King Kirby and the Bronze Age: A Period of Decline?

[Red Hook]

[king_felix-migration]

Syd Barrett too. Did make a couple of good solo LP's later though. A bit up and down, but the one Gilmour produced with most of the Soft Machine on, was great.

 

[bronze johnny]

Zonker,

 

Another indication of just how significant Kirby's Fourth World is to the Bronze Age comes from Robert Overstreet himself. The Overstreet Hall of Fame has Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133; The New Gods #1; Forever People #1; and Mister Miracle #1.

When Kamandi #1 is added to this, there is no, and I REPEAT no comic book artist who can claim to have more books in the Overstreet Bronze Age Comic Book Hall of Fame. So much for the Fourth World being a non-event during the Bronze Age.

 

Nuff said!

 

 

(Although I am sure there is at least one individual on this thread who believes s/he know more about the American Comic Book than Mr. Overstreet himself)

[ComicBookGuy]

I actually like the Kirby 1970s stuff and cherish complete runs of ALL of it.

But I will qualify my statement. His work started out well but declined gradually as the decade wore on. He started out with Forever People and ended with what? Devil Dinosaur? Pretty much this is from best to worst of his 1970s works, although I would say my favorites of his were Mister Miracle, Machine Man, and, don't laugh, 2001. I was a huge fan of the movie, so ANYTHING relating to 2001 I devoured. It was not great literature, but it was fun and interesting nonetheless. I don't want to say Devil Dinosaur "sucked," cause I think it's really disrespectful, but it is clearly not Kirby at his peak.

Zonker, thanks for posting the Harlan Ellison letter. I can see his points, but I would agree with every word of his letter if he had written it to praise, say, SWAMP THING, which I think fits the bill as a TRULY great Bronze comic. I don't think anything Kirby did in the 1970s qualifies in my book as truly great, but his work on FF and Thor and Captain America is some of the greatest comic art ever.

Let's keep in mind that we all have our tastes and we'll never agree on something like this, but we can enjoy hearing each others' viewpoints.

By the way, Black Panther should be on the list too, right???

Joe

[Tango 'n Cash]

Another indication of just how significant Kirby's Fourth World is to the Bronze Age comes from Robert Overstreet himself. The Overstreet Hall of Fame has Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133; The New Gods #1; Forever People #1; and Mister Miracle #1.

 

No, that just shows what a huge fan Bob is of Jack Kirby, which is not in correlation to the individual quality of the above works. If Jack had crapped out a turd, Bob would probably frame it.

[bronze johnny]

I actually like the Kirby 1970s stuff and cherish complete runs of ALL of it.

But I will qualify my statement. His work started out well but declined gradually as the decade wore on. He started out with Forever People and ended with what? Devil Dinosaur? Pretty much this is from best to worst of his 1970s works, although I would say my favorites of his were Mister Miracle, Machine Man, and, don't laugh, 2001. I was a huge fan of the movie, so ANYTHING relating to 2001 I devoured. It was not great literature, but it was fun and interesting nonetheless. I don't want to say Devil Dinosaur "sucked," cause I think it's really disrespectful, but it is clearly not Kirby at his peak.

Zonker, thanks for posting the Harlan Ellison letter. I can see his points, but I would agree with every word of his letter if he had written it to praise, say, SWAMP THING, which I think fits the bill as a TRULY great Bronze comic. I don't think anything Kirby did in the 1970s qualifies in my book as truly great, but his work on FF and Thor and Captain America is some of the greatest comic art ever.

Let's keep in mind that we all have our tastes and we'll never agree on something like this, but we can enjoy hearing each others' viewpoints.

By the way, Black Panther should be on the list too, right???

Joe

 

Hello Joe,

I agree with you that Kirby's work was in decline during the late 70s. But I still enjoyed his work. My hope in starting this thread is to bring the debate on. And I truly believe this is happening.

 

I've seen some really good criticisms about Kirby's Bronze Age work but I don't see any of it sticking to the Fourth World. And the Fourth World is the reason why Kirby deserves a place on the Bronze Age "Dais."

 

-When looking at Kirby there is one amazing thing (among the many others of course) that I (and I'm sure others) have noticed is that the King was there at the creation of all three great Comic Ages and he, unlike other great artists that were mentioned in this thread (Swan, Kane, & Kubert) (Stan Lee/Lieber-What great contributions did he make to the Golden Age? Another Thread of course) was greatly (not solely of course) responsible for the origin and developement of each of them. Examples of this are:

 

The Golden Age: The superpatriot as hero reaches it apex with Simon and Kirby's Captain America.

 

The Silver Age: The redefinition of the herois teams as demonstrated in Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown and thereafter followed by the King's Fantastic Four (along with Lee's help of course).

 

The Bronze Age: The Fourth World and Kirby's new vision and its mythological basis) Which he again unsuccessfully attempted to do with the Eternals later on.

 

Each of these examples demonstrate how Kirby was at the "forefront" of each age and is one of the reasons why he is called the King.

 

Thanks for adding the Black Panther.

 

By the way, I loved 2001 and Machine Man.

