ASM "Whitman" copies being sold as variants - legal?

[greggy]

Show me a direct edition WITHOUT a blank cover box, and I will start to believe you. Betcha' can't find one.

 

 

How much?

You sober? If so, why are you still friggin' awake?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Show me a direct edition WITHOUT a blank cover box, and I will start to believe you. Betcha' can't find one.

 

 

How much?

You sober? If so, why are you still friggin' awake?

 

Just woke up. Fell asleep around 9...

[THE_BEYONDER]

Give me proof. That is all I want. I am dying to know the truth and would love to be corrected by someone that has proof. If your so-called Whitman's had blank UPC boxes, then what did the direct editions have? Show me a direct edition WITHOUT a blank cover box, and I will start to believe you. Betcha' can't find one.

 

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35765&item=6523066760&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

 

Here is an ASM 174 "Whitman" too.

 

[ASM-completist]

Looks like a newstand edition put out by Curtis Circulation(CC) if you ask me. See insert of newstand edition of ASM 234. This does not appear to be a DIRECT edition.

 

So, where is your proof?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Looks like a newstand edition put out by Curtis Circulation(CC) if you ask me. See insert of newstand edition of ASM 234. This does not appear to be a DIRECT edition.

 

So, where is your proof?

 

My mistake.

 

How about this?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Me to this Thread: Why won't you die?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Me to this Thread: Why won't you die?

 

Probably would have...but I just bumped it from page 2.

[ASM-completist]

Looks like a newstand edition put out by Curtis Circulation(CC) if you ask me. See insert of newstand edition of ASM 234. This does not appear to be a DIRECT edition.

 

So, where is your proof?

 

My mistake.

 

How about this?

 

 

So where is the counterpart with the blank cover box? Remember this post of mine:

 

"Give me proof. That is all I want. I am dying to know the truth and would love to be corrected by someone that has proof. If your so-called Whitman's had blank UPC boxes, then what did the direct editions have? Show me a direct edition WITHOUT a blank cover box, and I will start to believe you. Betcha' can't find one."

 

I was discussing his claim that Whitmans had the blank cover box. So I wanted to see his direct edition counterpart. There isn't one. Is there a MTU 54 with a blank cover box?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Is there a MTU 54 with a blank cover box?

 

Before we continue...please keep in mind that I was delerious (*see my discussion with greggy above) when I 1st responded to this thread.

 

 

And "no"...I don't have one with a blank UPC.

[howardhallis]

I'm really really sorry to this thread, but I had to

 

(I also posted this in Comics Marketplace, where Taste_of_H8red has been getting very frustrated with me)

 

I was looking around for other Direct Editions for some of the Whitman variants I have and couldn't find any listed online. That's interesting to me because this brings up a good point: If they were direct editions, they were still much scarcer than regular editions back then.

 

The whole point for some variant hunters is adding editions to their collections they may already have but are somehow slightly different. For me, being an obsessive Doctor Strange freak, I hunted down the Doctor Strange #33 that I heard had the blank UPC box (as well as the Defenders #52) and whether it be a Direct Edition/Whitman, A regular Direct Edition or an official Marvel Whitman is not the point... I BELIEVE it to be a Marvel Whitman. Prove ME wrong!

 

Besides, it's not like these variants are expensive. Most Whitmans can be picked up pretty cheap. Except for some of the DC ones, which are listed in Overstreet as a bit more expensive than the regular editions (take a look under DC Comics Presents if ya don't believe me), you can get a Spidey or Star Wars "Whitman" for less or the same price as the normal copy. Some places like Mile High may list them for a little more (check out Defenders #52 on their site), but hey... most folks aren't even to the point in their collections where they would care either way and may never be.

 

Speaking of which, Marvel Whitman sounds like the name of a hockey player from North Battleford, Saskatchewan.

[Earl Davis]

I like to use the following definitions when talking about different editions..

 

Alternate Edition (When books are printed roughly in a 50:50 ratio)

 

Otherwise…

 

Standard Edition (For the more common book)

Variant Edition (For the less common book)

 

By this definition a variant is scarcer than the standard edition but this does not necessarily make it more valuable when the dynamics of demand are factored in.

 

Therefore these early direct market Marvel’s are Variants in my book. I would not personally pay more for one than the ‘Standard edition’. But that’s just my opinion.

[FFB]

I like to use the following definitions when talking about different editions..

 

Alternate Edition (When books are printed roughly in a 50:50 ratio)

 

Otherwise…

 

Standard Edition (For the more common book)

Variant Edition (For the less common book)

 

By this definition a variant is scarcer than the standard edition but this does not necessarily make it more valuable when the dynamics of demand are factored in.

