Mrs Muggins-migration Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 What are they "variants" of? They were all printed that way for the foreign market they were distributed in. Silly. -J. Variants of the cents priced versions ? But I don't think we're going to agree on that, which is fine. I always say, friends should be able to disagree with each other and still be friendly. -J. Hello all. Mind if I join this debate? I don't like "UK Edition" as I think that term better suits UK reprint titles such as Spider-Man Comics Weekly, or Mighty World of Marvel. To clearly identify that a comic is a first printing US produced original with a Pence price then the word "variant" needs to be used. So the logical term, given that the key variance is the price, would be "Pence Price Variant" in my opinion. I think CGC have got it wrong. "UK Edition" is a loose term. "Pence Price Variant" is a clear, factually accurate term. The same follows for "Canadian Dollar Price Variant" and "Australian Dollar Price Variant". These are the terms I use and promote when and wherever I can. I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. The key variance, as I said, is the price. Additional indicia distribution data and amended cover headers are incidental. CGC have indeed got it wrong, but I hope they will one day see the light Jaydog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SECollector Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 May I just ask why is this so important for you? The UK books are what they are and everyone who is interested in them knows the story. So, why make such a big deal about what CGC calls them? This is a genuine question. Is it because the word "variant" would assume higher significance because of their relative scarcity compared with the "regular" issues whereas "UK Edition" makes them seem less "important"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Muggins-migration Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 May I just ask why is this so important for you? The UK books are what they are and everyone who is interested in them knows the story. So, why make such a big deal about what CGC calls them? This is a genuine question. Is it because the word "variant" would assume higher significance because of their relative scarcity compared with the "regular" issues whereas "UK Edition" makes them seem less "important"? Hello SECollector. You may ask, yes. In truth, it's only important to me in context. I just fancied a bit of good natured sparring with Jaydog if the truth be told on a subject that interests me. I stand by my views on terminology, but I'm not really that fussed if others - including CGC - have a different view. I don't think "variant" carries any greater significance as a term either. Looking back over the post, Jaydog has argued his case over and over. To balance the books, will you be asking him why his view is so important to him? I'm new to this but I think the emoticon I'm supposed to now use is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 May I just ask why is this so important for you? The UK books are what they are and everyone who is interested in them knows the story. So, why make such a big deal about what CGC calls them? This is a genuine question. Is it because the word "variant" would assume higher significance because of their relative scarcity compared with the "regular" issues whereas "UK Edition" makes them seem less "important"? That is exactly the case, the word "variant" is only to be used to describe more desirable versions by the rare modern variant hunter folk. They also don't want the word "variant" used when it comes a blank modern cover....well, just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwanUK Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 May I just ask why is this so important for you? The UK books are what they are and everyone who is interested in them knows the story. So, why make such a big deal about what CGC calls them? This is a genuine question. Is it because the word "variant" would assume higher significance because of their relative scarcity compared with the "regular" issues whereas "UK Edition" makes them seem less "important"? In the overall scheme of my life & loves, it's not important at all ! However, in the context of the comic hobby which I love and spend many hours researching etc I do feel that many of us are trying to right a historical wrong - in that for many years comics with pence prices were considered "reprints" and somehow inferior - the actual truth, is that they are first prints too (same American presses, same time) and ironically, almost certainly much, much rarer than their American counterparts (silver and early bronze at least) There is no campaign to make the hobby think they're better than cents or worth more than cents, simply to say "this is the reality" - then people can be better informed, and the market will repond accordingly (and has done) Pence keys in high grade are seriously rare - I only wish I'd bought more even 5 years ago, never mind back in the 80s when you could get a pence AF 15 for £200 (!) While factually and logically, they are PENCE PRICE VARIANTS, CGC calling them "UK Editions" is not a big deal. But it is inaccurate. (Graded UK only original-material comics like Cap Britain and Marvelman are also called "UK Editions", which adds to the inconsistency) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Muggins-migration Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 May I just ask why is this so important for you? The UK books are what they are and everyone who is interested in them knows the story. So, why make such a big deal about what CGC calls them? This is a genuine question. Is it because the word "variant" would assume higher significance because of their relative scarcity compared with the "regular" issues whereas "UK Edition" makes them seem less "important"? In the overall scheme of my life & loves, it's not important at all ! However, in the context of the comic hobby which I love and spend many hours researching etc I do feel that many of us are trying to right a historical wrong - in that for many years comics with pence prices were considered "reprints" and somehow inferior - the actual truth, is that they are first prints too (same American presses, same time) and ironically, almost certainly much, much rarer than their American counterparts (silver and early bronze at least) There is no campaign to make the hobby think they're better than cents or worth more than cents, simply to say "this is the reality" - then people can be better informed, and the market