Do comics ever go down in price?

[awe4one]

I'd rather see the year-over-year numbers, rather than an eight-year spread.

 

Well then you're going to have to pull the numbers then. I don't have the time. I've shown you the declines. If you want to counter with facts, I'm listening. Regardless, the slip continues year in year out. There are a couple of years that bumped upward but not enough, obviously, to offset the declines since the prior year.

 

As for your point about cover prices, cover prices have increased 25% in eight years. Marvel's publishing sales revenues rose 16.4% last year alone. This clearly isn't just about jacking up cover prices.

 

Sure it is...the publishing increase is mainly due to the sale of TPBs not the monthlies themselves. Cover prices are steadly increasing in the monthlies as a stop gap to stem the loss of readers. If it wasn't for the TPBs, Marvel would be posting deficits...

 

Besides, don't you think that at least part of that 25% increase has been offset by increased costs of production in the last eight years?

 

No...new production techniques have stayed relatively in place since the Image start of the early 90s and were in place by 1997. But I think you knew that...

 

Jim

[precodekeith]

I'm new to collecting and I was wondering if prices ever go down or is it just up? Have prices ever gone down in the guide?

 

To answer the basic question first posed without delving into economic theory: YES, prices DO GO DOWN, and they HAVE previously gone down in the guide.

[awe4one]

To answer the basic question first posed without delving into economic theory: YES, prices DO GO DOWN, and they HAVE previously gone down in the guide.

 

Always timely and to the point Keith! If only you were here a 100 posts ago...

 

Jim

[sterlingcomics]

To answer the basic question first posed without delving into economic theory: YES, prices DO GO DOWN, and they HAVE previously gone down in the guide.

 

Always timely and to the point Keith! If only you were here a 100 posts ago...

 

Jim

 

Fashionably late to the party?

[awe4one]

To answer the basic question first posed without delving into economic theory: YES, prices DO GO DOWN, and they HAVE previously gone down in the guide.

 

Always timely and to the point Keith! If only you were here a 100 posts ago...

 

Jim

 

Fashionably late to the party?

 

Just kidding with Keith...

 

Essentially, he answered the question without all the associated fluff...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

Besides, don't you think that at least part of that 25% increase has been offset by increased costs of production in the last eight years?

 

No...new production techniques have stayed relatively in place since the Image start of the early 90s and were in place by 1997. But I think you knew that...

 

Jim

 

Actually, there have been tremendous savings in graphic production and printing in only the last 8 years you are talking about. Files are now emailed and posted on the internet ftpsites of printers and clients, elimianting shipping of zip disks, syquests etc as well as shipping costs themselves. Pencillers routinely email cams of their work so these savings extend to the very beginning of the production of the comic book. Also, finished proofs which used to very expensive Iris prints and even more expensive matchprint proofs at every step have been eliminated. And when needed are now digital matchprints that dont deen the expensive film step. Service bureaus which used to handle all of this are hurting! The only thing they supply that cant be done inhouse or elimayted completely are large poster sized output and meticulously produced product mockups often utilizing non CMYK Pantone inks.

 

I cant guesstimate just how much this saves DC and Marvel a year, or how much of these costs used to be passed along to their vendors (colorists and letterers, etc) at no cost to the comics companies, but it is just wrong to state that production technology has been stagnant since 1997 or that they havent saved $$$ as a result.

 

as to your discussion about sales, I think they hit botton a few years ago and have done better and better since the Marvel Knights/Jemas era first took hold. But that overall industry sales are still far below previous high water marks.

[awe4one]

I just noticed something that may be applicable to the discussion. At least as far as new comic sales is concerned...

 

I have about 10 different satellite stations devoted to adventure type cartoons. The vast majority of these cartoons are of the Anime variety. Dragonball Z, Ultimate Muscle, and the like. Even Teen Titans is fashioned in an Anime style. The only current adventure cartoon I can think of with traditional style animation, and the style associated with the majority of current comics, is Justice League. The new Batman is on the way but I haven't seen it yet.

