900K reserve not met on Frazetta painting.

[pemart1966]

Does the seller just call up Heritage to institute a reserve of X dollars on a whim? Then Heritage adds an asterix and raises the bidding to the new reserve price because a seller got cold feet all of a sudden?

 

No, the setting of a reserve, and amount, is something that would have to be agreed at the outset with Heritage, and would be addressed in the T&Cs of the contract between consigner and Heritage.

 

Just think about it, do you really think Heritage would be willing to do all the work to promote a piece and then allow the consigner to effectively make it unsellable on a whim at the last second? Remember that they don't get paid if the piece doesn't sell.

They get paid if the piece doesn't sell. It's part of the conditions of setting a reserve. From their TOS. "A “Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE WRITTEN ”Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE “Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS." (Caps lock is their writing, not mine, I promise I am not yelling ). I have to find my paperwork (I'm not at home) but I was told there was a cut off date to set a reserve if I chose to (I think it was a month before auction) and that if I did set a reserve I was responsible for (I think) 5% of the reserve price if the item did not sell. If it sold I was responsible for 10% of the hammer price (plus the 19.5% BP).

 

I should add, I am sure in the case of these mega pieces, I would not be surprised if they negotiated a reserve that the seller does not have to pay for if it does not meet the reserve.

 

Those numbers are not the numbers I have but I might be looking in the wrong place. Additionally, and I quote:

 

"You will be charged the applicable Buyer's Premium on the full amount, but not the Seller's Commission, on any lot that fails to meet your Reserve."

[tth2]

Frazetta babe + multiple Frazetta monsters + "tighter" technique with more fleshed out backgrounds = no contest.

My god, you sound like the English professor in "Dead Poets Society" who tried to reduce quality of writing to some mathematical formula.

 

It doesn`t work that way, and I encourage everyone to make like Robin Williams and throw out your analysis.

 

[delekkerste]

Frazetta babe + multiple Frazetta monsters + "tighter" technique with more fleshed out backgrounds = no contest.

My god, you sound like the English professor in "Dead Poets Society" who tried to reduce quality of writing to some mathematical formula.

 

It doesn`t work that way, and I encourage everyone to make like Robin Williams and throw out your analysis.

 

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. Like it or not, the market values tighter painting and fleshed out backgrounds more than looser paintings and minimal backgrounds. Frazetta babes and iconic subjects (e.g., Conan, Death Dealer) are likewise more valued by the market. Any comparison to J. Evans Pritchard (whose scale had nothing to say about market value) is just

 

There's a reason the Frazetta offspring who owns At the Earth's Core priced it at more than double the price of The Norseman when shopping it - that person knows better than you do what the market values in their father's work.

[Solar]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

[stinkininkin]

Values aside (because these types of numbers are just abstractions for me in real terms--never have been and never will be a player at these prices), I think ATEC is a top 10 Frazetta. Would I rather have Egyptian Queen for example? Sure, but ATEC is the type of piece I never really thought would be available publicly or privately when I was growing up revering this works. It really has everything a Frazetta fan and consumer would want, and is executed flawlessly. It's even larger than many Frazetta originals. Someone else mentioned the Spiderman piece, which I also love. Pure power, savagely and simplicity. It's not good, it's GREAT. But I'd still take ATEC all day and every day....values aside.

 

Scott

[buyatari]

This is so strange to me. If reserves aren't hidden then why wait several days to expose them? How exactly does a reserve with Heritage work?

 

Does the seller just call up Heritage to institute a reserve of X dollars on a whim? Then Heritage adds an asterix and raises the bidding to the new reserve price because a seller got cold feet all of a sudden?

 

 

Hey Adam.

 

So The seller sets reserve. A couple days before the auction, if the reserve hasn't been met, it gets bumped up to one bid below reserve and shown with an asterix

 

Comic link is somewhat similar, shows the asterix as well

 

Why not just start bidding at 900k then? Seems like a silly game to me.

 

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

There have to be others. I've always enjoyed the work of N.C. Wyeth. Are his pieces more affordable than your average Frazetta?