will repond accordingly (and has done) Pence keys in high grade are seriously rare - I only wish I'd bought more even 5 years ago, never mind back in the 80s when you could get a pence AF 15 for £200 (!) While factually and logically, they are PENCE PRICE VARIANTS, CGC calling them "UK Editions" is not a big deal. But it is inaccurate. (Graded UK only original-material comics like Cap Britain and Marvelman are also called "UK Editions", which adds to the inconsistency) Exactly. I like this man EwanUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin.J Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 May I just ask why is this so important for you? The UK books are what they are and everyone who is interested in them knows the story. So, why make such a big deal about what CGC calls them? This is a genuine question. Is it because the word "variant" would assume higher significance because of their relative scarcity compared with the "regular" issues whereas "UK Edition" makes them seem less "important"? In the overall scheme of my life & loves, it's not important at all ! However, in the context of the comic hobby which I love and spend many hours researching etc I do feel that many of us are trying to right a historical wrong - in that for many years comics with pence prices were considered "reprints" and somehow inferior - the actual truth, is that they are first prints too (same American presses, same time) and ironically, almost certainly much, much rarer than their American counterparts (silver and early bronze at least) There is no campaign to make the hobby think they're better than cents or worth more than cents, simply to say "this is the reality" - then people can be better informed, and the market will repond accordingly (and has done) Pence keys in high grade are seriously rare - I only wish I'd bought more even 5 years ago, never mind back in the 80s when you could get a pence AF 15 for £200 (!) While factually and logically, they are PENCE PRICE VARIANTS, CGC calling them "UK Editions" is not a big deal. But it is inaccurate. (Graded UK only original-material comics like Cap Britain and Marvelman are also called "UK Editions", which adds to the inconsistency) Exactly. I like this man EwanUK Ewan always says it perfectly and exactly as it appears in my head, I just cant get it down on paper the way he does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SECollector Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Point(s) taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mio Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Who really cares how they are branded or named in the marketplace. The important features are that the US and UK copies were made at the same time on the same machines with immatetial differences in price tag and date on the cover, with the UK copies being circa 20 times rarer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGGIEZ Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... I may need to break out my Strange Tales #110 Pence and Strange Tales #110 US tonight a take some side-by-side pics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldust40 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... There's the price variation and removal of the date. And at the bottom of the indicia it states "distributed in the U.K. by Thorpe And Porter". And that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... I may need to break out my Strange Tales #110 Pence and Strange Tales #110 US tonight a take some side-by-side pics... The interiors are identical. There are up to a few minor changes - which vary over the many years variants were produced for the market - to the cover, all of which still add up to being far, far less of a change than having completely different cover art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadzukes Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) Just for fun here's a different way to look at it.... Approx 99.71% of a Pence copy is indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Here's my math: -An average Marvel early 60s comic is approx 6.75" x 10.25". -The surface area of each page is approx 69 square inches. -Including the covers there are 20 printed pages, so the total surface area of the comic is approx 1380 square inches. On a pence comic the 3 different areas of the comic are the indicia, the price circle, and the date area. I will be generous and say those areas constitute an area of 4 square inches. (I'm measuring the full indicia..... the actual pence indicia difference is much less) So 1376 of 1380 square inches of the comic are indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Put that as a percentage and it comes out to 99.71% . Add to this the fact that they were printed at the same time using the same paper and inks as Cent copies (but printed at much lower percentage) and I think you have an attractive variant to collect. Edited January 19, 2017 by gadzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Muggins-migration Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... There's the price variation and removal of the date. And at the bottom of the indicia it states "distributed in the U.K. by Thorpe And Porter". And that's it. ....or L Miller, depending on the title. Early Pence copies have the price in Pence (obviously!), the cover date removed and an additional line at the foot of the indicia as above (Thorpe & Porter or L Miller). Then the cover date stopped being removed. Then the additional indicia line ceased. Then the cover headings changed to "Marvel All-Colour Comics" so as not to clash with B&W British reprints. Then the final run of 20p Pence copies had just the cover price difference. So a few incidental changes throughout the history, but with the one overriding constant, the cover price. Hence "UK Pence Price Variants" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Muggins-migration Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Just for fun here's a different way to look at it.... Approx 99.71% of a Pence copy in indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Here's my math: -An average Marvel early 60s comic is approx 6.75" x 10.25". -The surface area of each page is approx 69 square inches. -Including the covers there are 20 printed pages, so the total surface area of the comic is approx 1380 square inches. On a pence comic the 3 different areas of the comic are the indicia, the price circle, and the date area. I will be generous and say those areas constitute an area of 4 square inches. (I'm measuring the full indicia..... the actual pence indicia difference is much less) So 