CAPTAIN MARVEL starring Brie Larson (3/8/19) 5 5

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, TwoPiece said:

This is quite an uneducated post.

I suppose you glossed over the 'men have kept me down my whole life and only by accepting that and zapping my power-regulator can I overcome adversity and become a Super Saiyan' during the let down of a 3rd Act?

That's funny - I saw the film and at the nicotine patch / power regulator reveal, my thought was..."Damn - her enemies were keeping her powers in check."

It never once occurred to me that it was "male" enemies, let alone "men" keeping a "woman" down -- especially since there was another female member of the Star Force.

So it wasn't "just men" keeping a "woman" down -- rather, it was enemies keeping a hero down.

That you read into it all sorts of feminism that wasn't there says volumes about your bias.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Gatsby77

[theCapraAegagrus]

8 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Being her mentor, Yonn-Rogg kicks Carol's butt twice in hand to hand, first while training, and second, on Mar Vell's ship. She loses her target twice, first with So Larr the spy, then the Skrull on the train. In the mind scrubbing sequence on the Skrull ship, we see her crash her go-cart trying to go further and faster, we see her being put down by her fellow Air Force mates as she's a woman in a time when women weren't accepted in certain roles in the military. We see her awkwardness in several scenes like when she crash lands on Earth, wears a rubber suit in public, when Fury refers to her looking like "someone's disaffected niece" with the flannel. We see her fighting for the wrong side, the oppressors. Even after she powers up and goes Binary, she learns the powers as she goes. She doesn't realize she can fly until she starts falling into the canyon and has to reach inside to find that power. While flying, she gets bounced around a few times as she learns "new wings." And yes, she's pretty powerful at the end and has a decent grasp of those powers fairly quickly, but you know who you can also say that about in their origin movie? Doctor Strange. He literally defeats Dormammu while still a trainee at the Hogwarts school. And in the first Iron Man movie, Tony Stark is flying around in that Iron Man suit like he's been doing it for three movies. And poor dorky Steve Rogers turned into quite the martial artist action hero after his super soldier serum injection. Muscles are one thing, but hand to hand combat and being able to handle a flying vibranium shield with so little training? Seems like an MCU thing, doesn't it?

She doesn't overcome Yon-Rogg at the same stage. She doesn't grow as a person and overcome him. She zaps her little power-controller and then beats him with "power". That's not character growth. That's power level growth. And she doesn't earn it. It's artificially staged power growth.

Standing up from crashing a go cart is not character growth. Being harassed is not character growth. The growth that she maybe accrued happened off-screen, and that does nothing to actually show us character growth. We now have to assume, or be told, such.

She literally overcame nothing but a plot device. She didn't grow pre-"Intelligence Control", nor post-"Intelligence Control". Nothing that we were shown.

Edit: Also, you want to use Strange as a measuring stick? They tell the audience, and show us, that he has a photographic memory. He uses his astral form to study over months. Marvel also told us that he grew over the seemingly large amount of "time" he was in the Dark Dimension. We literally watch him grow from a scientist that doesn't believe s^&* into the Master of the Mystic Arts. There's a very obvious character arc to follow in that movie (a formula similar to Iron Man that they;ve regurgitated for most of their origin films).

Edited April 5, 2019 by TwoPiece

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

That's funny - I saw the film and at the nicotine patch / power regulator reveal, my thought was..."Damn - her enemies were keeping her powers in check."

It never once occurred to me that it was "male" enemies, let alone "men" keeping a "woman" down -- especially since there was another female member of the Star Force.

So it wasn't "just men" keeping a "woman" down -- rather, it was enemies keeping a hero down.

That you read into it all sorts of feminism that wasn't there says volumes about your bias.

They didn't highlight the "women keeping her down", though. In her little flashback Intelligence Control zap, it just showed some BS about her dad (or whoever) telling her she "shouldn't have been out there" (and we can only correctly assume that because the dad's motivation was keeping her in check because she's a girl and can't drive a go cart? What?) and too much other BS.

I'm out to start my Phase 1 marathon. Everyone have fun talking about this mediocre movie without me for the next day or so.

[Prince Namor]

Oh boy!

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"Girl Power is a central theme in Captain Marvel". That's called feminist elitism. 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Chuck Gower

[Prince Namor]

49 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

She doesn't overcome Yon-Rogg at the same stage. She doesn't grow as a person and overcome him. She zaps her little power-controller and then beats him with "power". That's not character growth. That's power level growth. And she doesn't earn it. It's artificially staged power growth.

Standing up from crashing a go cart is not character growth. Being harassed is not character growth. The growth that she maybe accrued happened off-screen, and that does nothing to actually show us character growth. We now have to assume, or be told, such.

She literally overcame nothing but a plot device. She didn't grow pre-"Intelligence Control", nor post-"Intelligence Control". Nothing that we were shown.

