Do any other publishers do "Linewide Variant" like Valiant? 0

[Prince Namor]

DC prints their variants EXCLUSIVELY outside of Diamond's knowledge, and Diamond places an order for how many they need of a variant through them, for and when they need them. Through this program, DC still has non-incentive variants available through Diamond for books that are over a year old. As shown previously, they obviously have some incentive variants, though not-available for re-order, still around as well. The publisher's are the one's who make them available at the Retailer Summitt's and events.

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

And in my research, if you've ever wondered who actually reads these forums, let me just say: I love Marvel Comics! I love DC Comics! I love Image Comics! I love Valiant Comics! I love Diamond Distribution!

 

I don't care HOW you guys do your variants, I just want to sell as much at the retail level as I possibly can!

 

 

+1

 

Yup.

 

-J.

 

As usual, you have tried to frame the conversation around that which makes you think you're right.

 

Here's the time line of events:

In 2013 Diamond sells massive amounts of overstock incentive variants for 75 cents each.

Marvel comes under scrutiny from retailers for printing more copies than the 'incentive' states.

Marvel takes a 'hardline PR stance' that they are printing now close to the 'incentive' numbers.

In 2015 Marvel then comes under scrutiny for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants showing up as give aways at shows, as Diamond give aways to retailers, and even on sale through Diamond after the fact. (The Gwen Variants were on sale after the fact to at a Diamond Summit)

Marvel again takes a 'hardline PR stance' that they are printing now close to the 'incentive' numbers.

People who don't know any better, or WANT them to have a 'rarity' will continue to be deceived.

[Prince Namor]

And once again, let's be clear: MARVEL's PR stance is that they are printing close to the incentive amount. No one else can actually verify this, including Diamond.

 

Marvel, of course, NEEDS to have this believed, as the perception of rarity for these things is necessary to make retailers increase their orders, and for the customers to continue to buy them at a premium price, so that the cycle continues.

 

Unfortunately for them, their actions continue to show that they HAVE NOT at times followed this. And we have no idea at how many times they haven't followed it, as we have no idea how many times they actually HAVE followed it.

 

All we know FOR SURE, is that there are a couple of instances where they haven't:

2013 across the board for all variants, an overflow that they made available to Diamond to see, well after the relate date.

 

And last year with their two biggest incentive variant sellers.

 

What they did with the other incentive variants, we don't know for sure.

History shows us that if the additional Gwen month variants heat up at some point, we may see a bunch suddenly come to market.

At this point we know they won't make them available through Dimaond at 75 cents each.. that plan PR backfired.

[Jaydogrules]

DC prints their variants EXCLUSIVELY outside of Diamond's knowledge, and Diamond places an order for how many they need of a variant through them, for and when they need them. Through this program, DC still has non-incentive variants available through Diamond for books that are over a year old. As shown previously, they obviously have some incentive variants, though not-available for re-order, still around as well. The publisher's are the one's who make them available at the Retailer Summitt's and events.

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

And in my research, if you've ever wondered who actually reads these forums, let me just say: I love Marvel Comics! I love DC Comics! I love Image Comics! I love Valiant Comics! I love Diamond Distribution!

 

I don't care HOW you guys do your variants, I just want to sell as much at the retail level as I possibly can!

 

 

+1

 

Yup.

 

-J.

 

As usual, you have tried to frame the conversation around that which makes you think you're right.

 

Here's the time line of events:

In 2013 Diamond sells massive amounts of overstock incentive variants for 75 cents each.

Marvel comes under scrutiny from retailers for printing more copies than the 'incentive' states.

Marvel takes a 'hardline PR stance' that they are printing now close to the 'incentive' numbers.

In 2015 Marvel then comes under scrutiny for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants showing up as give aways at shows, as Diamond give aways to retailers, and even on sale through Diamond after the fact. (The Gwen Variants were on sale after the fact to at a Diamond Summit)

Marvel again takes a 'hardline PR stance' that they are printing now close to the 'incentive' numbers.

People who don't know any better, or WANT them to have a 'rarity' will continue to be deceived.

 

Eh you just blew it again.

 

All you did was reiterate the data that I already posted in the thread.

 

The only thing is your timeline is whacked.

