don't worry, RMA is correct. Just ask RMA.

 

You have an RMA-shaped chip on your shoulder, and you need to get rid of it.

 

Don't be angry when you are challenged. The simple solution to "put me in my place" is to prove me wrong. While you may think I'd have a problem with that, the opposite is true.

 

All this silly aggression serves no good purpose.

 

Not sure what is aggressive about it...?

 

I think it is funny that you think people's animosity with you is misplaced. I am hardly the first person on here to get frustrated with you.

 

:shrug: