A General Plea/Observation-Mile High

[jbud73]

MH2 = Chuck bought a few pallets of Copper / Bronze filler issues pedigree.

 

 

 

Slow down....

 

 

The MH2 collection is by far the largest accumulation of high grade books ever bought. The problem is that most of these books have been sold over the past 15 years and there is NO WAY to actually identify these. Yes, Chuck gave out certicates for some, but there is really no way of verifying if the book is from the collection (i.e. many books from this time period are in HG, and there are no unique markings).

 

Because Chuck had some remaining (i.e. unsold the past 15 years), he was able to convince CGC that these should have Mile High 2 on the CGC label (as he could vouch that ALL of these were from the WAREHOUSE PURCHASE).

 

I have no problem with this, as it will be up to the MARKET to determine if that adds any value to the book.

 

Nope, I think we need to SPEED UP, as in be brought up to Speed on what constitutes a Ped. maybe Alan can speak to this more - but I was certain that, identifying a Master List, General Market Acceptence Historically, Depth and Breadth of Collection and existance of Keys in HG, were critera that have been bantered about.

 

I do NOT remember "Well Chuck vouches for them 15 year after the fact and lets see if it will catch on / become accepted in the Marketplace" as mitigating factors for Pedigree designation.

 

Sorry Steve the MH2 thing just totally throws out of whack something that was tenuous to begin with IE Pedigree designation. As someone who buys Peds from time to time its a bit of a sore spot with me

[greggy]

WTF are you smoking troll? Cosmic Aeroplane got all of Holt's books in two batches -- one in the early '70s and one in the mid '70s.

Got the damn info from Matt Nelson's site.

 

If the information presented there is incorrect, let the guy know.

 

Here's an exerpt from it. --->

This collection surfaced for sale around early 1972, and was the first to become a pedigree. It was purchased by David Faggiola, and originated out of Salt Lake City, Utah. The collection was amassed by an art teacher who used the comics as demonstrations to students during the 1940's and 1950's. This is evident upon examination of most copies from the collection, as they have check marks and occasional notes next to the panels of art inside.

 

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

 

So....

 

P.S.

[PedigreeMan]

WTF are you smoking troll? Cosmic Aeroplane got all of Holt's books in two batches -- one in the early '70s and one in the mid '70s.

Got the damn info from Matt Nelson's site.

 

If the information presented there is incorrect, let the guy know.

 

Here's an exerpt from it. --->

This collection surfaced for sale around early 1972, and was the first to become a pedigree. It was purchased by David Faggiola, and originated out of Salt Lake City, Utah. The collection was amassed by an art teacher who used the comics as demonstrations to students during the 1940's and 1950's. This is evident upon examination of most copies from the collection, as they have check marks and occasional notes next to the panels of art inside.

 

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

 

So....

 

P.S.

 

Wow. That section needs a heavy re-wording. I can totally see how someone with no clue would read it the way you did. The "early raids" referenced the purchases these gentlemen made from the Cosmic Aeroplane store (David Faggiola == Cosmic Aeroplane, along with Ken Sanders). The "remaining books" referenced the second batch of books that came into the Cosmic Aeroplane in 1975 (1976?).

 

Bottom line is, Cosmic Aeroplane sold all of these books.

 

Now what about your assertion about the Denver collection, ?

[greggy]

WTF are you smoking troll? Cosmic Aeroplane got all of Holt's books in two batches -- one in the early '70s and one in the mid '70s.

Got the damn info from Matt Nelson's site.

 

If the information presented there is incorrect, let the guy know.

 

Here's an exerpt from it. --->

This collection surfaced for sale around early 1972, and was the first to become a pedigree. It was purchased by David Faggiola, and originated out of Salt Lake City, Utah. The collection was amassed by an art teacher who used the comics as demonstrations to students during the 1940's and 1950's. This is evident upon examination of most copies from the collection, as they have check marks and occasional notes next to the panels of art inside.

 

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

 

So....

 

P.S.