 

Marvel has printed variants to the nearest case for years and this is per Diamond , and has simply been publicly verified by Marvel. But Marvel didn't just recently "figure out" how to not over print a variant after 2013. Such a suggestion is patently laughable Chuck. And so is calling the sale of 225 variants a "massive sell off" when it probably represented less than 1% of their total publication output for the time period that those variants covered.

 

But it's nice to see that you're at least starting to post some actual facts for a change instead of just your opinions and speculation disguised as facts.

 

-J.

[rjrjr]

DC prints their variants EXCLUSIVELY outside of Diamond's knowledge, and Diamond places an order for how many they need of a variant through them, for and when they need them. Through this program, DC still has non-incentive variants available through Diamond for books that are over a year old. As shown previously, they obviously have some incentive variants, though not-available for re-order, still around as well. The publisher's are the one's who make them available at the Retailer Summitt's and events.

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

And in my research, if you've ever wondered who actually reads these forums, let me just say: I love Marvel Comics! I love DC Comics! I love Image Comics! I love Valiant Comics! I love Diamond Distribution!

 

I don't care HOW you guys do your variants, I just want to sell as much at the retail level as I possibly can!

 

 

+1

 

Yup.

 

-J.

 

The number of extra Star Wars variants far exceeded a case size of 200/225, so this is a new development.

[Jaydogrules]

DC prints their variants EXCLUSIVELY outside of Diamond's knowledge, and Diamond places an order for how many they need of a variant through them, for and when they need them. Through this program, DC still has non-incentive variants available through Diamond for books that are over a year old. As shown previously, they obviously have some incentive variants, though not-available for re-order, still around as well. The publisher's are the one's who make them available at the Retailer Summitt's and events.

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

And in my research, if you've ever wondered who actually reads these forums, let me just say: I love Marvel Comics! I love DC Comics! I love Image Comics! I love Valiant Comics! I love Diamond Distribution!

 

I don't care HOW you guys do your variants, I just want to sell as much at the retail level as I possibly can!

 

 

+1

 

Yup.

 

-J.

 

The number of extra Star Wars variants far exceeded a case size of 200/225, so this is a new development.

 

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that Marvel would in fact over print a book that was as heavily anticipated and ordered like star wars.

 

-J.

[valiantman]

Which goes back to the original line of thinking, that these incentive variants are NOT a positive thing for the industry.

 

The sole PURPOSE of them, is to get retailers to INCREASE their orders. It's important to OVER state the rarity of them to get RETAILERS to up their orders, and to get the general public to BELIEVE it, so they are willing to SPEND more for them, thus creating an artificial market. Not necessarily on the actual comics, but the VARIANTS, because of a 'collectible' mentality.

 

Damaging to the true sense of the hobby, which is the READING and enjoyment of the stories and art. Very unfortunate.

 

That's not really aimed at Valiant, as I understand the need to grow - it's a tough marketplace... and many old school Valiant fans, still carry that, not saying this in a bad way, but some of that 90's rarity glee... they tout the stories though, and swear by the material and characters, i swear I'm not judging... and Valiant as a publisher has first hand, as of yesterday, showed me they have a real commitment to grow in any and all stores across the country.

Specific to Valiant, I'm gathering from this topic that other publishers do NOT do "linewide variants" (since no one has mentioned it), so it's easy to see why retailers might slap a $100 pricetag on a book that was a 1:100 to see if it sells. The linewide variants are not at the same ratio as single issue variants, but there is an order of 100 total books (linewide) that's needed to obtain a 1:100 linewide variant. That order of 100 is certainly more expensive than ordering 20 or 50 copies of a single issue. I understand the retailer side of it... I buy 100 books, I get one 1:100 variant, I'll see if I can get a good return on that 100 book investment.

 

But from the collector side, the number of copies in existence is what should drive the prices paid for a particular book when there are multiple variants available.

If a 1:20 single issue variant has fewer copies in existence than a 1:100 linewide variant for the same book... then either the 1:100 buyer is overpaying at $100, or the 1:20 buyer is getting an amazing deal near $20. Or, in the event that there's no demand for any variant of the issue... neither price is necessarily a good deal.

 

I'm not trying to dictate what the market DOES with this information, but I am trying to make sure the market HAS this information.

 

[JayT]

Agree with above about the Cooke variants. Definitely made me to a second take on a lot of books I would normally not even bother to stop on.

 

Which goes back to the original line of thinking, that these incentive variants are NOT a positive thing for the industry.