 

Therefore these early direct market Marvel’s are Variants in my book. I would not personally pay more for one than the ‘Standard edition’. But that’s just my opinion.

 

Just because the variants were printed in smaller numbers doesn't mean that fewer survived. Direct market copies almost ALL survived because they were sold in protective bags and through comic specialty stores. Newsstand copies sold through at something like 30-50% (meaning half or more of the print run was returned/destroyed) and tended to be purchased by kids who didn't have comic bags and who trashed their books.

 

Also, as the direct market caught on, the numbers began favoring the direct market copies -- to the point where within a couple of years, there were far more surviving copies of direct market books than newsstand books, except no one knows where to draw the line. This is why Overstreet does not differentiate between the two in value. Are they strictly "variants" in the classic sense of the word? Sure, because they are different. But they're BOTH variants and anyone who would pay more for one than he would for another is doing so more from ignorance about perceived scarcity than he is for any real, good reason.

[Earl Davis]

FFB - I agree with the ‘don’t pay more’ part of your post. I don’t have any facts on what percentage of the early Direct Editions have likely survived over the Newsstand Editions although from a casual observation of places like Mile High most scans seem to be of the Newsstand editions suggesting they may be more common – but hey I’m a DC man so I don’t look at all that many 70’s Marvel scans.

 

I guess I decided to joint in this thread as I think the e-bay seller here is being unfairly jumped on. Describing these as ‘Whitman Variants’ may not be the right thing to do in an e-bay auction. Calling them ‘early Direct market variants’ or similar is fine in my book. If they were DC’s, as a collector I would appreciate them being highlighted as such to make it easier to find them on ebay if I was looking for them.

 

As far as recent Newsstand ‘variants’ go, we have already seen premium prices paid for some of these. I am thinking of the issues which were sold very cheaply in the Direct market (The 9 cent FF) but which had the full $2.99 price on the Newsstand edition. For the last few years the Marvel’s Newsstands had a $2.99 price on them whilst the Direct Editions were around $2.25. Most of these modern price variants have not seen any premium prices in the secondary market but who’s to say they won’t in future. The main thing perhaps holding them back is the prices don’t particularly stand out these days like they do on the 70’s price variants.

[FFB]

FFB - I agree with the ‘don’t pay more’ part of your post. I don’t have any facts on what percentage of the early Direct Editions have likely survived over the Newsstand Editions although from a casual observation of places like Mile High most scans seem to be of the Newsstand editions suggesting they may be more common – but hey I’m a DC man so I don’t look at all that many 70’s Marvel scans.

 

More common "in any grade," yes. More common in "very high grade," no.

 

I guess I decided to joint in this thread as I think the e-bay seller here is being unfairly jumped on. Describing these as ‘Whitman Variants’ may not be the right thing to do in an e-bay auction. Calling them ‘early Direct market variants’ or similar is fine in my book. If they were DC’s, as a collector I would appreciate them being highlighted as such to make it easier to find them on ebay if I was looking for them.

 

They aren't Whitman variants and he knows it. People are just calling him on it and he's trying to argue (without any proof) that they are Whitman variants so that he can make a few extra bucks and save face. It's not the biggest deal in the world, but it is a bit dishonest to call these books Whitman variants when these supposed "Whitman variants" are just regular old direct market copies.

 

As far as recent Newsstand ‘variants’ go, we have already seen premium prices paid for some of these. I am thinking of the issues which were sold very cheaply in the Direct market (The 9 cent FF) but which had the full $2.99 price on the Newsstand edition. For the last few years the Marvel’s Newsstands had a $2.99 price on them whilst the Direct Editions were around $2.25. Most of these modern price variants have not seen any premium prices in the secondary market but who’s to say they won’t in future. The main thing perhaps holding them back is the prices don’t particularly stand out these days like they do on the 70’s price variants.

 

This is a different animal entirely. Those modern price variants are what they are. If people want to pay more for them, fine. If not, fine. But to use your modern distribution as an analogy, it would be disingenuous and dishonest to take 50 regular newsstand copies off the rack at Borders, call them "Borders Newsstand Variants," and claim that they have premium value compared to other newsstand copies despite the fact that they are completely identical to every other newsstand copy. That is basically what is happening here with these supposed Marvel Whitman variants.