 

Wow. That section needs a heavy re-wording. I can totally see how someone with no clue would read it the way you did. The "early raids" referenced the purchases these gentlemen made from the Cosmic Aeroplane store (David Faggiola == Cosmic Aeroplane, along with Ken Sanders). The "remaining books" referenced the second batch of books that came into the Cosmic Aeroplane in 1975 (1976?).

 

Bottom line is, Cosmic Aeroplane sold all of these books.

 

Now what about your assertion about the Denver collection, ?

Dammit...got it wrong! Got to read these stupid articles again to be an "expert" in my own mind. Got the damn auction location wrong.

 

P.S. I hate you man....I take fault for the Denver but not the Cosmic mistake!

[tth2]

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

Wow. That section needs a heavy re-wording. I can totally see how someone with no clue would read it the way you did. The "early raids" referenced the purchases these gentlemen made from the Cosmic Aeroplane store (David Faggiola == Cosmic Aeroplane, along with Ken Sanders). The "remaining books" referenced the second batch of books that came into the Cosmic Aeroplane in 1975 (1976?).

 

Bottom line is, Cosmic Aeroplane sold all of these books.

 

It's not just someone without a clue who would misinterpret this line, it's any person with normal vocabulary skills. If Cosmic Aeroplane had all the books from the start, and the purchases by Hamilton et al. were from Cosmic Aeroplane, then it doesn't make any sense for the alleged seller of those books, Cosmic Aeroplane, to sell the remaining books to itself, Cosmic Aeroplane.

 

I think I just set some kind of world record for the number of times Cosmic Aeroplane is used in 1 paragraph...

[FFB]

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

Wow. That section needs a heavy re-wording. I can totally see how someone with no clue would read it the way you did. The "early raids" referenced the purchases these gentlemen made from the Cosmic Aeroplane store (David Faggiola == Cosmic Aeroplane, along with Ken Sanders). The "remaining books" referenced the second batch of books that came into the Cosmic Aeroplane in 1975 (1976?).

 

Bottom line is, Cosmic Aeroplane sold all of these books.

 

It's not just someone without a clue who would misinterpret this line, it's any person with normal vocabulary skills. If Cosmic Aeroplane had all the books from the start, and the purchases by Hamilton et al. were from Cosmic Aeroplane, then it doesn't make any sense for the alleged seller of those books, Cosmic Aeroplane, to sell the remaining books to itself, Cosmic Aeroplane.

 

I think I just set some kind of world record for the number of times Cosmic Aeroplane is used in 1 paragraph...

 

Hey Tim, do you own any Cosmic Aeroplane books? Have you ever seen any Cosmic Aeroplane books in person? Have you been to the Cosmic Aeroplane store? Will you look for Cosmic Aeroplane books in the future now that Cosmic Aeroplane books are on your radar screen?

 

That's five. Breaking the old record as soon as it was set!

[tth2]

It's not just someone without a clue who would misinterpret this line, it's any person with normal vocabulary skills. If Cosmic Aeroplane had all the books from the start, and the purchases by Hamilton et al. were from Cosmic Aeroplane, then it doesn't make any sense for the alleged seller of those books, Cosmic Aeroplane, to sell the remaining books to itself, Cosmic Aeroplane.

 

I think I just set some kind of world record for the number of times Cosmic Aeroplane is used in 1 paragraph...

 

Hey Tim, do you own any Cosmic Aeroplane books? Have you ever seen any Cosmic Aeroplane books in person? Have you been to the Cosmic Aeroplane store? Will you look for Cosmic Aeroplane books in the future now that Cosmic Aeroplane books are on your radar screen?

 

That's five. Breaking the old record as soon as it was set!

 

Cosmic Aeroplane THIS, mother er!

 

"Get in the Ring" by GnR came up on shuffle play as I was driving home yesterday, I had forgotten about the wonderful string of invectives hurled by Axl against various members of the music media. Their putdown of Bob Guccione Jr. in particular is classic.

[Darthdiesel]

Maybe because he didn't want the Church family to see their name connected to books priced in the hundreds or thousands of dollars, when Chuck paid them essentially cover price for them?

Plus...realistically, how many pedigree finds have been named after the original owner?