 

 

[jaybuck43]

Does the seller just call up Heritage to institute a reserve of X dollars on a whim? Then Heritage adds an asterix and raises the bidding to the new reserve price because a seller got cold feet all of a sudden?

 

No, the setting of a reserve, and amount, is something that would have to be agreed at the outset with Heritage, and would be addressed in the T&Cs of the contract between consigner and Heritage.

 

Just think about it, do you really think Heritage would be willing to do all the work to promote a piece and then allow the consigner to effectively make it unsellable on a whim at the last second? Remember that they don't get paid if the piece doesn't sell.

They get paid if the piece doesn't sell. It's part of the conditions of setting a reserve. From their TOS. "A “Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE WRITTEN ”Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE “Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS." (Caps lock is their writing, not mine, I promise I am not yelling ). I have to find my paperwork (I'm not at home) but I was told there was a cut off date to set a reserve if I chose to (I think it was a month before auction) and that if I did set a reserve I was responsible for (I think) 5% of the reserve price if the item did not sell. If it sold I was responsible for 10% of the hammer price (plus the 19.5% BP).

 

I should add, I am sure in the case of these mega pieces, I would not be surprised if they negotiated a reserve that the seller does not have to pay for if it does not meet the reserve.

 

Those numbers are not the numbers I have but I might be looking in the wrong place. Additionally, and I quote:

 

"You will be charged the applicable Buyer's Premium on the full amount, but not the Seller's Commission, on any lot that fails to meet your Reserve."

 

Was going from memory. I think you are absolutely right, it's the other way around. My screwup!

[jaybuck43]

Frazetta babe + multiple Frazetta monsters + "tighter" technique with more fleshed out backgrounds = no contest.

My god, you sound like the English professor in "Dead Poets Society" who tried to reduce quality of writing to some mathematical formula.

 

It doesn`t work that way, and I encourage everyone to make like Robin Williams and throw out your analysis.

 

Gene's analysis also fails to account for a key variable in the other pieces.

 

[delekkerste]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest in this material from the younger generations.

[spider9698]

ATEC is spectacular. Has a central female figure, monsters and beasts and is large with great detail.

 

Norseman is very nice but as previously discussed on the boards, central hero has his back towards the audience. Also not as recognizable as ATEC.

 

Top tier are Conan, Death Dealer, Egyptian Queen, Silver Warrior, etc.

 

This is as close to top tier as you can get.

 

 

[Solar]

 

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

There have to be others. I've always enjoyed the work of N.C. Wyeth. Are his pieces more affordable than your average Frazetta?

 

 

N.C. is one of my personal favorites. His desirable work is in the $200-400K range for the most part. The cover illustration to Robinson Caruso sold for $700K in '09 at Christies and the $1mm example is 48x60" and absolutely stunning.

 

I can see Frazetta's work being priced equally with N.C.'s, even though the latter's is more accessible - FF has more living fans and hasn't fully transitioned from pop culture to art history yet.

 

That doesn't seem to be the case though, from the prices quoted in this thread.

[Bronty]

Well Ferzoco would probably be in the best position of any of us to say and he says it will sell so I'll assume it gets one bid.

 

Perhaps this is all pre negotiated with a known buyer at a specific price with the family choosing to run it through heritage to create the public data point and heritage doing it for anything from the free publicity to who knows what.

 

I'm not saying these sales are gamed but I'd wager there's more to the story.

[delekkerste]

ATEC is spectacular. Has a central female figure, monsters and beasts and is large with great detail.

 

Exactly - it has everything you would want in a GREAT Frazetta example. The other paintings mentioned are nice, but are nowhere close to being in the same league. Those are the Frazettas you get when you'd be content with a "nice example", whereas ATEC is the one you buy when you want one of the very best. And, there's nothing wrong with that - that's how a market functions, with different prices determining where different people are going to say "that's good enough for me".

[Bronty]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

Younger generations are interested in the fantasy pieces that meant something to them not their dads - see mtg thread for five figure sales for tiny fantasy paintings that are not old?

[Bronty]

ATEC is spectacular. Has a central female figure, monsters and beasts and is large with great detail.

