2 Spideys in the name of Diversity or the gradual decline of Marvel Comics?

[bronze johnny]

The most interesting thing about Marvel's substituting its major characters is not about the publisher's claim that it's goal is about increasing diversity. Marvel has been working on diversifying the comic book since the Bronze Age. 70's books like Luke Cage- Hero for Hire, Jungle Action (starring the Black Panther), Master of Kung Fu, Ms. Marvel, Red Wolf, and the new X-Men team are classic examples of the first great age of diversity in the history of the American Comic Book. Marvel would later have an African-American character take over for the deceased Captain Marvel of the Kree. The diversification of the American Comic Book continued throughout the later Copper and current Modern Age where DC Comics went on to introduce the Milestone Comics imprint.

 

Diversity is no stranger to the comic book, especially Marvel Comics. And the importance in diversifying comics should not be understated, especially as America has become a more diverse nation.

 

Interestingly, the first waves of diversifying the American Comic Book introduced during Marvel's Bronze Age were primarily original creations.

 

21st Century Marvel Comics has made numerous attempts at diversifying its comic book universe by substituting major characters or as in the case of Spider-Man, simply created a second one to attract a more diverse comic book readership:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/marvel-inclusion-biracial-spider-man-article-1.2265591

 

Marvel should continue to add diversity to its portfolio. The problem is whether this current repeated strategy is really a simple and old idea that is masking the lack of creative-innovative ideas at Marvel Comics as a comic book publisher. Since Marvel Comics has been applying this strategy for some time, another question is whether the publisher is in a gradual decline? The idea that taking a major character and simply diversifying the alter ego or adding another version doesn't require much thought. Sadly, some people are making money on this approach and the movie business is making incredible profits while the House of Ideas has many vacant rooms when it comes to fresh new ideas.

 

The real challenge for Marvel Comics is to create new characters that reflect the changing world today.

 

Again, diversity in the American Comic Book is a great thing that should continue. Marvel took great steps to diversify its universe during the Bronze Age and went on to create the greatest "diversity key book" ever where new characters were incorporated into a revamped team that would go on to become the most popular selling comic book franchise for a quarter of a century. That book was Giant-Size X-Men 1.

 

Thanks for sharing any insight.

 

John

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Did you see this thread:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8664325#Post8664325

[bronze johnny]

Did you see this thread:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8664325#Post8664325

 

I did. My focus is not on anything relative to censorship- it's exclusive to questioning Marvel's current level of creativity and whether it provides some insight into the publishing company's current state of innovative ideas by comparatively looking at the diversity strategies applied during the Bronze Age and now.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

The bottom line as to why Marvel would change existing characters (or who is using the name) rather than introduce new concepts is, well, the bottom line. Some IPs have more name recognition, so are going to sell better, especially when there's a history in the collectible aspect of comics of big changes with characters being key books that sell for more. (Granted that it's been diluted over the last few decades by significant changes almost never being permanent.)

[dupont2005]

When Spiderman is replaced with the Green Goblin, no big deal, they're both white. When Captain America is replaced with Bucky, no big deal, they're both white! When Batman is replaced with Azrael, no big deal, they're both white. When Robin is replaced with Tim Drake, no big deal, they're both white!

 

But Miles Morales? Marvel has gone too far.

[Jaydogrules]

That's interesting. And here I thought this thread was about Marvel's laziness in repeatedly "creating" lame, duplicative characters for the sole purpose of temporarily grabbing headlines to titillate the uninformed.

 

-J.

[comicstock]

All this means zero unless they have wider distribution and people actually can find, buy, and read the books.

[darkstar]

The bottom line as to why Marvel would change existing characters (or who is using the name) rather than introduce new concepts is, well, the bottom line. Some IPs have more name recognition, so are going to sell better, especially when there's a history in the collectible aspect of comics of big changes with characters being key books that sell for more. (Granted that it's been diluted over the last few decades by significant changes almost never being permanent.)

 

You are going to make far more money in the long run developing new IPs than you will from creating derivatives of original concepts.

[Illustrious]

 

You are going to make far more money in the long run developing new IPs than you will from creating derivatives of original concepts.

 

Yep, these derivatives will all fall hard eventually to the law of diminishing returns.

[500Club]

That's interesting. And here I thought this thread was about Marvel's laziness in repeatedly "creating" lame, duplicative characters for the sole purpose of temporarily grabbing headlines to titillate the uninformed.

This is my biggest complaint. House of Ideas? Not no more.

[natevegas]

When Spiderman is replaced with the Green Goblin, no big deal, they're both white. When Captain America is replaced with Bucky, no big deal, they're both white! When Batman is replaced with Azrael, no big deal, they're both white. When Robin is replaced with Tim Drake, no big deal, they're both white!

 

But Miles Morales? Marvel has gone too far.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/stan-lee-stands-white-spider-man-says-create-new-characters

The co-creator of Spider-man disagrees with what you just said.