 

Well maybe its time to start naming them after the owners, if the owners are known!

 

How many more OO collections are out there that would/could fall under strict Pedigree criteria? I'm of the opinion that many such collecitons have already been pieced out to local dealers and passed hands many times over. As Jim mentioned, there are too many collections out there being touted or confused as pedigrees. And since realistically most collections out there that could theoretically qualify for pedigree status are bronze to modern collections, no one really gives a crahp?

 

I was just busting your chops with my first post as I understand the integral parts both Church and Chuck played in pushing this esteemed collection to the hobby's forefront, but going back and renaming the existing Pedigrees or hyphenating them with OO names is just asking for more confusion down the line; especially if the OO's have other books or are still alive today and active in the hobby selling books acquired later, separate of the pedigree. What if there is another Larsen (Eric? Bob? Glen A. Larsen? etc...) collection found? Another Reilly (ie Ben Reilly, or Joe Reilly) treasure trove of GA and SA? Wouldn't these OO-named collection serve as distraction to the collector seeking the established pedigrees?

[Darthdiesel]

Revisionist tripe! If it wasn't for Chuck and Mile High, this collection would be nowknown as the Denver Landfill pedigree

 

Of course this all comes straight from Chuck's ever-truthful mouth, right? And just to ask the obvious question - where would Chuck be if Edgar had not saved all those books?

 

I was playing with Pov, but I'll bite...whose to say Chuck wouldn't have come up with the Mile High comics company anyway and outstripped his peers at establishing a successful mail order catalog for comics business... there a re a lot of what ifs here that could have happened to consider...so however you want to spin it, that's cool with me

[Darthdiesel]

Revisionist tripe! If it wasn't for Chuck and Mile High, this collection would be nowknown as the Denver Landfill pedigree, thank to the Church heirs. Chuck brought it to the limelight...without Chuck, there would be no pedigree designation... and this collection would have been destined for obscurity.

 

If it weren't for Edgar Church, there would have been no collection for Chuck to find!

 

 

...but without Chuck, where would the collection be now?

[Darthdiesel]

Seriously, Greggy, if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you should probably just keep yer trap shut.

 

 

Salida-Hater!

[PovertyRow]

I was just busting your chops with my first post as I understand the integral parts both Church and Chuck

 

I kind of figured that because I know you are one of the knowledgeable ones.

 

But as you know, in relation to many other collectibles, comic books are in a VERY weird situation. We have five and six figure books. We have a sophisticated grading system (that can use some work but overall a lot more than the initial 3-grade system we started with.) We have genuine pedigress with provenance. We have recognized artists. We have several legitimate genres and ages. We have a unique medium that carries with it some very strong historical and social references and impacts.

 

And on this board we have probably the single most concentrated representation of real experts.

 

So on a serious vein, what is keeping us from making some impact? The whole concept of pedigrees in comic books is less than 40 years old. That is a drop of water in the ocean as compared to other collectibles. So why NOT start to redefine the existing pedigrees? Are people saying collectors would get too confused for this to work? Well, we went from a 3-grade system to an 8-grade system to a +/- that added a lot more grades to a numeric syhstem and we currently have the G-/G/G+ type system (or the Fr/G, G, G/VG) however you want to define it) co-existing with a Numeric grading system. Regardless of some folks being confused, those differing grade systems seem to be working.

 

I don't know. Maybe folks think this is not really important. I grant you it is a bit nebulous in the excitement of the acquisition of those books we are seeking.

 

But, if there ARE pedigrees that can be attributed to the original owners and are not designated as such, why NOT? The dealers who obtained the books did not invest anything beyond business meetings and money. The original collectors invested their time, somehow managed good storage conditions, and maintained their collections in remarkable condition especially considering what would be available in the earlier pedigrees for conservation.

 

Ah well. Just how I feel about it.

 

::edited because I forgot to add "Numeric grading system" - dang!

[FlyingDonut]

It's not just someone without a clue who would misinterpret this line, it's any person with normal vocabulary skills. If Cosmic Aeroplane had all the books from the start, and the purchases by Hamilton et al. were from Cosmic Aeroplane, then it doesn't make any sense for the alleged seller of those books, Cosmic Aeroplane, to sell the remaining books to itself, Cosmic Aeroplane.