 

The sole PURPOSE of them, is to get retailers to INCREASE their orders. It's important to OVER state the rarity of them to get RETAILERS to up their orders, and to get the general public to BELIEVE it, so they are willing to SPEND more for them, thus creating an artificial market. Not necessarily on the actual comics, but the VARIANTS, because of a 'collectible' mentality.

 

Damaging to the true sense of the hobby, which is the READING and enjoyment of the stories and art. Very unfortunate.

 

That's not really aimed at Valiant, as I understand the need to grow - it's a tough marketplace... and many old school Valiant fans, still carry that, not saying this in a bad way, but some of that 90's rarity glee... they tout the stories though, and swear by the material and characters, i swear I'm not judging... and Valiant as a publisher has first hand, as of yesterday, showed me they have a real commitment to grow in any and all stores across the country.

Specific to Valiant, I'm gathering from this topic that other publishers do NOT do "linewide variants" (since no one has mentioned it), so it's easy to see why retailers might slap a $100 pricetag on a book that was a 1:100 to see if it sells. The linewide variants are not at the same ratio as single issue variants, but there is an order of 100 total books (linewide) that's needed to obtain a 1:100 linewide variant. That order of 100 is certainly more expensive than ordering 20 or 50 copies of a single issue. I understand the retailer side of it... I buy 100 books, I get one 1:100 variant, I'll see if I can get a good return on that 100 book investment.

 

But from the collector side, the number of copies in existence is what should drive the prices paid for a particular book when there are multiple variants available.

If a 1:20 single issue variant has fewer copies in existence than a 1:100 linewide variant for the same book... then either the 1:100 buyer is overpaying at $100, or the 1:20 buyer is getting an amazing deal near $20. Or, in the event that there's no demand for any variant of the issue... neither price is necessarily a good deal.

 

I'm not trying to dictate what the market DOES with this information, but I am trying to make sure the market HAS this information.

 

 

So you're saying that you think, or at least there is a possibility, that in some cases a 1:20 book may have a similar print run as a 1:100, because the former would be printed to very close to reflect the proper ratios of orders, and the latter (the 100) will be overprinted, due to being nicer/more valued giveaway (or something like that - comps, prizes, retailer meetings, con giveaways etc) books?

 

From a buyers perspective, I buy all of the VALIANT stuff digitally and tend to simply pick the cover I like the most and order that from DCBS. It's not a lack of money issue for me, I could buy them all, but I have to admit getting 4-5 covers of the same book just got tired to me. I really liked the Grampa variants and typically pick up Aja stuff. In many cases I don't think the cover merit being a variant (I know that's just a matter of opinion that has little to do with why they are produced).

[Prince Namor]

No one outside of Marvel has verifiable proof as to how many they print. FACT.

 

Diamond is simply reiterating what they've been told by Marvel to say. FACT.

 

There is nothing to PROVE Marvel prints to order, but there are some things that prove they don't.

 

At SDCC and the Retailer Summit every year they give us free copies of incentive variants from both Marvel and DC, a few from both, between 500 and 1000 copies of each to go around to the collected retailers there. If they're printing to order, where'd they come from?

 

When they gave us an order form at the Baltimore Summit this year, where we could re-order any of the Gwen Variants, where did those suddenly come from?

 

The sale of how ever many extra variants proves they aren't printed to order. There were a ton of extras. Where'd they come from Jay?

 

You have no PROOF to back up your claims.

 

I've shown you a number of situations where it is clear, they were NOT printed to order.

[valiantman]

So you're saying that you think, or at least there is a possibility, that in some cases a 1:20 book may have a similar print run as a 1:100, because the former would be printed to very close to reflect the proper ratios of orders, and the latter (the 100) will be overprinted, due to being nicer/more valued giveaway (or something like that - comps, prizes, retailer meetings, con giveaways etc) books?

No, I'm saying that a 1:20 book variant is 1:20 for that particular book...

Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1, which sold around 12,844 copies. The Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1 1:20 book should be about 645 copies.

 

The 1:100 linewide variant of Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1 is 1:100 for all Valiant books that month.

Valiant sold 70,000 books that month. The Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1 1:100 linewide book is about 700 copies.

[JayT]

So you're saying that you think, or at least there is a possibility, that in some cases a 1:20 book may have a similar print run as a 1:100, because the former would be printed to very close to reflect the proper ratios of orders, and the latter (the 100) will be overprinted, due to being nicer/more valued giveaway (or something like that - comps, prizes, retailer meetings, con giveaways etc) books?