Edit: Also, you want to use Strange as a measuring stick? They tell the audience, and show us, that he has a photographic memory. He uses his astral form to study over months. Marvel also told us that he grew over the seemingly large amount of "time" he was in the Dark Dimension. We literally watch him grow from a scientist that doesn't believe s^&* into the Master of the Mystic Arts. There's a very obvious character arc to follow in that movie (a formula similar to Iron Man that they;ve regurgitated for most of their origin films).

It's funny how people can see the same thing and get two different perspectives. Very Rashomon. You may want to look that up as well to understand the reference.

As an example, all I hear when I read this post is 'I hate women'.

[Prince Namor]

56 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

They didn't highlight the "women keeping her down", though. In her little flashback Intelligence Control zap, it just showed some BS about her dad (or whoever) telling her she "shouldn't have been out there" (and we can only correctly assume that because the dad's motivation was keeping her in check because she's a girl and can't drive a go cart? What?) and too much other BS.

I'm out to start my Phase 1 marathon. Everyone have fun talking about this mediocre movie without me for the next day or so.

You're leaving? Sweet. Not necessary to come back, we got your message loud and clear:

"she has no arc other than feminist tropes that don't really have a good place in the MCU."

Meanwhile, we'll be celebrating the 37th most successful Worldwide Box Office in history as people continue to see the movie again and again.

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

7/10 seems like a good score, I would think 5/10 is mediocre 

7/10 IS a good score. He's using high school grading as he's only a few years removed from it.

High School is about memorization. If you memorize only 70% of what you're taught, that's kind of average. 

In everything else, 70% is a good score. Including movies.

[Bosco685]

Time to dust off that age-old template.

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Party 1 original comment

Party 2 'you're crazy' counter-response (add  or 'LOL' for added effect)

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Party 1 original comment

Party 2 'you're crazy' counter-response (add  or 'LOL' for added effect)

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Party 1 original comment

Party 2 'you're crazy' counter-response (add  or 'LOL' for added effect)

[Prince Namor]

Man, that was like a super-villain team-up. The woman hater and the race hater both were all fired up.

[FlyingDonut]

Again, the comicsgate people have their panties in a serious twist about this movie (and yes, I used that reference on purpose). It has made A BILLION DOLLARS. 

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

Again, the comicsgate people have their panties in a serious twist about this movie (and yes, I used that reference on purpose). It has made A BILLION DOLLARS. 

No offense to anyone here, but is that truly the case with this being a comicsgate topic, or is that assumed?

I saw Captain Marvel and went into it excited to appreciate the movie. I think is was okay, but not good or great (gave it a 7.0/10.0 but probably lean more towards a 6.0). It sure wasn't anything to do with gender, race, religion or any other changes to a lore or character design. I just didn't like the story and use of some of the characters.

 I don't keep coming back to the same thread posting 'YUP, still feel it wasn't a good movie'. Folks that do that like was done in the Man of Steel or Batman v Superman threads just seemed to want to reinforce their dislike for the film and counter positive posts.

[Gatsby77]

12 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

Again, the comicsgate people have their panties in a serious twist about this movie (and yes, I used that reference on purpose). It has made A BILLION DOLLARS. 

Hey man - don't knock Gamergate. It wasn't sexist - it was simply about "ethics in video game journalism." 

And yeah - what I love best about Captain Marvel's success thus far, is that its continued box office hold shows that it wasn't at all "front-loaded" and that members of the rank-and-file public are going back for repeat viewings.

To Bosco's point above, yeah - I get repeatedly hating on a film that's sub-par (see my incessant rants and disappointment about Suicide Squad & Venom).

The difference, however, is that I'm actually a huge fan of both of those characters -- and _hated_ the lost opportunity and mess execution of those films.

In contrast, TwoPiece has made it clear he wasn't a fan of this character from the start -- his critique *began* with Captain Marvel's being over-powered and seemingly brought in at the 11th hour to save the MCU heroes when long-time fan favorites like Cap, Iron Man, and Thor fail. Like -- How Dare they bring in a new character now.

That she was a woman only made it worse.

[FlyingDonut]

18 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

No offense to anyone here, but is that truly the case with this being a comicsgate topic, or is that assumed?

I saw Captain Marvel and went into it excited to appreciate the movie. I think is was okay, but not good or great (gave it a 7.0/10.0 but probably lean more towards a 6.0). It sure wasn't anything to do with gender, race, religion or any other changes to a lore or character design. I just didn't like the story and use of some of the characters.

 I don't keep coming back to the same thread posting 'YUP, still feel it wasn't a good movie'. Folks that do that like was done in the Man of Steel or Batman v Superman threads just seemed to want to reinforce their dislike for the film and counter positive posts.