 

What I'm getting at is kids are buying Manga in higher quantities. They are buying the format they are familiar with and enjoy in their cartoon watching. It may explain somewhat the appeal of Manga to kids today at the expense of traditional style comics.

 

As Gene has said previously, the Big Two have tried, half assed, to imitate Manga but are ultimately unsuccessful because it looks like an imitation and not the real deal. I think it may go farther than that. Kids are drawn toward Manga characters because that's what they are growing up on and enjoying every day watching cartoons. These characters are fresh in their minds and what we see as the classic superheroes are becoming passé with today's kids...

 

Just a thought...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

but it is just wrong to state that production technology has been stagnant since 1997 or that they havent saved $$$ as a result.

 

Please try to keep up...

 

If you'd have read what was being responded to, you'd see I was rebutting his assertion that "increased" production costs may be one of the reasons for price increases. I was stating that the increased production values occurred prior to 1997 so there wouldn't be an increase in costs. I have no doubt those costs have fallen...

 

Jim

[FFB]

but it is just wrong to state that production technology has been stagnant since 1997 or that they havent saved $$$ as a result.

 

Please try to keep up...

 

If you'd have read what was being responded to, you'd see I was rebutting his assertion that "increased" production costs may be one of the reasons for price increases. I was stating that the increased production values occurred prior to 1997 so there wouldn't be an increase in costs. I have no doubt those costs have fallen...

 

Jim

 

Wages increase from year to year for editorial staffers, contract labor, etc. Increased transportation costs (from the rising cost of gasoline) affect the cost of paper, ink, delivery, everything. Production costs increase whether or not production methods change.

[FFB]

I'd rather see the year-over-year numbers, rather than an eight-year spread.

 

Well then you're going to have to pull the numbers then. I don't have the time. I've shown you the declines. If you want to counter with facts, I'm listening. Regardless, the slip continues year in year out. There are a couple of years that bumped upward but not enough, obviously, to offset the declines since the prior year.

 

I did counter with facts (Marvel's increased revenues and profits in the last few fiscal years), and you haven't shown me any declines in the past few years. All you've shown me is that overall numbers are lower now than they were eight years ago. You've got time to post three or four paragraphs about Aman being wrong about production techniques and telling me that I'm wrong about Marvel's increased revenues, and you've got time to find and post numbers from eight years ago, but you don't have time to post numbers from the last two or three years? I guess they hid that most recent data pretty well, huh?

 

As for your point about cover prices, cover prices have increased 25% in eight years. Marvel's publishing sales revenues rose 16.4% last year alone. This clearly isn't just about jacking up cover prices.

 

Sure it is...the publishing increase is mainly due to the sale of TPBs not the monthlies themselves. Cover prices are steadly increasing in the monthlies as a stop gap to stem the loss of readers. If it wasn't for the TPBs, Marvel would be posting deficits...

 

You know this how?

 

Besides, don't you think that at least part of that 25% increase has been offset by increased costs of production in the last eight years?

 

No...new production techniques have stayed relatively in place since the Image start of the early 90s and were in place by 1997. But I think you knew that...

 

Jim

 

What does this have to do with the costs of production? Are you trying to say that if production techniques stay the same, then costs of production must also necessarily stay the same? That makes no sense. The cost of gasoline alone can result in wide variances in transportation costs, which filters into the costs of supplies, delivery, etc.

[awe4one]

I did counter with facts (Marvel's increased revenues and profits in the last few fiscal years),

 

Actually no...you've only given the just released 2004 numbers...

 

and you haven't shown me any declines in the past few years. All you've shown me is that overall numbers are lower now than they were eight years ago. You've got time to post three or four paragraphs about Aman being wrong about production techniques and telling me that I'm wrong about Marvel's increased revenues, and you've got time to find and post numbers from eight years ago, but you don't have time to post numbers from the last two or three years? I guess they hid that most recent data pretty well, huh?

 

The numbers I presented I'd already tabulated for my website so they were immediately available. I don't have the time to curb your overinflated, I'm never wrong, ego by proving you wrong again. I've been following the numbers for years. You obviously haven''t. You can go back yourself, find the info to support your assertion, and get back to me...going around in a circle jerk with you because you like to argue with no basis of fact is getting tiresome...

