Larryw7 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 "Evolving with Star Trek" means spinoffs, TV shows , overexposure and general apathy. Star Wars has always been an event. Take that away, and diminishing returns set in. Remember that each modern Star Trek reboot film grossed less and less, with Beyond doing so poorly they're ready to reboot the movies again. We're already seeing the same thing with TLJ. Yes, the box office is huge, but it's having a bad multiplier. It should have easily gotten to 700 million based on its huge opening, but now experts are saying it will be lucky to outgross Jurassic World and The Avengers. If Solo is a flop or underperforms, the Star Wars name will be even farther tarnished. I'm not optimistic about Disney's future handling of SW unless they take a major course correction. namisgr and thedude 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEnglandGothic Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 37 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said: The second week drop-off isn't nearly as bad as you characterize it because it rebounded in week 3. We see this _especially_ in comparing the second to third weekends The second weekend fall of 68% for TLJ (vs. just 40% for TFA) is mostly attributable to Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday this year. It rebounded on Christmas Monday (as expected), meaning it fell just 55% over the 4-day frame. More importantly, it rebounded in the third weekend, falling just 27% (vs. TFA's falling 40%). And again, it was hurt slightly by New Year's Eve being that Sunday, and made up more ground on Monday. This shows in its daily progress as well -- it lost ground to films like Jurassic World on a day-to-day comparative basis in Week 2, only to stomp Jurassic World and others day-to-day in Week 3. But the bigger picture is this -- and relates to the portion I bolded. With this film, Disney laid the necessary groundwork with this film to sever ties to the Skywalker family -- thus enabling them to build any number of other stories in other trilogies and one-off projects for decades to come. Far from "hurting future sales," I think they smartly sacrificed repeat sales for this film from a small portion of 40-something die-hard fans -- in aid of much stronger sales on a great number of future films over the long-term. By going the unexpected (but necessary) route -- Disney ripped off the band-aid, and set themselves up to evolve as Star Trek did -- enabling how many more series with entirely different casts over the years? Five (so far)? Who cares about (say) a $250 million hit on Episode 8 if it directly enables Episodes 10-18 to each be solid $800 million films, to say nothing of the various "Star Wars Story" one-offs in between? That's what everybody really wants in the end when you are approaching a tenth installment. Something unpredictably fresh. You don't want a gimmick like Jason going to space, but something shaken, but not stirred like "The Spy Who Loved Me." Whether they follow it up with a "Moonraker," remains to be seen. ComicConnoisseur 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEnglandGothic Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, Larryw7 said: "Evolving with Star Trek" means spinoffs, TV shows , overexposure and general apathy. Star Wars has always been an event. Take that away, and diminishing returns set in. Remember that each modern Star Trek reboot film grossed less and less, with Beyond doing so poorly they're ready to reboot the movies again. We're already seeing the same thing with TLJ. Yes, the box office is huge, but it's having a bad multiplier. It should have easily gotten to 700 million based on its huge opening, but now experts are saying it will be lucky to outgross Jurassic World and The Avengers. If Solo is a flop or underperforms, the Star Wars name will be even farther tarnished. I'm not optimistic about Disney's future handling of SW unless they take a major course correction. Justin Lin might have delivered an ensemble franchise like the "Furious" movies to a global marketplace, but the crew of the Star Trek are a real "family," with respect to Dom's crew in those movies. I never thought Lin would have been able to respect that team's dynamic, in favor of "sweet" 2nd unit shots. What we got was a valiant effort by the cast and writers, but basically a retread of the TV show, that our parent's used to watch for on the telly for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gatsby77 said: You want to see a good example and a bad example of same-era films? Last Jedi is the second-fastest film to $500 million domestic ever, on a short list of only nine films to hit that mark. The fact that it's already # 6 on the all-time chart in less than three weeks speaks volumes. It will easily best The Dark Knight and The Avengers domestically, and will likely surpass Jurassic World as well. As Scott Forbes put it, in (non-inflation-adjusted terms) it's on track to beat every other movie ever that was not called The Force Awakens or directed by James Cameron. Bad example? Justice League. What was billed as DC's Avengers instead made less in its entire domestic run than The Last Jedi made in four days. Box Office: 'The Last Jedi' Got Slammed For Performing Like A 'Star Wars' Movie https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/04/4-ways-the-last-jedi-got-slammed-for-performing-as-predicted/#6665312c815d As predicted many times going way back to right when The Force