Why public grading notes are a bad idea...for now.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So, there has been a lot of discussion about grading notes being made available to the public, and even being put on the back labels of books.

 

This sounds like a good idea, at least at first, because, hey, more transparency is a good thing. And I agree, making good quality notes available to the public would be a great step forward in the process.

 

However...if you're familiar with the notes systems used by both CGC and the other company, you'll quickly see why this isn't a good idea, until and unless better notes are incorporated.

 

The biggest problems with notes are threefold:

 

1. The notes are almost entirely, if not entirely, qualitative, that is, using mostly adjectives like "lite", or "very", or "slight", or "small", or "large", which are abstract descriptors that mean different things to different people, and not very quantitative, that is, using actual standardized measurements and definitions to give a clear idea about exactly how a particular flaw affects the book. Is that "small bend

 

Also, it doesn't appear that grading terms have been standardized either, with "crease", "fold", and "bend" being used interchangeably, for example, which doesn't indicate whether that flaw is entirely non-color breaking AND non-fiber breaking, just non-color breaking, or breaks color to some degree (even though CGC does include "breaks color" on a regular basis.)

 

(As a personal note, "lite" should not be used, as its main connotation is towards food products. Personal quibble, to be sure.)

 

These notes, then, are too vague to be of much value if the book is not itself in hand to compare and interpret the notes. This could lead to a potential buyer considering the book might be overgraded OR undergraded, which defeats the purpose of the notes.

 

If the note said, however, "appr. 1/4" cb crease, BRC", or "appr. 1/2 dia circle stain center back cover" I think that would give a customer a very clear idea...buying or selling...what they can expect with the book.

 

2. The notes often reflect the person doing them and their particular perspective about what is (and is not) noteworthy, rather than what is keeping a book in a particular grade. For example, if a Silver Age book is a 9.4, and the main (sole?) reason is a color breaking spine tic near the bottom of the spine, the notes should say that....and not just say, for example, "butterfly flared corner" (see #1) These notes don't capture the essence of the book's condition, and so may give a buyer a faulty view of the book's real flaws.

 

3. There aren't any notes at all for many books. I deal in 1975-2000 Coppers and Moderns for the most part, and most of those are 9.8. Frequently, however, I'll get a 9.6...or even (horrors!) a 9.4...but there are no notes. I don't know what CGC saw that I didn't, but I would like to know that, so A. I can avoid that flaw in the future if I thought it wasn't a grade altering defect (like waviness on certain books, like 1991 Marvels, for example, or printer's creases, which counted, then didn't count, and now seem to count again), and/or B. I can ask for a review if a grader saw something...an artifact of the art, for example...that looks like a flaw, but isn't, so I can get these books in review BEFORE they're sent back to me, and I have to incur the costs of shipping back and forth again and/or C. to know if I just missed something (hey, it happens, even to OCDs like me. )

 

Now, granted, #3 doesn't pertain to public notes in general, but #1 and #2 DO, and have an immediate impact on how a book might be viewed by anyone, myself included, who may wish to purchase a book. In fact, if a customer were to see notes that were 1. too vague, and 2. didn't capture the essence of the book's condition, it would be more trouble than they're worth, unfortunately.

[greggy]

 

So, there has been a lot of discussion about grading notes being made available to the public, and even being put on the back labels of books.

 

This sounds like a good idea, at least at first, because, hey, more transparency is a good thing. And I agree, making good quality notes available to the public would be a great step forward in the process.

 

However...if you're familiar with the notes systems used by both CGC and the other company, you'll quickly see why this isn't a good idea, until and unless better notes are incorporated.

 

The biggest problems with notes are threefold:

 

1. The notes are almost entirely, if not entirely, qualitative, that is, using mostly adjectives like "lite", or "very", or "slight", or "small", or "large", which are abstract descriptors that mean different things to different people, and not very quantitative, that is, using actual standardized measurements and definitions to give a clear idea about exactly how a particular flaw affects the book. Is that "small bend

 

Also, it doesn't appear that grading terms have been standardized either, with "crease", "fold", and "bend" being used interchangeably, for example, which doesn't indicate whether that flaw is entirely non-color breaking AND non-fiber breaking, just non-color breaking, or breaks color to some degree (even though CGC does include "breaks color" on a regular basis.)

 

(As a personal note, "lite" should not be used, as its main connotation is towards food products. Personal quibble, to be sure.)

 

These notes, then, are too vague to be of much value if the book is not itself in hand to compare and interpret the notes. This could lead to a potential buyer considering the book might be overgraded OR undergraded, which defeats the purpose of the notes.

 

If the note said, however, "appr. 1/4" cb crease, BRC", or "appr. 1/2 dia circle stain center back cover" I think that would give a customer a very clear idea...buying or selling...what they can expect with the book.

 

2. The notes often reflect the person doing them and their particular perspective about what is (and is not) noteworthy, rather than what is keeping a book in a particular grade. For example, if a Silver Age book is a 9.4, and the main (sole?) reason is a color breaking spine tic near the bottom of the spine, the notes should say that....and not just say, for example, "butterfly flared corner" (see #1) These notes don't capture the essence of the book's condition, and so may give a buyer a faulty view of the book's real flaws.