 

What does this have to do with the costs of production? Are you trying to say that if production techniques stay the same, then costs of production must also necessarily stay the same? That makes no sense. The cost of gasoline alone can result in wide variances in transportation costs, which filters into the costs of supplies, delivery, etc.

 

No...the cost of production usually falls as production methodologies become the norm. Marvel hasn't changed the general format of their comics since Image forced the Big Two to improve their production values in the early 90s.

 

There are associated tangent production aspects which have increased over the last 8 years but nowhere near enough to justify an across the board 25% increase. And I should mention, Marvel's cover prices have risen 10 cents a copy just in the last year alone...

 

Jim

[FFB]

I did counter with facts (Marvel's increased revenues and profits in the last few fiscal years),

 

Actually no...you've only given the just released 2004 numbers...

 

and you haven't shown me any declines in the past few years. All you've shown me is that overall numbers are lower now than they were eight years ago. You've got time to post three or four paragraphs about Aman being wrong about production techniques and telling me that I'm wrong about Marvel's increased revenues, and you've got time to find and post numbers from eight years ago, but you don't have time to post numbers from the last two or three years? I guess they hid that most recent data pretty well, huh?

 

The numbers I presented I'd already tabulated for my website so they were immediately available. I don't have the time to curb your overinflated, I'm never wrong, ego by proving you wrong again. I've been following the numbers for years. You obviously haven''t. You can go back yourself, find the info to support your assertion, and get back to me...going around in a circle jerk with you because you like to argue with no basis of fact is getting tiresome...

 

What does this have to do with the costs of production? Are you trying to say that if production techniques stay the same, then costs of production must also necessarily stay the same? That makes no sense. The cost of gasoline alone can result in wide variances in transportation costs, which filters into the costs of supplies, delivery, etc.

 

No...the cost of production usually falls as production methodologies become the norm. Marvel hasn't changed the general format of their comics since Image forced the Big Two to improve their production values in the early 90s.

 

There are associated tangent production aspects which have increased over the last 8 years but nowhere near enough to justify an across the board 25% increase. And I should mention, Marvel's cover prices have risen 10 cents a copy just in the last year alone...

 

Jim

 

SOP for you, eh Jim? Since we're not really talking about publishing facts now, I should point out that your standard tactic of engaging in petty insults whenever someone disagrees with you speaks to YOUR overinflated ego. .

[FFB]

but it is just wrong to state that production technology has been stagnant since 1997 or that they havent saved $$$ as a result.

 

Please try to keep up...

 

If you'd have read what was being responded to, you'd see I was rebutting his assertion that "increased" production costs may be one of the reasons for price increases. I was stating that the increased production values occurred prior to 1997 so there wouldn't be an increase in costs. I have no doubt those costs have fallen...

 

Jim

 

By the way -- "please try to keep up..." strikes me as an obnoxious and egotistical way to respond to someone (Aman) who is trying to engage you in a simple discussion, don't you think? Is "Condescending" your middle name? If you were half as sharp as you pretend to be, maybe you could keep up with a conversation without having to insult those who don't agree with your every word.

[awe4one]

[ SOP for you, eh Jim? Since we're not really talking about publishing facts now, I should point out that your standard tactic of engaging in petty insults whenever someone disagrees with you speaks to YOUR overinflated ego. .

 

I presented you with publishing facts...all you can counter with is "find these other facts for me"...SOP as usual for you when you're faced with being wrong...

 

But again, nice facts to back up your points yet again...you really make it too easy sometimes...

 

Unlike you...I can admit to being wrong and have done it many many times on this Forum. To include paying off a bet. Can you say the same thing? All I've seen recently is hypocrisy coming from your end. Seems to me you're the one who needs to look in the mirror...or I fear you'll have everyone on ignore or them you...

 

Think of this as an intervention...