 

I think I just set some kind of world record for the number of times Cosmic Aeroplane is used in 1 paragraph...

 

Hey Tim, do you own any Cosmic Aeroplane books? Have you ever seen any Cosmic Aeroplane books in person? Have you been to the Cosmic Aeroplane store? Will you look for Cosmic Aeroplane books in the future now that Cosmic Aeroplane books are on your radar screen?

 

That's five. Breaking the old record as soon as it was set!

 

Cosmic Aeroplane THIS, mother er!

 

"Get in the Ring" by GnR came up on shuffle play as I was driving home yesterday, I had forgotten about the wonderful string of invectives hurled by Axl against various members of the music media. Their putdown of Bob Guccione Jr. in particular is classic.

 

"Bob Guccione, Jr.! [#@$%!!!] you! You're just mad because your dad gets more [#@$%!!!] than you do."

 

Classic.

[PedigreeMan]

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

Wow. That section needs a heavy re-wording. I can totally see how someone with no clue would read it the way you did. The "early raids" referenced the purchases these gentlemen made from the Cosmic Aeroplane store (David Faggiola == Cosmic Aeroplane, along with Ken Sanders). The "remaining books" referenced the second batch of books that came into the Cosmic Aeroplane in 1975 (1976?).

 

Bottom line is, Cosmic Aeroplane sold all of these books.

 

It's not just someone without a clue who would misinterpret this line, it's any person with normal vocabulary skills. If Cosmic Aeroplane had all the books from the start, and the purchases by Hamilton et al. were from Cosmic Aeroplane, then it doesn't make any sense for the alleged seller of those books, Cosmic Aeroplane, to sell the remaining books to itself, Cosmic Aeroplane.

 

The key point that's missing here, Tim, is that The CA didn't purchase the entire collection of W.C. Holt (anyone want to try getting the name of the pedigree changed to that of the OO? ) in 1972. A portion of it was stolen by a janitor or groundskeeper or something at the school where the art teacher worked, and this is what was brought to Dave and Ken in '72 and what Hamilton et al. "raided" (probably not the best term). In '75 or '76, Holt's relatives (heirs?) brought in the rest of the books to The CA, whereupon the store owners told them about the earlier batch. This led them to track down the thief, who supposedly was eventually brought to justice or forced to make restitution or something. (Sorry, all of my notes on this pedigree are on my computer at work.)

 

There's a helluva lot more to the Cosmic Aeroplane story than Matt talks about in his article. I'm hoping he clears up some of the facts in his forthcoming book. (And yes, FFB et al., I have been proactive in this endeavor and sent my contacts about this pedigree to Matt. But Dave F. and Ken S. seem pretty accessible, so I'm sure Matt already knew most of what I sent him.)

 

Alan

[adamstrange]

After few early raids on the collection by Bruce Hamilton, Gary Carter, and Dale Broadhurst the remaining books were sold to a local store in Salt Lake City called Cosmic Aeroplane Books, hence the pedigree name.

 

Wow. That section needs a heavy re-wording. I can totally see how someone with no clue would read it the way you did. The "early raids" referenced the purchases these gentlemen made from the Cosmic Aeroplane store (David Faggiola == Cosmic Aeroplane, along with Ken Sanders). The "remaining books" referenced the second batch of books that came into the Cosmic Aeroplane in 1975 (1976?).

 

Bottom line is, Cosmic Aeroplane sold all of these books.

 

It's not just someone without a clue who would misinterpret this line, it's any person with normal vocabulary skills. If Cosmic Aeroplane had all the books from the start, and the purchases by Hamilton et al. were from Cosmic Aeroplane, then it doesn't make any sense for the alleged seller of those books, Cosmic Aeroplane, to sell the remaining books to itself, Cosmic Aeroplane.