 

3. There aren't any notes at all for many books. I deal in 1975-2000 Coppers and Moderns for the most part, and most of those are 9.8. Frequently, however, I'll get a 9.6...or even (horrors!) a 9.4...but there are no notes. I don't know what CGC saw that I didn't, but I would like to know that, so A. I can avoid that flaw in the future if I thought it wasn't a grade altering defect (like waviness on certain books, like 1991 Marvels, for example, or printer's creases, which counted, then didn't count, and now seem to count again), and/or B. I can ask for a review if a grader saw something...an artifact of the art, for example...that looks like a flaw, but isn't, so I can get these books in review BEFORE they're sent back to me, and I have to incur the costs of shipping back and forth again and/or C. to know if I just missed something (hey, it happens, even to OCDs like me. )

 

Now, granted, #3 doesn't pertain to public notes in general, but #1 and #2 DO, and have an immediate impact on how a book might be viewed by anyone, myself included, who may wish to purchase a book. In fact, if a customer were to see notes that were 1. too vague, and 2. didn't capture the essence of the book's condition, it would be more trouble than they're worth, unfortunately.

 

[bababooey]

[BlowUpTheMoon]

 

 

tl; dr

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

"Don't worry, RMA, someone will be along to take your post seriously any minute now...."

 

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

 

"Don't worry, RMA, someone will be along to take your post seriously any minute now...."

 

 

 

Here's one.

 

Is it?

 

Public Grading Notes

 

Graders Notes

 

Grader's Notes

 

Graders' Notes

 

or

 

Grader Notes

 

We may need a poll.

 

 

 

 

[Jeffro.]

This is not a spoiler

[ygogolak]

#3 is the one that I think needs remedied as well.

[bababooey]

#3 is the one that I think needs remedied as well.

 

 

Now, granted, #3 doesn't pertain to public notes in general, but #1 and #2 DO

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Merrrrp! Hoisted by my own pee-turd.

[KPR Comics]

[MusterMark]

Merrrrp! Hoisted by my own pee-turd.

 

 

 

Don't show that I'm hiding this.

 

Oh, wait, no. I meant:

Don't hide that I'm showing this.

 

 

 

[ttfitz]

 

"Don't worry, RMA, someone will be along to take your post seriously any minute now...."

 

 

I think you bring up some valid points - although your subject line is off-point. The problem isn't with public grading notes, it's poor quality notes. Whether they are public or not, the notes should reflect more of the kind of thing that you mention, particularly group 3, imo. What good are notes if they don't tell you why a book got a particular grade?

[COI]

Good points about why the notes aren't very useful, but vague/qualitative info is still better than no info at all. So the notes definitely need improvement, but they aren't a bad idea.

[Mark 1]

There's nothing wrong with having them accessible online. No need for it to be on the label.

 

If the notes were only free....that's the real discussion.

[Kenners]

There's nothing wrong with having them accessible online. No need for it to be on the label.

 

If the notes were only free....that's the real discussion.

 

 

Agreed.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

"Don't worry, RMA, someone will be along to take your post seriously any minute now...."

 

 

I think you bring up some valid points - although your subject line is off-point. The problem isn't with public grading notes, it's poor quality notes. Whether they are public or not, the notes should reflect more of the kind of thing that you mention, particularly group 3, imo. What good are notes if they don't tell you why a book got a particular grade?

 

 

No, I think the subject line is pretty much spot on. It doesn't say "public notes are a bad idea"....it says "public notes are a bad idea....FOR NOW", and then the post explains why that is, which is poor quality notes.

 

That was the entire thesis of the thread.

 

[seanfingh]

Good points about why the notes aren't very useful, but vague/qualitative info is still better than no info at all. So the notes definitely need improvement, but they aren't a bad idea.

 

The real issue is that pressing clients see vague things like "slight bend upper left" and then they blitch to their pressers about "why didn't you get that slight bend out?"

 

Then the presser has to backpedal and say "hey, I did get it out." Then he (or she) shakes his fist at the sky and says "Darn you, CGC! Your public notes are making my clients think I suck at pressing when really I am AWESOME."

[VintageComics]

 

"Don't worry, RMA, someone will be along to take your post seriously any minute now...."

 

 

I think you bring up some valid points - although your subject line is off-point. The problem isn't with public grading notes, it's poor quality notes. Whether they are public or not, the notes should reflect more of the kind of thing that you mention, particularly group 3, imo. What good are notes if they don't tell you why a book got a particular grade?

 

The point is that the notes were never meant for public consumption. They were initially only meant to be used for internal purposes, as books passed from one grader to the next.

 

After CGC had opened it's doors, they then came to be shared with customers only to help justify the CGC grade their books were given as customers called in to complain about why their books were hammered.

 

That evolved into customers calling in for their grading notes on many books, which in turn tied up graders for hours on end.

 

The decision to put notes online and charge for them happened about 3 years ago after much pressure to make notes available to the general public AND to keep graders from being tied up.

 

They actually should have a disclaimer so that the general public recognizes them for what they are. An aid and not definitive or all-inclusive?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good points about why the notes aren't very useful, but vague/qualitative info is still better than no info at all. So the notes definitely need improvement, but they aren't a bad idea.

 

 

I disagree. Poor notes that create more confusion than no notes would aren't better than no notes at all.

 

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." - Alexander Pope