 

John

[verygoodplus]

As an unabashed fan of Jack's 70's output*, I could try to muster an eloquent defense, or at least offer an alternative viewpoint, but the tone of the opposition is already so strident and combative I don’t see any common ground being reached here.

 

Entering into grim, protracted arguments on matters of taste on the internet is surely one the least fruitful endeavors one can undertake. I have a number of esoteric interests, and it would take up all my time if I felt I had to defend every one of my tastes that ran counter to conventional wisdom.

 

Having said that, I can‘t help but make a couple of observations:

 

Kirby’s writing is not sophisticated. Throughout his career, I believe his creations were aimed squarely at 8 to 12-year-olds, though Stan’s dialogue helped broaden the appeal to an older crowd during their partnership.

 

Kirby’s mature art is very stylized (like Ditko‘s work it‘s often more symbolic than realistic). Royer’s inks really accentuated the abstract nature of Jack’s art (for better or for worse, depending on your viewpoint).

 

Based on these two points, I can completely understand that the comics in question are not everyone’s cup of tea. I absolutely respect that. A bit of respect for those with a contrary view would be nice.

 

Please do not make the mistake of assuming that those who appreciate this work, warts and all, are being sycophantic, intellectually dishonest or just plain dumb. Plenty of intelligent, creative, critically-thinking comics fans and professionals enjoy the fruits of Kirby’s later years.

 

 

 

 

*Yeah, I even like ol' Devil Dinosaur:

 

[Aman619]

I respectfully have one question for those here who are offended that any of us consider Kirbys 70s work to be evidence of a decline. Please rank each of Jacks comics eras in order of greatness, in your opinion:

 

Golden Age

Silver Age

Bronze Age

ModernAge

[Zonker]

Hey, no way am I offended that anyone has a different opinion than mine. I am bummed at the tone of some of the piling-on here by some of the Kirby detractors.

[shadroch]

 

Since you asked,

Silver Age-Kirby is the Master

Golden Age-I'm not really all that familar with alot of Kirbys work in this era. I perfer Schomburgs Cap to Kirbys. Off my limited exposure to this age,I wouldn't place Kirby at the top of the page in this era. I'd put Lou Fine,Crendell and a few others above him.

Bronze Age-Early stuff had vision but no execution.Middle of the pack,at best.

Modern-Liked the Last of The Viking Heroes but can't think of anything else worth killing a tree to produce. The Kirbyverse by Topps?

The one era you didn't ask about-The newly labeled Atomic Age is one where Kirby really stood out. The man could flat-out draw aliens,monsters and the like.

[ComicBookGuy]

I respectfully have one question for those here who are offended that any of us consider Kirbys 70s work to be evidence of a decline. Please rank each of Jacks comics eras in order of greatness, in your opinion:

 

Golden Age

Silver Age

Bronze Age

ModernAge

 

I don't think anyone's offended by different viewpoints -- except when they are disrespectful to Jack Kirby himself. The guy is dead and cannot defend himself. He's done a lot for comics. And, yes, his work declined throughout the 1970s. I absolutely cannot lump his early bronze with his later bronze work. That being said, I would rate him somewhat this way:

 

#1: His peak, from about 1964 to 1972.

#2: From about 1955-1963.

#3 Tied: beginning to 1954, 1973-1980

#4: Worst: 1980 on

[ComicBookGuy]

Entering into grim, protracted arguments on matters of taste on the internet is surely one the least fruitful endeavors one can undertake. I have a number of esoteric interests, and it would take up all my time if I felt I had to defend every one of my tastes that ran counter to conventional wisdom.

 

...I can completely understand that the comics in question are not everyone’s cup of tea. I absolutely respect that. A bit of respect for those with a contrary view would be nice.

 

 

Well said! I am all for civil discussions.

 

Joe

[tth2]

Syd Barrett too. Did make a couple of good solo LP's later though. A bit up and down, but the one Gilmour produced with most of the Soft Machine on, was great.

 

 

Geez, KF, did you have to post this picture of middle-aged Syd? I preferred to keep my illusion of the Swingin' London-era Syd Barrett forever frozen in time.

[tth2]

I don't think anyone's offended by different viewpoints -- except when they are disrespectful to Jack Kirby himself. The guy is dead and cannot defend himself. He's done a lot for comics. And, yes, his work declined throughout the 1970s. I absolutely cannot lump his early bronze with his later bronze work. That being said, I would rate him somewhat this way:

 

#1: His peak, from about 1964 to 1972.

#2: From about 1955-1963.

#3 Tied: beginning to 1954, 1973-1980

#4: Worst: 1980 on

 

Joe, I'm in agreement with your selections, as many other Kirby fans would be.

 

As you know, I'm all for civil debate, and have enjoyed the different viewpoints espoused in this thread. I have to admit I don't care for Bronzejohnny's snide tone, though, and don't believe he has really added much to the conversation. I understand he thinks the Fourth World is the greatest thing since sliced bread, which is all well and good, and even most of us who have criticized Kirby's BA work here have acknowledged that the concept was great, but lacking in the execution.

