ASM "Whitman" copies being sold as variants - legal?

[howardhallis]

It's interesting that, unlike the regular sized comics, the Marvel Treasuries DO have the Whitman logo (thanks to Flying Donut for the image)

 

[tay666]

You might find this page of interest

http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/Direct/index.htm

It shows the different versions of early marvel direct covers.

Also, direct quotes from overstreet guides on why they are not noted in their listings.

 

As for the people screaming about calling the early direct marvels - whitman's.

It is no worse than any of these other proprietary eponyms

 

Band-Aid — plastic adhesive bandages

Cool Whip — whipped cream topping

Kleenex — tissues

Q-Tips — cotton buds or cotton swabs

Rollerblades — in-line skates

Rolodex — rotary card file

Saran Wrap — cling film (Britain) or food storage wrap

Scotch tape — adhesive cellophane tape

Tylenol — pain reliever

Vaseline — petroleum jelly

Walkman — personal hand-held CD/cassette player

Xerox — photocopy

[ASM-completist]

Hopefully this will be the last time this will be addressed, but I somehow doubt it.

 

There is absolutely no proof that these comics were sold on newsstands, the few comics shops that were in existence in 1977 or so. I was there (late 1977/ early 1978), scoping out MANY venues for new and old comics in the tri-state area, and other states, and knew many other collectors at the time. The problem here is that people think these comics were the start of the true (as we know it now) direct market. It wasn't.

 

Taken from the link at http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg108.html, it is quite apparant at what I have been saying all along: The true Direct Market began in 1979. If anyone things that an Alexanders Department store, or a mom and pop drug store, or a Kay-B Toy Store, et al, had a direct market account to sell new comics, they are dead wrong. The fact also remains that there were VERY few comic shops in the country when these "Whitman" variants were first made avilable. In fact, it has been estimated that there was a whopping 30 comic shops in the mid 70's alone (http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html)...Anyone can say what they want about the author of these articles, but his actual experiences in the field are second to very few. The early beginnings of the direct market actually began in the early 70's, so I guess there exists an ASM #129 with a no UPC/ diamond/ etc?

 

I vividly remember the first comic shop I ever been to was around early 1980, and it was called Heroes World in Woodbridge Center Mall - Woodbridge New Jersey (which at the time was one of the largest malls on the east coast and a good place for a then-new type of store). They received all the comics about three weeks before the 7-11's and newsstands, and were true direct market. Like I said before, I also seen true early direct market copies in flea markets, but very very few of them...The early to mid ASM 190's were the comics that came out early. The same cannot be said of the ASM's (and other titles) of the 180's, unless they were in 3-packs in grocery stores, and other similar places...Here is breakdown of the percentages taken from the above mentioned article which begins with the year 1979 for VERY good reason:

 

1979 Direct Market 6% of Marvel's gross sales

1982 Direct Market 20% of Marvel's gross sales

1985 Direct Market 50% of Marvel's gross sales

1987 Direct Market 70% of Marvel's gross sales

 

VERY telling, and remember, The "Whitmans" were sold in 1977 to early 1979. If the direct market was 6% in 1979, what was it in 1977, if it truly existed as we now know it?

 

It's a long read, but In the same article, it appears that there was alot of negotiating in early 1979 for the direct market, and then shops began to appear more and more, with this new incentive of non-returnable comics (direct market). As far as the heat-sealing [#@$%!!!] goes, I perfectly remember dealers doing this to the 1979 and post-79 comics. They didn't have the others available separately to begin with.

 

As far as the authorities go:

 

Overstreet doesn't even come close to true valuation amongst variants (30 and 35 cent variants are obscenely underpriced), plus I can name between 50 to 100 Spider-Man related promotional, mail away, and similar comic books that are not even mentioned in the OS Guide.

 

As far as not mentioning other types of variants, OS does not mention Untold Tales Flip Variants, Scarlet Spider Variants, Maximum Clonage Gold Variant, and others. This is just one title that there are plenty of ommissions in the guide...There is a healthy market for these variants, which I know for a fact with want lists from collectors around the world.

 

The bottom line: These comics are variants, and again: who the hell is anybody to say what they are worth? And from a personal level, I have only a handful of copies in inventory, but I have been planning my purchase of that Mansion on the Hill for weeks now.

 

People just base their opinions on facts, or personal experiences. If they were not collecting in the late 1970's, and did not come across these comics, then your opinion is much less valuable than those who did. If anyone wants proof of anything, well then prove to me that these "Whitmans" were sold in the very few comic shops back then, or on a newsstand, or in a 7-11/ convienance store...If I turn out to be wrong in any way, then I am wrong, simple as that...But until then, prove that these were sold in newsstands and the like...We definitely know they were sold in three packs, but not the latter. Prove it.

 

Like I said people need to argue until they are "right", yet they do not have the facts or experiences to back up their position. Instead they call people (that they do not know) dishonest. Real classy, and something to be proud of I guess.

 

BTW: I purchased a similar (with UPC) MTU #54 in a 3-pack in an Alexanders department store in the summer of 1978. Why do I remember this? Because I was ticked that I then needed #53 for the beginning of the story. This happened alot. There is no apparant rhyme or reason why one comic had a diamond, one no UPC, one a combination of variations.

 

Im done for now, until someone shows tangible proof, and yes it's probably close to impossible to prove, but then again this whole argument is ridiculous to begin with.

 

And I am very sorry if I sound condescending as well, but when someone attacks my reputation (which I have worked VERY hard to obtain), I am sure as hell going to protect it,

 

Eric

 

Great info Eric and yes, it was a long read. I too am very interested when, and more specifically with what ASM issue, the Direct Market copies began being published/distributed as separately from the newstand editions. This has been one of my primary questions about ASM for a long time.