 

The key point that's missing here, Tim, is that The CA didn't purchase the entire collection of W.C. Holt (anyone want to try getting the name of the pedigree changed to that of the OO? ) in 1972. A portion of it was stolen by a janitor or groundskeeper or something at the school where the art teacher worked, and this is what was brought to Dave and Ken in '72 and what Hamilton et al. "raided" (probably not the best term). In '75 or '76, Holt's relatives (heirs?) brought in the rest of the books to The CA, whereupon the store owners told them about the earlier batch. This led them to track down the thief, who supposedly was eventually brought to justice or forced to make restitution or something. (Sorry, all of my notes on this pedigree are on my computer at work.)

 

There's a helluva lot more to the Cosmic Aeroplane story than Matt talks about in his article. I'm hoping he clears up some of the facts in his forthcoming book. (And yes, FFB et al., I have been proactive in this endeavor and sent my contacts about this pedigree to Matt. But Dave F. and Ken S. seem pretty accessible, so I'm sure Matt already knew most of what I sent him.)

 

Alan

 

Alan,

 

We'd love to read any notes you've put together.

 

If you've done the detective work, why haven't you considered writing the book?

 

Just a thought.

[PedigreeMan]

Alan,

 

We'd love to read any notes you've put together.

 

If you've done the detective work, why haven't you considered writing the book?

 

Just a thought.

 

Matt has better contacts. And I don't want to step on anyone's toes (a pedigree book has been Matt's dream for quite a while). Plus there are a whole slew of pedigrees that I really don't care about, and as a result wouldn't be able to give proper deference to.

 

I'm also not a journalist and don't know the ins and outs of "proper" research or the protocols for "background only" sections (I want the dirt, too, dammit!) and the like. I'd feel like I was flying blind.

 

If I were in charge of a pedigree book, though, I would gather all of the dealers who found the various collections and get them to do write ups on them. I would then gather other experts' opinions and print them as a sort of verification or rebuttal of the official version. I'd also try my hardest to find original owners or their relatives and get their sides of the story. In other words, I'd play the role of editor, leaving as much of the "journalistic prismatic" layer out of it. It probably wouldn't be the prettiest book, but it would probably be the most accurate.

 

In any event, thanks for the vote of confidence. But my collective knowledge of pedigrees could fill a thimble, so I'm certainly not the person to be writing the "be-all, end-all" treatise on them!

 

Alan

[lou_fine]

The collection was amassed by an art teacher who used the comics as demonstrations to students during the 1940's and 1950's. This is evident upon examination of most copies from the collection, as they have check marks and occasional notes next to the panels of art inside.

 

Alan;

 

Just a quick question here for you. Based upon the above comment: Do you know or have you heard of any Cosmic Aeroplane book that did not have the check marks or notes within the interior pages of the book?

 

Thanks;

[PedigreeMan]

The collection was amassed by an art teacher who used the comics as demonstrations to students during the 1940's and 1950's. This is evident upon examination of most copies from the collection, as they have check marks and occasional notes next to the panels of art inside.

 

Alan;

 

Just a quick question here for you. Based upon the above comment: Do you know or have you heard of any Cosmic Aeroplane book that did not have the check marks or notes within the interior pages of the book?

 

Thanks;

 

"Lou,"

 

Yes, the guy I corresponded with who saw the collection when it came into the Cosmic Aeroplane said he didn't recall seeing any checkmarks on a lot of the earlier books. He was under the impression that they were mostly present on the GGA books from the late '40s/early '50s.

 

So yes, I'm sure there are tons of Cosmic Aeroplane books scattered to the four winds with no way of determining their provenance.

 

Alan

[garthgantu]

...but without Chuck, where would the collection be now?

 

Well, according to Chuck the collection would be 12 feet down in a landfill somewhere outside Denver. But let's face it, Chuck is a master of revisionist history. For all we know, Church's heirs would have called a few more used book stores or comic dealers and gotten a better deal than the one from Chuck. We have only Chuck's version of events from which to work.

 

On the flipside, without the collection, we know where Chuck would be now... living out of a van somewhere in the desert, scrounging for peyote buttons and stealing mass-produced "Indian" pottery from roadside stands...

[adamstrange]

this was way too funny to read after i just finished dinner!