 

From the article -

 

Now Stan Lee sets the record straight and says they should leave the characters alone and just create new ones.

 

"I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way,” Lee told Newsarama. “But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.”

 

While Bendis apparently believes kids aren't allowed to pretend to be a hero of a different "color," Stan Lee thinks that one of Spider-Man's stengths is that his costume enables anyone to potentially identify with the Web Crawler.

 

"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume,” Lee said. “And that’s a good thing.”

 

Lee continues that it's not about being anti-gay or anti-black, and even mentions what may fans have stated, which is they wouldn't want to see the black characters changed as well.

 

“It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that,” Lee said. “Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”

[greenhoody]

When Spiderman is replaced with the Green Goblin, no big deal, they're both white. When Captain America is replaced with Bucky, no big deal, they're both white! When Batman is replaced with Azrael, no big deal, they're both white. When Robin is replaced with Tim Drake, no big deal, they're both white!

 

But Miles Morales? Marvel has gone too far.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/stan-lee-stands-white-spider-man-says-create-new-characters

The co-creator of Spider-man disagrees with what you just said.

 

From the article -

 

Now Stan Lee sets the record straight and says they should leave the characters alone and just create new ones.

 

"I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way,” Lee told Newsarama. “But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.”

 

While Bendis apparently believes kids aren't allowed to pretend to be a hero of a different "color," Stan Lee thinks that one of Spider-Man's stengths is that his costume enables anyone to potentially identify with the Web Crawler.

 

"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume,” Lee said. “And that’s a good thing.”

 

Lee continues that it's not about being anti-gay or anti-black, and even mentions what may fans have stated, which is they wouldn't want to see the black characters changed as well.

 

“It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that,” Lee said. “Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

When Spiderman is replaced with the Green Goblin, no big deal, they're both white. When Captain America is replaced with Bucky, no big deal, they're both white! When Batman is replaced with Azrael, no big deal, they're both white. When Robin is replaced with Tim Drake, no big deal, they're both white!

 

But Miles Morales? Marvel has gone too far.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/stan-lee-stands-white-spider-man-says-create-new-characters

The co-creator of Spider-man disagrees with what you just said.

 

From the article -

 

Now Stan Lee sets the record straight and says they should leave the characters alone and just create new ones.

 

"I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way,” Lee told Newsarama. “But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.”

 

While Bendis apparently believes kids aren't allowed to pretend to be a hero of a different "color," Stan Lee thinks that one of Spider-Man's stengths is that his costume enables anyone to potentially identify with the Web Crawler.

 

"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume,” Lee said. “And that’s a good thing.”

 

Lee continues that it's not about being anti-gay or anti-black, and even mentions what may fans have stated, which is they wouldn't want to see the black characters changed as well.

 

“It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that,” Lee said. “Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”

I think you may have missed dupont's point, which is that there wasn't as much of a fuss made when a new character was placed in an existing costume (or adopted an existing super-hero identity). If Lee is saying create new characters, that would seem to apply to a new identity for any IP, regardless of the new character's race.

[the authority]

When Spiderman is replaced with the Green Goblin, no big deal, they're both white. When Captain America is replaced with Bucky, no big deal, they're both white! When Batman is replaced with Azrael, no big deal, they're both white. When Robin is replaced with Tim Drake, no big deal, they're both white!

 

But Miles Morales? Marvel has gone too far.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/stan-lee-stands-white-spider-man-says-create-new-characters

The co-creator of Spider-man disagrees with what you just said.

 

From the article -

 

Now Stan Lee sets the record straight and says they should leave the characters alone and just create new ones.

 

"I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way,” Lee told Newsarama. “But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.”

 

While Bendis apparently believes kids aren't allowed to pretend to be a hero of a different "color," Stan Lee thinks that one of Spider-Man's stengths is that his costume enables anyone to potentially identify with the Web Crawler.

 

"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume,” Lee said. “And that’s a good thing.”

 

Lee continues that it's not about being anti-gay or anti-black, and even mentions what may fans have stated, which is they wouldn't want to see the black characters changed as well.

 

“It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that,” Lee said. “Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”

I think you may have missed dupont's point, which is that there wasn't as much of a fuss made when a new character was placed in an existing costume (or adopted an existing super-hero identity). If Lee is saying create new characters, that would seem to apply to a new identity for any IP, regardless of the new character's race.

 

 

People hated Jason Todd enough to vote to have him killed. At least over half of them. This isn't new.

[Doktor]

My objections to FalCap & Miles are pretty simple personally.

 

I dislike FalCap because it entirely disregarded the whole "Hawkeye & Bucky are the only 2 Avengers characters with the coordination, agility & ability to wield the shield" thing that they established when Bucky took over (Hawkeye said "I'll pass"). And that it also kinda takes away an original identity for a great long-standing minority character just to have them ride the coat tails of a white dude.