No, I'm saying that 1:20 book is 1:20 for that book... Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1, which sold around 12,844 copies. The 1:20 book should be about 645 copies.

 

The 1:100 linewide variant of Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1 is 1:100 for all Valiant books that month. Valiant sold 70,000 books that month. The 1:100 linewide book is about 700 copies.

 

Oh, I had not idea that the 100 was not specific to the issue/title. Good info.

[valiantman]

So you're saying that you think, or at least there is a possibility, that in some cases a 1:20 book may have a similar print run as a 1:100, because the former would be printed to very close to reflect the proper ratios of orders, and the latter (the 100) will be overprinted, due to being nicer/more valued giveaway (or something like that - comps, prizes, retailer meetings, con giveaways etc) books?

No, I'm saying that 1:20 book is 1:20 for that book... Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1, which sold around 12,844 copies. The 1:20 book should be about 645 copies.

 

The 1:100 linewide variant of Dr. Mirage Second Lives #1 is 1:100 for all Valiant books that month. Valiant sold 70,000 books that month. The 1:100 linewide book is about 700 copies.

 

Oh, I had not idea that the 100 was not specific to the issue. Good info.

[rjrjr]

DC prints their variants EXCLUSIVELY outside of Diamond's knowledge, and Diamond places an order for how many they need of a variant through them, for and when they need them. Through this program, DC still has non-incentive variants available through Diamond for books that are over a year old. As shown previously, they obviously have some incentive variants, though not-available for re-order, still around as well. The publisher's are the one's who make them available at the Retailer Summitt's and events.

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

And in my research, if you've ever wondered who actually reads these forums, let me just say: I love Marvel Comics! I love DC Comics! I love Image Comics! I love Valiant Comics! I love Diamond Distribution!

 

I don't care HOW you guys do your variants, I just want to sell as much at the retail level as I possibly can!

 

 

+1

 

Yup.

 

-J.

 

The number of extra Star Wars variants far exceeded a case size of 200/225, so this is a new development.

 

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that Marvel would in fact over print a book that was as heavily anticipated and ordered like star wars.

 

-J.

 

I'm seriously confused about what you are saying. Marvel prints variants rounded up to the case size or they overprint those variants? You seem to be arguing both situations in this thread.

 

Is it possible you just don't know?

[Jaydogrules]

DC prints their variants EXCLUSIVELY outside of Diamond's knowledge, and Diamond places an order for how many they need of a variant through them, for and when they need them. Through this program, DC still has non-incentive variants available through Diamond for books that are over a year old. As shown previously, they obviously have some incentive variants, though not-available for re-order, still around as well. The publisher's are the one's who make them available at the Retailer Summitt's and events.

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

And in my research, if you've ever wondered who actually reads these forums, let me just say: I love Marvel Comics! I love DC Comics! I love Image Comics! I love Valiant Comics! I love Diamond Distribution!

 

I don't care HOW you guys do your variants, I just want to sell as much at the retail level as I possibly can!

 

 

+1

 

Yup.

 

-J.

 

The number of extra Star Wars variants far exceeded a case size of 200/225, so this is a new development.

 

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that Marvel would in fact over print a book that was as heavily anticipated and ordered like star wars.

 

-J.

 

I'm seriously confused about what you are saying. Marvel prints variants rounded up to the case size or they overprint those variants? You seem to be arguing both situations in this thread.

 

Is it possible you just don't know?

 

Hardly.

 

Marvel prints variants to the nearest case. For an "event book" or pretty much any big "#1" release one should expect Marvel to over print beyond what would be the norm for a 1:XXX variant, I.e. printing a case or two extra as a hedge against overwhelming demand.

 

We are once again using one extreme example (star wars) as a way to question how marvel in fact prints the vast, vast majority of its run of the mill incentive variants.

 

There really isn't anything confusing about it.

 

-J.

 

[Jaydogrules]

No one outside of Marvel has verifiable proof as to how many they print. FACT.

 

Diamond is simply reiterating what they've been told by Marvel to say. FACT.

 

There is nothing to PROVE Marvel prints to order, but there are some things that prove they don't.

 

At SDCC and the Retailer Summit every year they give us free copies of incentive variants from both Marvel and DC, a few from both, between 500 and 1000 copies of each to go around to the collected retailers there. If they're printing to order, where'd they come from?

