King Kirby and the Bronze Age: A Period of Decline?

[bronze johnny]

Hello Fellow Forumites!

 

I've seen other threads about some really great comic book artists. And I recently heard someone say that "the 1970s were a period of decline for Jack Kirby."

 

Let's look at this and see whether there is any truth to this.

 

I am going to list some of the Bronze Age Books that the King did for reference:

 

Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen

The Forever People

The New Gods

Mister Miracle

Kamandi

The Demon

Kobra

O.M.A.C.

Sandman

Boy Commandos (Reprint)

Black Magic (Reprint)

2001: A Space Odyssey

Machine Man

Devil Dinosaur

Captain Victory

[supapimp]

don't forget captain america when he returns in issue #193.

[bronze johnny]

Thanks Supapimp. We'll of course add this to the list of books.

 

What do you think about the 70s Kirby stuff?

[supapimp]

hated it.

[bronze johnny]

Why?

 

The stories?

 

The art?

 

The concepts (Fourth World)?

[supapimp]

his art got to "square".

[tth2]

Why?

 

The stories?

 

The art?

 

The concepts (Fourth World)?

 

Stories and dialogue were horrible. I laugh everytime people say that it was Jack and not Stan that did all the real work in producing Marvel early on. Jack was completely incapable of producing the kinds of stories and dialogue that characterized Marvel. Simply put, he wrote with the sophistication of a 2nd grader. I was 12 or so when Jack returned to Marvel, and even then I thought his writing sucked.

 

The art was okay in the early part of the 1970s, when he did his 4th World work. It progressively declined and by the late 1970s and early 80s when he did work for an indy, his work was a caricature of itself.

 

Fourth World concept was cool, but he couldn't execute. It would have been nice if he could have worked with a decent writer who could take his ideas and turn them into something decent. Again, as the 70s wore on, his ideas ran out of steam too.

 

Hey, I don't blame the guy, he was getting old and the quality of his work declined from his salad days. Happens to everybody! I'm just amazed when I see people trying to build his 70s work up as something that it's not.

[Zonker]

I'm in the minority here, but I thought his Fourth World stuff was brilliant! It's hard to put oneself back into the pre-Star Wars mindset of 1971 to appreciate Kirby's original combination of space opera and pseudo 60's style mysticism. Yes, his dialogue sucked, but that was less of a problem with the Forever People, Orion, Highfather, etc. Who's to say that's not how aliens from Apokolips or New Genesis would sound like? And I liked the early period when Royer was first inking Kirby's stuff. I think what happened is after his New Gods magnum opus was cancelled mid-stream, the fight just went out of Kirby and he never again put as much soul into his work.

 

I've found his later 70s and 1980s stuff virtually unreadable: latter Kamandi issues, the Cap Mad-Bomb storyline, Captain Victory & the Galactic Rangers, the Hunger Dogs...

[the blob]

I wonder if the work would have been better had he not been trying to do like 6 titles a month? That's like 4 or 5 pages a day with no breaks. How do you have time to think things through, correct mistakes, etc? He was clearly trying to make as much money as possible from DC to make up for the 30 years where he had been getting paid squat (altough good squat compared to a lot of other artists).

 

I own a Captain Victory page (even later and worse). I guess the only reason i could afford it because it was from his period of serious decline.

[tth2]

Yes, his dialogue sucked, but that was less of a problem with the Forever People, Orion, Highfather, etc. Who's to say that's not how aliens from Apokolips or New Genesis would sound like?

A unique defense if I've ever heard one!

[Zonker]

A unique defense if I've ever heard one!

 

[shadroch]

I was first introduced to The New Gods in Gerry Conwys ROTNGs. Loved that series. When I tracked down the five year old back issues,I hated them. Meet Mr Miracle in a 100 page Brave and Bold. Loved the character,hated the back issues.His run on Captain America,coming at the run of the Secret Empire story arc was simply pathetic.

Lets not forget his immortal Green Team and Atlas issues of First Issue Special.