 

Jim

[FFB]

[ SOP for you, eh Jim? Since we're not really talking about publishing facts now, I should point out that your standard tactic of engaging in petty insults whenever someone disagrees with you speaks to YOUR overinflated ego. .

 

I presented you with publishing facts...all you can counter with is "find these other facts for me"...SOP as usual for you when you're faced with being wrong...

 

But again, nice facts to back up your points yet again...you really make it too easy sometimes...

 

Unlike you...I can admit to being wrong and have done it many many times on this Forum. To include paying off a bet. Can you say the same thing? All I've seen recently is hypocrisy coming from your end. Seems to me you're the one who needs to look in the mirror...or I fear you'll have everyone on ignore or them you...

 

Think of this as an intervention...

 

Jim

 

Actually, if you go back and look, you'll see that this initially started out as me trying to have a civilized discussion with you about a supposed "continuing decline" in publishing numbers. It sounded like you had some information that I didn't know how to find, so I asked you if you had it to please post it. I wasn't looking to be "right," I was asking you to show me information that you appeared to have that would be contrary to what I believed to be true based on Marvel's publishing financial numbers over the last few years. In response, you posted information that was eight years old. I simply pointed out (with no insults or snide remarks to you) that comparing current publishing numbers to eight-year-old information does not prove that the market continues to be in a year-over-year decline, especially when Marvel has been reporting increases (in some cases, double-digit increases) in revenues and profitability from year to year since at least 2002. I also asked if you had anything more recent because I don't know where to find that data. You then flew into a tizzy, started acting like an immature jerk and making snide comments and insults toward not only me but also to Aman, and now that's suddenly my fault and I need an intervention. Riiiiiiiiight.

 

You are giving yourself way too much credit here. But since it's futile to have any kind of a discussion with you without it turning into a pizzing match, I won't even try anymore.

[greggy]

Maybe you should add another person to your growing ignore list?

[FFB]

Maybe you should add another person to your growing ignore list?

 

You mean you?

[greggy]

Maybe you should add another person to your growing ignore list?

 

You mean you?

Perhaps...perhaps not!

[FFB]

Maybe you should add another person to your growing ignore list?

 

You mean you?

Perhaps...perhaps not!

 

[Illiterati-migration]

[ SOP for you, eh Jim? Since we're not really talking about publishing facts now, I should point out that your standard tactic of engaging in petty insults whenever someone disagrees with you speaks to YOUR overinflated ego. .

 

I presented you with publishing facts...all you can counter with is "find these other facts for me"...SOP as usual for you when you're faced with being wrong...

 

But again, nice facts to back up your points yet again...you really make it too easy sometimes...

 

Unlike you...I can admit to being wrong and have done it many many times on this Forum. To include paying off a bet. Can you say the same thing? All I've seen recently is hypocrisy coming from your end. Seems to me you're the one who needs to look in the mirror...or I fear you'll have everyone on ignore or them you...

 

Think of this as an intervention...

 

Jim

 

Actually, if you go back and look, you'll see that this initially started out as me trying to have a civilized discussion with you about a supposed "continuing decline" in publishing numbers. It sounded like you had some information that I didn't know how to find, so I asked you if you had it to please post it. I wasn't looking to be "right," I was asking you to show me information that you appeared to have that would be contrary to what I believed to be true based on Marvel's publishing financial numbers over the last few years. In response, you posted information that was eight years old. I simply pointed out (with no insults or snide remarks to you) that comparing current publishing numbers to eight-year-old information does not prove that the market continues to be in a year-over-year decline, especially when Marvel has been reporting increases (in some cases, double-digit increases) in revenues and profitability from year to year since at least 2002. I also asked if you had anything more recent because I don't know where to find that data. You then flew into a tizzy, started acting like an immature jerk and making snide comments and insults toward not only me but also to Aman, and now that's suddenly my fault and I need an intervention. Riiiiiiiiight.

 

You are giving yourself way too much credit here. But since it's futile to have any kind of a discussion with you without it turning into a pizzing match, I won't even try anymore.

 

Good lord, you two go down this road EVERY time you talk.

 

"Think of this as an intervention..."