 

When they gave us an order form at the Baltimore Summit this year, where we could re-order any of the Gwen Variants, where did those suddenly come from?

 

The sale of how ever many extra variants proves they aren't printed to order. There were a ton of extras. Where'd they come from Jay?

 

You have no PROOF to back up your claims.

 

I've shown you a number of situations where it is clear, they were NOT printed to order.

 

Chuck we really aren't disagreeing on the main points any further. So I'm not sure why you keep coming at me.

 

And I never said variants are printed to order. I said that Marvel prints up to the nearest case. And I have already given an example in an earlier post as to how several dozens or even up to 100 "extra copies" of a book will be printed that were not ordered and I also explained how it is very likely that those are the few books that end up in five packs or blown out in a variant sale every few years once enough of them from various titles have built up to warrant such an offering.

 

I have also explained how "event books" like star wars spider gwen and pretty much any "#1" will probably have one or two extra cases printed in anticipation of a higher than average demand. These will not be produced as a typical run of the mill variant for obvious reasons. And it would explain why those are predominately the kinds of books that have been distributed at cons.

 

But again , this is an infinitesimal , microscopic percentage of variants that even just one publisher produces in a year.

 

Where you go wrong is trying to extrapolate these intermittent examples into being "the norm", thus giving the false and ludicrous impression that ALL incentive based variants are produced without the slightest regard for how many are actually ordered and whether or not they will ever be distributed. That's where a rather large credibility gap becomes exposed.

 

-J.

 

[jreezy]

It is like groundhog day sometimes in the modern section.

 

 

[WoWitHurts]

No one outside of Marvel has verifiable proof as to how many they print. FACT.

 

Not fact. The printer clearly knows.

[fastballspecial]

 

So, the entire Valiant line is around 70,000 copies in a month. There would be 700 copies of the 1:100 linewide variant. The 1:10 single issue variant is going to be 1:10 on the 12,000 copies sold. That's 1,200 copies. The 1:20 single issue variant is going to be 1:20 on the 12,000 copies sold. That's 600 copies. The books are identical (inside) except for the different covers.

 

Where do these numbers come from?

I imagine they're estimates based on actual Comichron numbers for recent issues.

Yes, the monthly numbers come from Comichron.

The incentive ratios come from Previews.

The straight calculation is done because Dinesh said they print all the ratio books. (As opposed to seeing how many stores qualify, the ratios are printed to the full amount.)

 

Additional copies are printed for the gold logo program. Those extras are given out free at conventions or for visitors to Valiant HQ.

 

In 2012, all Valiant books had at least 1,000 copies. However, Valiant stopped printing a full 1,000 on all books soon after that... printing non-gold variants to match the incentive ratios (plus overhead for damages).

 

Did he say how many stores actually qualify?

 

I wish I could sell more Valiant, but as a small store, it just hasn't caught on (though Divinity did pretty well for me). Maybe in large markets, it does much better. It still would surprise me, if 700 stores qualify for 1:100, as that would be a little over 1/4th of the Diamond accounts...well, Mile High and Midtown and MYCS probably qualify for a couple each...

 

One thing I'lll say for Valiant, they sure put their money where their mouth is - some of their incentive/return programs have been really great - as an example, the recent Book of Death program, that based upon ordering a certain amount for your stores minimum Diamond ranking, you could get it at 80% off and full returnability. I'll do that all day long.

It didn't help sell it for ME unfortunately, but I'll always be willing to work with a publisher to TRY when they're that invested in it.

 

I suspect those variants command those prices because they are (if what Dinesh says is true), in smaller quantity than the large publishers' variants are.

 

 

DCBS is sending out free Valiant comics all the time. Book of Death #1 and Armor Hunters #1 are two books that I remember receiving as freebies last year. Neither really made me want to jump back into the Valiant titles however. Does Valiant send out extras to select retailers?

 

I get several as well and nothing has made me jump back yet. Its just boardie love. I know it hurts, but the truth does sometimes.

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Fastballspecial

[valiantman]

I get several as well and nothing has made me jump back yet. Its just boardie love. I know it hurts, but the truth does sometimes.

Nothing hurts about that. We can all see the print run numbers in Comichron.

Some people who love comics are really liking Valiant. Boardies are people who love comics.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Did we ever get a clear answer on whether other retailers do linewide variants? If they hadn't, have any started doing them since the inception of this thread?