Awakens ended its run, this second installment of a given Star Wars trilogy is going to end up at around 28-32% less than The Force Awakens. RT fan ratings have a lot less weight when other polling like IMDB shows scores as low as 7.6 (IMDB) to numerous polling in the 80's (like Survey Monkey 89%), to an A(Cinemascore) Others include: PostTrak audience score is 82%. Fandango audience polling has 4.5 stars out of 5 ComScore/Screen Engine reports a five-out-of-five stars for the movie and a 90% overall positive with an 82% definite recommend. Edited January 4, 2018 by Rip rjrjr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WernerVonDoom Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 There is no possible way that a good Star Wars movie with the return of Luke Skywalker doesn't get 90%+ of the Force Awakens. Hell, a movie with no dialogue with Luke dicing up bad guys for two hours would have made as much as TLJ. No exaggeration. zhamlau, I like pie, Larryw7 and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatsby77 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 7 hours ago, Werner_Von_Doom said: Hell, a movie with no dialogue with Luke dicing up bad guys for two hours would have made as much as TLJ. No exaggeration. WTF? Luke would _never_ do that. Did y'all not see the original trilogy? In Star Wars, Kenobi turned off his lightsaber when fighting Vader. In Empire, Luke let himself fall (i.e., suicide) rather than join Vader. And in Jedi, Luke threw his lightsaber away. The whole point of Star Wars is that good Jedi (those attuned to the Light) don't kill like that. Which is why it was a big deal that Luke came close to killing Kylo when he slept (to save literally thousands of lives), but even then he didn't succumb. Do y'all even Star Wars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said: The whole point of Star Wars is that good Jedi (those attuned to the Light) don't kill like that. Usually, but when faced with the "would you kill Hitler before World War 2" scenario normal standards of morality and ethics are out the window. Mace Windu thought so too at 3:08 in the video below when faced with the reality that Darth Sidious was in control of the Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybuck43 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 15 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said: WTF? Luke would _never_ do that. Did y'all not see the original trilogy? In Star Wars, Kenobi turned off his lightsaber when fighting Vader. In Empire, Luke let himself fall (i.e., suicide) rather than join Vader. And in Jedi, Luke threw his lightsaber away. The whole point of Star Wars is that good Jedi (those attuned to the Light) don't kill like that. Which is why it was a big deal that Luke came close to killing Kylo when he slept (to save literally thousands of lives), but even then he didn't succumb. Do y'all even Star Wars? Hmmm.... "Jabba, free us or die" doesn't exactly mesh with Jedi not killing like that. And of course there is the deaths of the Wampa and Rancor.... Not to mention all of the workers on the Death Stars he blew up... Luke had a pretty good body count in the original trilogy. Larryw7, zhamlau, I like pie and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 minute ago, jaybuck43 said: Hmmm.... "Jabba, free us or die" doesn't exactly mesh with Jedi not killing like that. Does this mean Leia isn't much of a Jedi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybuck43 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: Does this mean Leia isn't much of a Jedi? She's never cut off someone's arm... so no, not much of a Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatsby77 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 32 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: Usually, but when faced with the "would you kill Hitler before World War 2" scenario normal standards of morality and ethics are out the window. Mace Windu thought so too at 3:08 in the video below when faced with the reality that Darth Sidious was in control of the Republic. So...Luke should have struck down Kylo Ren while he slept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperheart Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 the powers that be still haven't figured out how to make the franchise relevant in China Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said: So...Luke should have struck down Kylo Ren while he slept? I don't know what he saw so I have no clear idea on that. All he described in the film was a deep darkness...certainly the majority of that vision has come to pass with Kylo taking control of the First Order. What they end up doing could be far worse than we've seen to date, and it's possible that future is what it is he saw that inspired him to consider killing him. Given the decades of death, destruction, and oppression by the Empire either directly shown or implied by everything up through Episode VI, it's certainly clear that Mace Windu SHOULD have killed Sidious. Since Kylo is now in the seat of power closest to Sidious's, then the answer is probably yes, Luke should have killed him. He certainly showed himself to be as merciless as Sidious when he ordered Phasma's troops to kill that entire village on Jakku in the opening scene of Force Awakens. Edited January 5, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Gatsby77 said: WTF? Luke would _never_ do that. Did y'all not see the original trilogy? In Star Wars, Kenobi turned