I may be wrong, but using the term "Feminist Trope" brings out the barking dog. If you didn't like the movie because you didn't like the movie, that's fine. If you didn't like the movie because GRRLPOWER GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR that's 100% different.

[paperheart]

37 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

7/10 IS a good score. He's using high school grading as he's only a few years removed from it.

High School is about memorization. If you memorize only 70% of what you're taught, that's kind of average. 

In everything else, 70% is a good score. Including movies.

Explains the MOS comment, not many toddlers discussing Superman's role around the sandbox

[Bosco685]

Just now, FlyingDonut said:

I may be wrong, but using the term "Feminist Trope" brings out the barking dog. If you didn't like the movie because you didn't like the movie, that's fine. If you didn't like the movie because GRRLPOWER GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR that's 100% different.

Fair point.

Me, I like a strong woman that can stand up for herself. Totally okay with that. Just give her a good story to take those powers for an appropriate ride.

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, TwoPiece said:

She doesn't overcome Yon-Rogg at the same stage. She doesn't grow as a person and overcome him. She zaps her little power-controller and then beats him with "power". That's not character growth. That's power level growth. And she doesn't earn it. It's artificially staged power growth.

Standing up from crashing a go cart is not character growth. Being harassed is not character growth. The growth that she maybe accrued happened off-screen, and that does nothing to actually show us character growth. We now have to assume, or be told, such.

She literally overcame nothing but a plot device. She didn't grow pre-"Intelligence Control", nor post-"Intelligence Control". Nothing that we were shown.

Edit: Also, you want to use Strange as a measuring stick? They tell the audience, and show us, that he has a photographic memory. He uses his astral form to study over months. Marvel also told us that he grew over the seemingly large amount of "time" he was in the Dark Dimension. We literally watch him grow from a scientist that doesn't believe s^&* into the Master of the Mystic Arts. There's a very obvious character arc to follow in that movie (a formula similar to Iron Man that they;ve regurgitated for most of their origin films).

Yeah, and Carol Danvers had been using her photon blasters for six years as a Kree stealth warrior, trained to fight with the Kree's greatest warriors, and was a badass Air Force pilot before she could fly on her own. So before she powers up, she was already at an advantage, kind of like Steven Strange and his photographic memory. And is there really an arc in Steven Strange's conversion from being a skeptical d****bag to belief in the mystic arts? The Ancient One literally takes him on a one minute trip through fantasyland and he comes back from it saying "teach me." That's not much of an arc, dude. Look man, not every MCU origin movie has to be about learning your powers. Black Panther wasn't about T'Challa learning his powers as much as it was about learning to be a better ruler and changing a legacy of ruling the wrong way, a direct consequence being the abandonment of a child who was family in a strange land. Thor wasn't about learning new powers but learning the meaning of selflessness and humility. Again, when we meet Carol Danvers, she's been a Kree Star Force warrior for six years, is a master blaster, and we know she's a great pilot. Her story is by trying to stop the Skrulls, she inadvertently pieces  back together missing parts of her life, and in doing so, learns the way the universe actually works and finds this great hidden power within her. And if you don't see the character arc there, I can't help you. But I don't think you want to be helped. Btw, my reference to Carol crashing her go-cart as a kid was to show that she hasn't been this perfect human being "Mary Sue" or whatever all her life like you haters keep saying she is.

[@therealsilvermane]

41 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Fair point.

Me, I like a strong woman that can stand up for herself. Totally okay with that. Just give her a good story to take those powers for an appropriate ride.

You mean give a her "a story that you prefer," because I'll argue that the story in Captain Marvel was actually really tight, and very good. In fact, I'd say the film's narrative is among the tighter of the MCU movies. From the start, we're introduced to our three main characters, Carol Danvers, and the two elders in her life, Yonn Rogg and Talos, each who are on different sides of Carol. Then, from the point that Vers becomes a fish out of water, very early on, our story has one focus, for Carol to stop the Skrulls and find the truth of Dr Lawson before they do. Every scene in the film serves that narrative. There aren't long drawn out fight scenes in the middle act like we find in a lot of MCU films, or a return to where we once were. For instance, as great a film as Black Panther was, one could argue that the Korea sequence was a little too long. In Spiderman Homecoming, I started getting a little tired of Tony Stark constantly showing up to save Peter Parker and then scold him for being a kid. Captain Marvel's narrative, on the other hand, drives forward at a pretty fast pace with very little looking backwards. And towards the end of Carol's mystery road trip, rather than giving us the predictable outcome, the filmmakers switch it around on us, showing us that Carol's Kree outlook has been a lie. I love love love Captain Marvel. You don't have to like it, but objectively speaking, I don't think one can argue that the movie doesn't have a good story. Captain Marvel is different for sure, but the narrative is there.