[ASM-completist]

I'm really really sorry to this thread, but I had to

 

(I also posted this in Comics Marketplace, where Taste_of_H8red has been getting very frustrated with me)

 

I was looking around for other Direct Editions for some of the Whitman variants I have and couldn't find any listed online. That's interesting to me because this brings up a good point: If they were direct editions, they were still much scarcer than regular editions back then.

 

The whole point for some variant hunters is adding editions to their collections they may already have but are somehow slightly different. For me, being an obsessive Doctor Strange freak, I hunted down the Doctor Strange #33 that I heard had the blank UPC box (as well as the Defenders #52) and whether it be a Direct Edition/Whitman, A regular Direct Edition or an official Marvel Whitman is not the point... I BELIEVE it to be a Marvel Whitman. Prove ME wrong!

 

Besides, it's not like these variants are expensive. Most Whitmans can be picked up pretty cheap. Except for some of the DC ones, which are listed in Overstreet as a bit more expensive than the regular editions (take a look under DC Comics Presents if ya don't believe me), you can get a Spidey or Star Wars "Whitman" for less or the same price as the normal copy. Some places like Mile High may list them for a little more (check out Defenders #52 on their site), but hey... most folks aren't even to the point in their collections where they would care either way and may never be.

 

Speaking of which, Marvel Whitman sounds like the name of a hockey player from North Battleford, Saskatchewan.

 

Prove you wrong? I can do it in several ways. First, there is nothing on the comic that mentions anything about Whitman. Secondly, it is the same as a direct edition. Thirdly, NO comic authority(CGC, Overstreet, etc.) of which I know, recognizes it as being a variant. In fact, some, (Doug Sulipa, some WWW sites) have also commented on how they are not variants and simply direct editions that did not sell and were repackaged. Also, the majority of posters on the subject agree that it is not a variant and they are mostly long-time, knowledgeable collectors.

 

Of course they are cheap because they are simply direct editions and do not differ in ANY way. There is no reason for them to be more expensive?

 

BTW - Taking chill pill now.

[Hobgoblin]

This thread is good for a laugh each and every day

[howardhallis]

Prove you wrong? I can do it in several ways. First, there is nothing on the comic that mentions anything about Whitman. Secondly, it is the same as a direct edition. Thirdly, NO comic authority(CGC, Overstreet, etc.) of which I know, recognizes it as being a variant. In fact, some, (Doug Sulipa, some WWW sites) have also commented on how they are not variants and simply direct editions that did not sell and were repackaged. Also, the majority of posters on the subject agree that it is not a variant and they are mostly long-time, knowledgeable collectors.

 

Of course they are cheap because they are simply direct editions and do not differ in ANY way. There is no reason for them to be more expensive?

 

BTW - Taking chill pill now.

 

The interiors of the DC Whitmans, which do have the Whitman bullet instead of the DC one, have identical interiors, so there's no surprise that the Marvel ones are the same inside. To me, a blank UPC and a diamond price box say to me that it came from a bag of 3 or more comics rather than a direct edition, but whatever. I'm sick of arguing about it.

 

Speaking of people really stretching the idea of what is and what isn't a variant, have a look at this little auction...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16462&item=5973446781&rd=1

[Darthdiesel]

Speaking of people really stretching the idea of what is and what isn't a variant, have a look at this little auction...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16462&item=5973446781&rd=1

 

real Dr. Strange afficionados know the real variant figure has 36 points of articulation

[ASM-completist]

Prove you wrong? I can do it in several ways. First, there is nothing on the comic that mentions anything about Whitman. Secondly, it is the same as a direct edition. Thirdly, NO comic authority(CGC, Overstreet, etc.) of which I know, recognizes it as being a variant. In fact, some, (Doug Sulipa, some WWW sites) have also commented on how they are not variants and simply direct editions that did not sell and were repackaged. Also, the majority of posters on the subject agree that it is not a variant and they are mostly long-time, knowledgeable collectors.

 

Of course they are cheap because they are simply direct editions and do not differ in ANY way. There is no reason for them to be more expensive?

 

BTW - Taking chill pill now.

 

The interiors of the DC Whitmans, which do have the Whitman bullet instead of the DC one, have identical interiors, so there's no surprise that the Marvel ones are the same inside. To me, a blank UPC and a diamond price box say to me that it came from a bag of 3 or more comics rather than a direct edition, but whatever. I'm sick of arguing about it.

 

Keep in mind that I am not trying to sound condescending in any way:

 

Then you must feel the same way about a cover box with a slashed UPC huh? They too were placed in Whitman 3-packs..... and sold as direct editions. Just letting you know in case you want to collect those issues as such too.