 

And Miles is kind of similar on the 2nd point with FalCap. He's gotta ride the coat tails of another white guy for anyone to even care. Both situations are a form of soft racism of low expectations. Give em the white guy's name or nobody will buy them.

 

For every FalCap or Miles, I can point to a character like Bishop or Luke Cage or Dazzler or Storm as long-standing characters that have held their own for decades without needing to resort to trading on the name of a white dude in order for anyone to care. Because they're compelling/interesting characters on their own & don't need to be the "black/female/gay/etc version of a straight white guy that people have already heard of" in order to sell. Makes me kinda pine for the 70's-90's diversity waves.

 

But I guess in the instant-gratification society we're in, the instant sales generated from shock-and-awe diversity is easier & takes less work than actually creating a new character & putting in the work to make them interesting on their own.

[Prince Namor]

Why would anyone create a new character for Marvel or DC Comics, and simply get a residual on the issues they worked on, with no ownership rights or big money if it becomes a hit?

 

They could. more easily than ever before, take their great idea to Image or Boom or even publish it themselves, and if it becomes a hit, have full creator owned rights and possibly make bank.

 

Kevin Eastman became a multi-millionaire. Bill Mantlo, not so much.

 

The lessons of the past have taught comic professionals to protect their legacy and NOT put it in the hands of the big two... use THEM to further their career, NOT the other way around.

 

The industry has gotten what it deserves.

[maloney414]

Miles Morales IS a new character.

 

They didn't make Peter Parker black, they created a new character.

 

And his comics so far have been really good stories.

 

I think a lot of people mad about this, haven't read the comics.

[MadGenius]

Why would anyone create a new character for Marvel or DC Comics, and simply get a residual on the issues they worked on, with no ownership rights or big money if it becomes a hit?

 

They could. more easily than ever before, take their great idea to Image or Boom or even publish it themselves, and if it becomes a hit, have full creator owned rights and possibly make bank.

 

Kevin Eastman became a multi-millionaire. Bill Mantlo, not so much.

 

The lessons of the past have taught comic professionals to protect their legacy and NOT put it in the hands of the big two... use THEM to further their career, NOT the other way around.

 

The industry has gotten what it deserves.

This +100%

 

What was the last wholly original (non-derivative/non-legacy) character created by DC/Marvel? Off the top of my head, I think it may be Amadeus Cho back in 2006. That's nearly 10 years ago. Creators have gotten wise and realize that the big two aren't the only game in town anymore.

[JTLarsen]

When Spiderman is replaced with the Green Goblin, no big deal, they're both white. When Captain America is replaced with Bucky, no big deal, they're both white! When Batman is replaced with Azrael, no big deal, they're both white. When Robin is replaced with Tim Drake, no big deal, they're both white!

 

But Miles Morales? Marvel has gone too far.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/stan-lee-stands-white-spider-man-says-create-new-characters

The co-creator of Spider-man disagrees with what you just said.

 

From the article -

 

Now Stan Lee sets the record straight and says they should leave the characters alone and just create new ones.

 

"I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way,” Lee told Newsarama. “But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.”

 

While Bendis apparently believes kids aren't allowed to pretend to be a hero of a different "color," Stan Lee thinks that one of Spider-Man's stengths is that his costume enables anyone to potentially identify with the Web Crawler.

 

"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume,” Lee said. “And that’s a good thing.”

 

Lee continues that it's not about being anti-gay or anti-black, and even mentions what may fans have stated, which is they wouldn't want to see the black characters changed as well.

 

“It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that,” Lee said. “Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”

I think you may have missed dupont's point, which is that there wasn't as much of a fuss made when a new character was placed in an existing costume (or adopted an existing super-hero identity). If Lee is saying create new characters, that would seem to apply to a new identity for any IP, regardless of the new character's race.

 

 

People hated Jason Todd enough to vote to have him killed. At least over half of them. This isn't new.

 

People hated Jason Todd's personality. Remember all the outrage over having a blonde guy be Batman?

[the authority]

Why would anyone create a new character for Marvel or DC Comics, and simply get a residual on the issues they worked on, with no ownership rights or big money if it becomes a hit?

 

They could. more easily than ever before, take their great idea to Image or Boom or even publish it themselves, and if it becomes a hit, have full creator owned rights and possibly make bank.

 

Kevin Eastman became a multi-millionaire. Bill Mantlo, not so much.

 

The lessons of the past have taught comic professionals to protect their legacy and NOT put it in the hands of the big two... use THEM to further their career, NOT the other way around.

 

The industry has gotten what it deserves.

 

I agree. Bill Mantlo, as the example given, wrote great stories. my favorite run of his would be Rom. He should be/have been paid. I would say Invincible has been a top 10 hero book for the last 15 years but the book doesn't get a ton of support for whatever reason. I guess its tough to get people to try new things.