 

However, he has not done anything to refute the specific criticisms of Kirby's work that have been raised, e.g., the poor writing and decline in art, except to keep saying that the man was a god and the Fourth World was such a great concept. Simpy citing Bob Overstreet as another supporter of Fourth World doesn't really cut it, it's just another person's opinion as far as I'm concerned. Does he genuinely believe the dialogue in Kirby's BA books was good? Does he think the quality of art was good? I wouldn't criticize him for saying so, he's entitled to his opinions. But I actually want to hear a real opinion of his.

[bronze johnny]

I have to admit I don't care for Bronzejohnny's snide tone, though, and don't believe he has really added much to the conversation.

 

First, let me apologize if I offended you.

 

 

I understand he thinks the Fourth World is the greatest thing since sliced bread, which is all well and good, and even most of us who have criticized Kirby's BA work here have acknowledged that the concept was great, but lacking in the execution.

 

Here's my take:

I firmly believe that the Fourth World is one of the highlights of the Bronze Age and it is Kirby's only piece of work to qualify him as a first rate Bronze Age contributor. And I believe the concept of Kirby's Fourth World is what makes it such a significant piece of comic book history. I respectfully disagree with those who believe that the execution was bad. Kirby was simultaneously writing three interlocking books which were cancelled before he could get to the halfway point of his epic.It was never Kirby's intention to be any kind of solo Kirby work. It was his intention to give these books out to other writers while he moved on to try other creations. I don't see the Fourth World as a great concept/bad execution but rather as a great concept whose work was unfinished. Kirby hoped to do approximately 50 issues of each title of his epic which would have totaled around 3000 pages. The end of this comic book epic was to be a great finale. Unfortunately, Kirby was never given the opportunity to develope the ideas, character, and story he hoped to deliver to ComicBookDom. Had Kirby been given the time to complete this epic, there is no doubt that he would have developed those ideas, characters, and storyline.

 

Kirby was never attempting to do comics w/o Stan Lee but rather, he sought to do something much different, something more Kirby-like. Kirby's dialogue and plot throughout the Fourth World is a somewhat "opera-type" style. Those criticizing his style of writing don't see the point that Kirby was never interested in writing the regular dialogue of the everyday world. He didn't care about regular conversations any more than he was concerned for anatomical realism in his art. And I think this is why so many people are critical of his writing. It is in the New Gods where we see Kirby's intention to create a new mythology. We all know the story of New Genesis and Apokolips and what they represented-the neverending conflict between good and evil. There are some things in these books that are incomprehensible but again, let me stress that this is what happens in the case of an unfinished masterpiece. Sadly, Kirby never again reached this apex and the rest of his Bronze Age tenure travelled the path to obscurity.

 

 

 

However, he has not done anything to refute the specific criticisms of Kirby's work that have been raised, e.g., the poor writing and decline in art, except to keep saying that the man was a god and the Fourth World was such a great concept.

 

-See above.

 

 

 

Simpy citing Bob Overstreet as another supporter of Fourth World doesn't really cut it, it's just another person's opinion as far as I'm concerned. Does he genuinely believe the dialogue in Kirby's BA books was good? Does he think the quality of art was good? I wouldn't criticize him for saying so, he's entitled to his opinions. But I actually want to hear a real opinion of his.

 

-- I cited Overstreet because he is one of the great authorities on comic books. When it comes to knowing the American Comic Book, Bob Overstreet is not just another "opinion."

 

Please see above as to your other questions.

[rjpb]

I think you really have to divide GA Simon & Kirby into two eras. Their late forties through mid-fifties work is superior to their early 40s stuff. Check out their crime books and Fighting American. If they had been writing and illustrating DC or Timely super-hero books during this era, their AtomAge output would be more widely recognized.

[tth2]

There you go, BJ, that wasn't so hard!

 

I respect your opinions, now that you've provided some of the reasoning underlying them, although I have to admit I still disagree. But that's okay, life wouldn't be very interesting if we all looked at things the same way!

[Aman619]

But Johnny - -- it seems a bit contrived to state that the fourth World series suffers because it was cancelled too soon...... It wasnt clicking because it wasnt written well, and wasnt what we all were expecting. Kirby is Here!!! Well, this wasnt the Kirby we were waiting for. In retrospect, what we really wanted from DC was "Lee and Kirby are Here!!" THAT woudl have been DCs version of the Marvel Age of Comics.

 

It was like signing a 100 million dollar free agent expecting to win the World Series. Only to miss the playoffs.

[awe4one]

Sorry I missed this post the first time...

 

I don't see the Fourth World as a great concept/bad execution but rather as a great concept whose work was unfinished. Kirby hoped to do approximately 50 issues of each title of his epic which would have totaled around 3000 pages. The end of this comic book epic was to be a great finale.

 

Where did you get this info? I've never heard this...including anything written on Kirby by Mark Evanier who knew and worked with the man during the early 70s...

 

Jim

[shadroch]

I thought "The Hunger Dogs" was Kirbys long planned finale to the 4th World series.I never read anything about him planning on staying for fifty issues,which would have been at least ten years in the case of Forever People.