off his lightsaber when fighting Vader. After earlier slicing off limbs, and dueling Vader even though Ben was elderly...knowing he couldn't win. In Empire, Luke let himself fall (i.e., suicide) rather than join Vader. After battling viciously, even wounding Vader, and only stopping because he lost his saber and hand. And in Jedi, Luke threw his lightsaber away. After viciously battling Vader, who he now knew was his father, to the point of besting him in battle. The whole point of Star Wars is that good Jedi (those attuned to the Light) don't kill like that. Except Kenobi and Maul, and Windu and Fett, and Yoda and those decapitated Clone troopers, Kenobi killing Grievous,..... Which is why it was a big deal that Luke came close to killing Kylo when he slept (to save literally thousands of lives), but even then he didn't succumb. Do y'all even Star Wars? There was only one active, sorta-Jedi, in the original trilogy. Two, on their death bed, mentors living in remote locations.....and a Padawan-turned-Knight. So not a ton of options for battling. The only time we actually saw Jedi in battle....Lucas tried to dodge the topic of slaughter with all the robots, but when faced with life and death situations the Jedi did not hesitate to waste their opponents. If they didn't need Palpatine for the plot in the original trilogy I think they demonstrated Windu was ready to put him down. There are still chunks of Darth Maul in the Naboo ventilation system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, comix4fun said: There are still chunks of Darth Maul in the Naboo ventilation system. In one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived of in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, Darth Maul survived being cut in half. Edited January 5, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: In one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived of in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, Darth Maul survived being cut in half. Yeah, my son mentioned that to me. He saw him in one of he animated series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybuck43 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 33 minutes ago, fantastic_four said: In one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived of in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, Darth Maul survived being cut in half. Padme LITERALLY died of sadness, and you think THIS is one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived? They kept a badass villain alive. Hell, there is actually precedence of this happening before. Remember the scene where Boba Fett is eaten by the Sarlacc? Yea he survived in the EU. O and that is technically cannon now that both Lucas and Disney confirmed it (Disney was even originally trying to work him into TFA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said: Padme LITERALLY died of sadness, and you think THIS is one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived? Haha, i completely forgot about that. So Padme died of the weepies and her grandson Luke died of the Sleepies. 1. Obi-wan = dies by lightsabre 2. Qui-gon= dies by lightsabre 3. Darth Maul = Dies by Lightsabre 4. Vader = Dies by lightsabre and force lightning 5. Han = Dies by lightsabre 6. Mace Windu = Dies by Lightsabre 7. Luke = Dies cause he got super tired from a hard day sitting on his rock. So...historically in SW bad@$$es die by lightsabre. Man that really puts into perspective what a job Rian did with Luke. He just did everything he could to make him pathetic and disposable....sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 32 minutes ago, jaybuck43 said: Padme LITERALLY died of sadness, and you think THIS is one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived? They kept a badass villain alive. Hell, there is actually precedence of this happening before. Remember the scene where Boba Fett is eaten by the Sarlacc? Yea he survived in the EU. O and that is technically cannon now that both Lucas and Disney confirmed it (Disney was even originally trying to work him into TFA) Yea they showed the new Darth Maul in the Clones Wars cartoon and that one is still canon, but I'll eat my hat if they ever show Darth Maul in one of the movies. Plus Obi-Wan killed him a second time in that cartoon, so the only place he ever even could appear is in a story set in the middle of the prequel films. Maul is THE coolest villain in Star Wars, he just suffers from almost no development in Episode I before Lucas committed the horrible crime of killing off the coolest villain he had ever created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantastic_four Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, zhamlau said: 6. Mace Windu = Dies by Lightsabre He died from either Force lightning or a fall, I believe. It's at the end of the clip I just included a dozen or so posts back. Or with the freedom the Expanded Universe guys felt to resurrect characters, maybe he's still alive! I liked everything about this scene except one huge thing--Sidious whacks Kit Fisto with a single swipe that Fisto should easily have seen coming. That was just lame, lame, lame, and more lame. There's a lot of bad in Revenge of the Sith, but there's so much great stuff I still rank it really high among the films. I could pick half a dozen epic scenes from Episode III that eclipse EVERYTHING in Revenge Return of the Jedi. Edited January 5, 2018 by fantastic_four Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