 

Exactly - it has everything you would want in a GREAT Frazetta example. The other paintings mentioned are nice, but are nowhere close to being in the same league. Those are the Frazettas you get when you'd be content with a "nice example", whereas ATEC is the one you buy when you want one of the very best. And, there's nothing wrong with that - that's how a market functions, with different prices determining where different people are going to say "that's good enough for me".

 

Hey you guys may all be right but to me it's all fluff because if it sells its to precisely one buyer. To use Mitch's phrasing this is more of a gallery sale masquerading as an auction and it's totally dependent on what the one guy who wants to write the check likes.

[spider9698]

Well Ferzoco would probably be in the best position of any of us to say and he says it will sell so I'll assume it gets one bid.

 

Perhaps this is all pre negotiated with a known buyer at a specific price with the family choosing to run it through heritage to create the public data point and heritage doing it for anything from the free publicity to who knows what.

 

I'm not saying these sales are gamed but I'd wager there's more to the story.

 

I appreciate the vote of confidence in my ability to predict the future but it really is just a prediction. Not privy to any backstory on the piece. The public auction market has not seen a painting of this caliber come to sale and I feel that there has to be a deep pocketed collector out there who thinks this would be a great Frazetta example to hang on his/her wall.

 

[delekkerste]

Younger generations are interested in the fantasy pieces that meant something to them not their dads - see mtg thread for five figure sales for tiny fantasy paintings that are not old?

 

True, but, as with Frazettas (also at record highs in terms of OA prices, but not underlying popularity), I suspect it's a pretty small niche of buyers for those paintings. And, as with Frazettas, what happens when the next generation takes over (granted, the runway for MTG is probably longer than it is for the aging Frazetta fan base)?

 

In any case, I don't think that underlying cultural or demographic trends are going to be very supportive of Frazetta (and fantasy art in general) in the future is the bottom line. Most (not all, but most) people I talk to about Frazetta tend to agree with that observation.

 

That said, if you love it and are comfortable with laying out the $$$, by all means, buy it. I buy lots of art that I love personally (largely for nostalgic reasons) but which will almost certainly not be appreciated to the same or greater extent by future generations. But, that's not why I buy the art - I buy it because I like looking at it and owning it, and because it is meaningful to me personally. If future generations don't appreciate it as much as I did, it may be my financial loss, but it's their loss for not being able to enjoy and appreciate it like I did.

[comix4fun]

This is so strange to me. If reserves aren't hidden then why wait several days to expose them? How exactly does a reserve with Heritage work?

 

Does the seller just call up Heritage to institute a reserve of X dollars on a whim? Then Heritage adds an asterix and raises the bidding to the new reserve price because a seller got cold feet all of a sudden?

 

 

Hey Adam.

 

So The seller sets reserve. A couple days before the auction, if the reserve hasn't been met, it gets bumped up to one bid below reserve and shown with an asterix

 

Comic link is somewhat similar, shows the asterix as well

 

Why not just start bidding at 900k then? Seems like a silly game to me.

 

 

 

 

It's not a game. It's allowing the piece to proceed, on an even footing, with all the other pieces in the auction regardless of reserve or the absence of reserve.

 

There's a negative connotation to reserves in an auction setting. Bidder psychology prevents them from become invested in a piece that begins at too high a number or with a reserve made known but not revealed.

 

To avoid pieces from progressing with a negative stigma because of a reserve, they allow all pieces to be bid on as if there were no reserves. Bidders become invested, begin to fantasize about ownership, begin to feel the auction competitive juices begin to flow, begin to consider ownership of a piece that they may have completely put out of their mind had the bidding started at reserve...or at FMV.

 

Then, by revealing the reserve, they do bidders the service of letting them know what the minimum number will be to take it home. They've given the sellers the full measure of promotion, visibility and attention for their piece and provided the potential buyers all the information they need in order to take the piece home and not waste time or resources on live auction day (not bidding on pieces that precede the reserve piece for example).

 

 

[Mmehdy]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

[comix4fun]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum on?

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?