Edited April 5, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

You mean give a her "a story that you prefer," because I'll argue that the story in Captain Marvel was actually really tight, and very good. In fact, I'd say the film's narrative is among the tighter of the MCU movies. From the start, we're introduced to our three main characters, Carol Danvers, and the two elders in her life, Yonn Rogg and Talos, each who are on different sides of Carol. Then, from the point that Vers becomes a fish out of water, very early on, our story has one focus, for Carol to stop the Skrulls and find the truth of Dr Lawson before they do. Everything scene in the film serves that narrative. There aren't long drawn out fight scenes in the middle act like we find in a lot of MCU films, or a return to where we once were. For instance, as great a film as Black Panther was, one could argue that the Korea sequence was a little too long. In Spiderman Homecoming, I started getting a little tired of Tony Stark showing up to save then person_without_enough_empathy out Peter Parker. Captain Marvel's narrative, on the other hand, drives forward at a pretty fast pace with very little looking backwards. And towards the end of Carol's mystery road trip, rather than giving us the predictable outcome, the filmmakers switch it around on us, showing us that Carol's Kree outlook has been a lie. I love love love Captain Marvel. You don't have to like it, but I don't think one can argue that, objectively, it isn't a good movie.

No, actually a story that drives home her journey and character growth in a much better way. And without all the modifications to lore like was done with the Skrulls. Plus like I noted earlier in this thread, Talos is a non-shape shifting Skrull leading to his evil ways to compensate for his societal imperfection leading to his moniker 'The Untamed' to convey how brutal he is.

So stating someone not calling this a 'good movie' is because they are allowing other influences is your poorly assumed opinion. There is more going on here than it being associated with a female lead or female super-powered being. So if you are implying that with your 'objective' comment, take it someplace else.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Bosco685

[@therealsilvermane]

43 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

So stating someone not calling this a 'good movie' is because they are allowing other influences is your poorly assumed opinion. There is more going on here than it being associated with a female lead or female super-powered being. So if you are implying that with your 'objective' comment, take it someplace else.

In no way am I implying that your opinion of Captain Marvel is informed by its female elements, already had that back and forth with TwoPiece. What I mean is I firmly disagree with anyone saying Captain Marvel, for any variety of reasons, is not a good movie. One doesn't have to like it, perhaps they would have liked a different set of events, or didn't like how the characters turned out, or whatever. I'm saying, comic lore and expectations aside, Captain Marvel was a very tight three act structured mystery road trip movie with an interesting twist on our expectations. There weren't any wasted scenes, and the movie had a strong emotional core as Carol Danvers, in her mystery trip, discovers her lost best friend. If I were teaching a film class on writing, I think you could use this film as an example of good tight storytelling. And it also had a cat, or rather a flerken. Btw, I'd argue that the movie was actually somewhat faithful to the comic book Skrulls. Ever since John Byrne had Galactus destroy their Homeworld years ago, they've been shown in a more sympathetic light except for Secret Invasion, of course. But even Super Skrull is a hero now. Plus, I'd say it's a little boring to keep seeing the lizard-like Skrulls as the main baddies. It just adds to that unfortunate symptom of our society of easily demonizing those that aren't like us. I think the Kree, with their superiority complex, make better bad guys, though I have a feeling Marvel Studios has bigger things in store. After all, Kree are people, too.

Edited April 5, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

In no way am I implying that your opinion of Captain Marvel is informed by its female elements, already had that back and forth with TwoPiece. What I mean is I firmly disagree with anyone saying Captain Marvel, for any variety of reasons, is not a good movie. One doesn't have to like it, perhaps they would have liked a different set of events, didn't like the characters turned out, whatever. I'm saying, comic lore and expectations aside, Captain Marvel was a very tight three act structured mystery road trip movie with an interesting twist on our expectations. There weren't any wasted scenes, and the movie had a strong emotional core as Carol Danvers, in her mystery trip, discovers her lost best friend. And it had a cat. Btw, I'd argue that the movie was actually somewhat faithful to the comic book Skrulls. Ever since John Byrne had Galactus destroy their Homeworld years ago, they've been shown in a more sympathetic light except for Secret Invasion, of course. But even Super Skrull is a hero now.

I'm glad Goose brought you joy. 

I disagree. I felt like cheap scenes like how Nick Fury lost his eye were forced into the story and detracted from a great BETTER tale to be told. Like from the Ultimates line Nick Fury losing that eye in a Kuwait battle which fits in well with the original Nick Fury design. Not a silly alien cat scratch leading to his eye being lost. With this more weak approach, it pulled me out of the flow of the story to wonder 'why waste such a strong scene that could have occurred'.

I'm glad you have more of a positive take on this film. Enjoy that. Meanwhile, you are ignoring the detractors throughout that I just have not made it a point to keep stating like some may. I think that can tip towards the negative too easy. But to respond to your argument this is a solidly good film, I shared my experience and concerns.