[Samruby]

Hopefully this will be the last time this will be addressed, but I somehow doubt it.

 

There is absolutely no proof that these comics were sold on newsstands, the few comics shops that were in existence in 1977 or so. I was there (late 1977/ early 1978), scoping out MANY venues for new and old comics in the tri-state area, and other states, and knew many other collectors at the time. The problem here is that people think these comics were the start of the true (as we know it now) direct market. It wasn't.

 

Taken from the link at http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg108.html, it is quite apparant at what I have been saying all along: The true Direct Market began in 1979. If anyone things that an Alexanders Department store, or a mom and pop drug store, or a Kay-B Toy Store, et al, had a direct market account to sell new comics, they are dead wrong. The fact also remains that there were VERY few comic shops in the country when these "Whitman" variants were first made avilable. In fact, it has been estimated that there was a whopping 30 comic shops in the mid 70's alone (http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html)...Anyone can say what they want about the author of these articles, but his actual experiences in the field are second to very few. The early beginnings of the direct market actually began in the early 70's, so I guess there exists an ASM #129 with a no UPC/ diamond/ etc?

 

I vividly remember the first comic shop I ever been to was around early 1980, and it was called Heroes World in Woodbridge Center Mall - Woodbridge New Jersey (which at the time was one of the largest malls on the east coast and a good place for a then-new type of store). They received all the comics about three weeks before the 7-11's and newsstands, and were true direct market. Like I said before, I also seen true early direct market copies in flea markets, but very very few of them...The early to mid ASM 190's were the comics that came out early. The same cannot be said of the ASM's (and other titles) of the 180's, unless they were in 3-packs in grocery stores, and other similar places...Here is breakdown of the percentages taken from the above mentioned article which begins with the year 1979 for VERY good reason:

 

1979 Direct Market 6% of Marvel's gross sales

1982 Direct Market 20% of Marvel's gross sales

1985 Direct Market 50% of Marvel's gross sales

1987 Direct Market 70% of Marvel's gross sales

 

VERY telling, and remember, The "Whitmans" were sold in 1977 to early 1979. If the direct market was 6% in 1979, what was it in 1977, if it truly existed as we now know it?

 

It's a long read, but In the same article, it appears that there was alot of negotiating in early 1979 for the direct market, and then shops began to appear more and more, with this new incentive of non-returnable comics (direct market). As far as the heat-sealing [#@$%!!!] goes, I perfectly remember dealers doing this to the 1979 and post-79 comics. They didn't have the others available separately to begin with.

 

As far as the authorities go:

 

Overstreet doesn't even come close to true valuation amongst variants (30 and 35 cent variants are obscenely underpriced), plus I can name between 50 to 100 Spider-Man related promotional, mail away, and similar comic books that are not even mentioned in the OS Guide.

 

As far as not mentioning other types of variants, OS does not mention Untold Tales Flip Variants, Scarlet Spider Variants, Maximum Clonage Gold Variant, and others. This is just one title that there are plenty of ommissions in the guide...There is a healthy market for these variants, which I know for a fact with want lists from collectors around the world.

 

The bottom line: These comics are variants, and again: who the hell is anybody to say what they are worth? And from a personal level, I have only a handful of copies in inventory, but I have been planning my purchase of that Mansion on the Hill for weeks now.

 

People just base their opinions on facts, or personal experiences. If they were not collecting in the late 1970's, and did not come across these comics, then your opinion is much less valuable than those who did. If anyone wants proof of anything, well then prove to me that these "Whitmans" were sold in the very few comic shops back then, or on a newsstand, or in a 7-11/ convienance store...If I turn out to be wrong in any way, then I am wrong, simple as that...But until then, prove that these were sold in newsstands and the like...We definitely know they were sold in three packs, but not the latter. Prove it.

 

Like I said people need to argue until they are "right", yet they do not have the facts or experiences to back up their position. Instead they call people (that they do not know) dishonest. Real classy, and something to be proud of I guess.

 

BTW: I purchased a similar (with UPC) MTU #54 in a 3-pack in an Alexanders department store in the summer of 1978. Why do I remember this? Because I was ticked that I then needed #53 for the beginning of the story. This happened alot. There is no apparant rhyme or reason why one comic had a diamond, one no UPC, one a combination of variations.

 

Im done for now, until someone shows tangible proof, and yes it's probably close to impossible to prove, but then again this whole argument is ridiculous to begin with.

 

And I am very sorry if I sound condescending as well, but when someone attacks my reputation (which I have worked VERY hard to obtain), I am sure as hell going to protect it,

 

Eric