Kirby was The King but by the mid-Bronze age

he was a shadow of his former self.He may have had some great concepts but his writing sucked and in the end,so did his artwork.

About the only work from his later days I admire is his Last Of The Viking Heroes.

[awe4one]

You forgot Eternals...probably on purpose...

 

Kirby work after leaving Marvel for DC was uniformly terrible in my opinion. Nice art on some of the early work, particularly New Gods, but ultimately these comics were basically unreadable. I always suspected Kirby took the brown acid and his DC work was the result...

 

The only DC Kirby which doesn't elict a groan from me is the first 10 issues of Kamandi. And I don't hold that comic in high esteem either...

 

Jim

[tth2]

You forgot Eternals...probably on purpose...

 

Eternals is another example of a not bad concept from Kirby (albeit stolen from Chariot of the Gods) but execrably executed. Some of his art wasn't bad in this series. A lot of the characters he created in the Fourth World and the Eternals are some of his cooler looking characters.

[namisgr]

Another minority opinion, but I liked some of Kirby's early DC work, such as the first few Jimmy Olsen's, Kamandi's, and the Demon. Not comparing it to the work he did with Stan, but I still thought it was enjoyable. Demon, in particular, is overlooked, and it is dirt cheap to pick up the early and enjoyable part of the series.

[Foolkiller]

I couldn't stand Jack's 70s work. I thought it was pretty poor, and the dialog was terrible. Although I give Jack credit for many of the Silver Age creations in their look and feel, to me, that is why Stan will always outrank Jack as the Father of Marvel Comics. Had Jack been dialoging and plotting entirely, I think you would have some very unmemorable comics.

[Sharkey]

I've found his later 70s and 1980s stuff virtually unreadable: latter Kamandi issues, the Cap Mad-Bomb storyline, Captain Victory & the Galactic Rangers, the Hunger Dogs...

 

I agree that the Mad Bomb storyline was less than steller. Jack was getting up there in years and his physical abilities weren't as strong as they were 10 or 20 years earlier.

 

Two books of Jack's that stand out to me as being the best work he did during that era are Captain America Annuals 3 and 4. Number 3 was a classic intergalactic vampire story and # 4 was a great mutant/Magneto story. In my opinion the stories, dialog, and pacing were on par with Jack's best work of the Bronze Age.

 

[Red Hook]

"OKAY! LET'S DO IT! STAND BY FOR "ZAP-OUT!"

 

- cover dialog, Captain Victory #8.

 

[Jayman]

"OKAY! LET'S DO IT! STAND BY FOR "ZAP-OUT!"

 

- cover dialog, Captain Victory #8.

 

 

[bronze johnny]

Jim, thanks for sharing your insight.

 

I did not intentionally forget the Eternals.

 

The purpose of this thread is to hopefully try to evaluate the Bronze Age works of Comicbookdom's greatest artist. I am not here to defend Kirby's Bronze Age works but rather, to see what Kirby was trying to accomplish during the 1970s. Was Kirby trying to create a new mythological basis for the American Comic Book? Is the Bronze Age "the Fall of King Kirby?" Was he just trying to hang on? Did his artistic powers simply decline or did the comic book change? Or did the tastes of comic book readers change? Did the new generation of 1970s comic book readers reject the "Kirby Way?"

 

These are some of the many issues that arise.

 

In order to better understand and appreciate the Bronze Age, it is significant that Kirby's work be seriously looked at.

 

If we are going to criticize Kirby's Bronze Age work, then we had better back our positions up. We must be fair in our criticisms of the King's Bronze Age work.. Remember, Kirby was always ahead of his time and he is the one constant that spans through the Golden, Silver & Bronze Ages. It is not enough to say that his work was unreadable or as someone else said, his work was bad.

 

One real way to crtitique Kirby's Bronze Age work product is by comparing it to his earlier Golden and Silver Age works. Maybe then we better understand this comic book icon.

 

Let's see if we can get some Kirby experts to share some of their knowledge about the King.

 

BronzeJohnny