1376 of 1380 square inches of the comic are indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Put that as a percentage and it comes out to 99.71% . Add to this the fact that they were printed at the same time using the same paper and inks as Cent copies (but printed at much lower percentage) and I think you have an attractive variant to collect. I like this person Gadzukes thinking. We need more of this kind of analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadzukes Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 Just for fun here's a different way to look at it.... Approx 99.71% of a Pence copy in indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Here's my math: -An average Marvel early 60s comic is approx 6.75" x 10.25". -The surface area of each page is approx 69 square inches. -Including the covers there are 20 printed pages, so the total surface area of the comic is approx 1380 square inches. On a pence comic the 3 different areas of the comic are the indicia, the price circle, and the date area. I will be generous and say those areas constitute an area of 4 square inches. (I'm measuring the full indicia..... the actual pence indicia difference is much less) So 1376 of 1380 square inches of the comic are indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Put that as a percentage and it comes out to 99.71% . Add to this the fact that they were printed at the same time using the same paper and inks as Cent copies (but printed at much lower percentage) and I think you have an attractive variant to collect. I like this person Gadzukes thinking. We need more of this kind of analysis Truthfully, I think you could argue the difference is closer to a total of about 1.5 square inches. That would make a Pence copy literally 99.9% identical to a Cent copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemart1966 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) Just for fun here's a different way to look at it.... Approx 99.71% of a Pence copy in indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Here's my math: -An average Marvel early 60s comic is approx 6.75" x 10.25". -The surface area of each page is approx 69 square inches. -Including the covers there are 20 printed pages, so the total surface area of the comic is approx 1380 square inches. On a pence comic the 3 different areas of the comic are the indicia, the price circle, and the date area. I will be generous and say those areas constitute an area of 4 square inches. (I'm measuring the full indicia..... the actual pence indicia difference is much less) So 1376 of 1380 square inches of the comic are indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Put that as a percentage and it comes out to 99.71% . Add to this the fact that they were printed at the same time using the same paper and inks as Cent copies (but printed at much lower percentage) and I think you have an attractive variant to collect. I like this person Gadzukes thinking. We need more of this kind of analysis Truthfully, I think you could argue the difference is closer to a total of about 1.5 square inches. That would make a Pence copy literally 99.9% identical to a Cent copy. However small that % it is, it's enough to make a HUGE difference in the price - North American version vs UK version... Edited January 19, 2017 by pemart1966 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadzukes Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) Just for fun here's a different way to look at it.... Approx 99.71% of a Pence copy in indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Here's my math: -An average Marvel early 60s comic is approx 6.75" x 10.25". -The surface area of each page is approx 69 square inches. -Including the covers there are 20 printed pages, so the total surface area of the comic is approx 1380 square inches. On a pence comic the 3 different areas of the comic are the indicia, the price circle, and the date area. I will be generous and say those areas constitute an area of 4 square inches. (I'm measuring the full indicia..... the actual pence indicia difference is much less) So 1376 of 1380 square inches of the comic are indistinguishable from a Cent copy. Put that as a percentage and it comes out to 99.71% . Add to this the fact that they were printed at the same time using the same paper and inks as Cent copies (but printed at much lower percentage) and I think you have an attractive variant to collect. I like this person Gadzukes thinking. We need more of this kind of analysis Truthfully, I think you could argue the difference is closer to a total of about 1.5 square inches. That would make a Pence copy literally 99.9% identical to a Cent copy. However small that % it is, it's enough to make a HUGE difference in the price - North American version vs UK version... Agreed.... the rarity of the Pence Variant makes it worth much more. Edited January 19, 2017 by gadzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadzukes Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 Does everyone agree that Pence copies, at least on key issues, seem to be gaining some ground in both respect and value, or is that still under debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... There's the price variation and removal of the date. And at the bottom of the indicia it states "distributed in the U.K. by Thorpe And Porter". And that's it. ....or L Miller, depending on the title. Early Pence copies have the price in Pence (obviously!), the cover date removed and an additional line at the foot of the indicia as above (Thorpe & Porter or L Miller). Then the cover date stopped being removed. Then the additional indicia line ceased. Then the cover headings changed to "Marvel All-Colour Comics" so as not to clash with B&W British reprints. Then the final run of 20p Pence copies had just the cover price difference. So a few incidental changes throughout the history, but with the one overriding constant, the cover price. Hence "UK Pence Price Variants" Nice breakdown of what I mentioned. (I didn't want to check all that and then type it out ) Now give us the dates for all those changes. Add to this the fact that they were printed at the same time using the same paper and inks as Cent copies (but printed at much lower percentage) and I think you have an attractive variant to collect. Honestly, I don't think they're attractive to collect at all. I'm not interested in them and only own one. I just don't like it when people apply incorrect classifications to things, whether it's an attempt to belittle them or inflate their importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