 

Your comments about OS and variants was dead on of course.

 

I hope that you did not take any of my comments as attacking your reputation. If so, I apologize for they were not intended to be that way. I am simply interested in discovering the facts and am also interested in as much proof as possible. You feel that your proof is in your experience/knowledge and I feel that there hasn't been ENOUGH proof to warrant me thinking that they were sold STRICTLY in the 3 packs and NOT as direct editions. If there was some way to discover when the first direct edition of an ASM issue was and if that issue was AFTER one appeared in a Whitman 3 pack, I think we would have some very sound proof. Do you know which ASM issue was the first to be in a Whitman 3-pack? The WWW site mentioned, http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/Direct/index.htm, discusses the direct market from 1977-1979. This site indicates that it was issue 164(no pic) or 165(pic for proof). It claims that Whitman copies were indeed direct market editions. It also indicates that it is a misconception that they were ONLY distributed in these 3 packs, when indeed they were not.

 

"Direct Sale issues are the same printing as the Newsstand issues but with modified covers to denote that these issues were sold directly to comic shops and to distibutors, the most noted being the Western Publishing Company which distributed Direct Sale issues in their Whitman three-packs . Unlike Newsstand issues which could be returned if unsold, the Direct Sale issues could not be returned and the cover modification was Marvel's way of marking these issues. It is a common misconception that these early Direct Sale books were distributed only in Whitman three-packs. While it is true Western Publishing was the largest distributor of Marvel Direct Sale issues in 1977-1979 they were not the only distributor. In May 1979 Marvel expanded the Direct Sale program to include issues sent out to their subscribers."

 

I can not speak to the validity of this site but it does, based on content, appear to merit some attention. You had previously stated that the "true direct market" began in 1979. Do you agree then, that there was at LEAST a direct market before 1979? According to the site, Western was not the ONLY distributor in 1977-1979, they were just the largest. Does this not indicate, on some level, that there WAS a direct market in 1977?

[FFB]

Eric,

 

Let me add some facts to this:

 

1) Phil Seuling began Seagate Distribution in 1972. That is when the direct market began.

 

2) Chuck said that there were 30 comic shops and about 100 other specialty shops that sold new comics in 1974, when Chuck opened his store. Chuck also said that thanks to the efficiency of delivery through Seagate, the number of comic stores in the country between 1972 and 1977 exploded LINK -- which I take to mean that there were a lot more than 30 comic stores in 1977. In fact, right here Chuck says that the number of comic specialty stores in the country in 1979 was 500.

 

3) Comics sold through Phil Seuling's company were sold at a 40% discount to cover price and were non-returnable. This compares to a 30% discount to cover price that stores got on returnable comics through the ID wholesalers. Because the comics were non-returnable, they had to look different from the returnable copies.

 

4) As for the number of comics being sold in the direct market back then, Chuck says that within 12 months of ordering from Phil Seuling, he had captured "50% of the total new comics volume in the Boulder region." We're not talking about a few direct market copies here.

 

5) Chuck became Seuling's second subdistributor in the Boulder region in 1978.

 

6) Prior to 1979, several other "direct market" distribution companies were purchasing directly from Marvel on a non-returnable basis. LINK.

 

7) 1979 wasn't when the "true direct market" started -- it was when Phil Seuling lost his virtual monopoly. LINK Link 2 Link 3

 

 

Hopefully this will be the last time this will be addressed, but I somehow doubt it.

 

There is absolutely no proof that these comics were sold on newsstands, the few comics shops that were in existence in 1977 or so. I was there (late 1977/ early 1978), scoping out MANY venues for new and old comics in the tri-state area, and other states, and knew many other collectors at the time. The problem here is that people think these comics were the start of the true (as we know it now) direct market. It wasn't.

 

Taken from the link at http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg108.html, it is quite apparant at what I have been saying all along: The true Direct Market began in 1979. If anyone things that an Alexanders Department store, or a mom and pop drug store, or a Kay-B Toy Store, et al, had a direct market account to sell new comics, they are dead wrong. The fact also remains that there were VERY few comic shops in the country when these "Whitman" variants were first made avilable. In fact, it has been estimated that there was a whopping 30 comic shops in the mid 70's alone (http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html)...Anyone can say what they want about the author of these articles, but his actual experiences in the field are second to very few. The early beginnings of the direct market actually began in the early 70's, so I guess there exists an ASM #129 with a no UPC/ diamond/ etc?

 

I vividly remember the first comic shop I ever been to was around early 1980, and it was called Heroes World in Woodbridge Center Mall - Woodbridge New Jersey (which at the time was one of the largest malls on the east coast and a good place for a then-new type of store). They received all the comics about three weeks before the 7-11's and newsstands, and were true direct market. Like I said before, I also seen true early direct market copies in flea markets, but very very few of them...The early to mid ASM 190's were the comics that came out early. The same cannot be said of the ASM's (and other titles) of the 180's, unless they were in 3-packs in grocery stores, and other similar places...Here is breakdown of the percentages taken from the above mentioned article which begins with the year 1979 for VERY good reason:

 

1979 Direct Market 6% of Marvel's gross sales

1982 Direct Market 20% of Marvel's gross sales

1985 Direct Market 50% of Marvel's gross sales

1987 Direct Market 70% of Marvel's gross sales

 

VERY telling, and remember, The "Whitmans" were sold in 1977 to early 1979. If the direct market was 6% in 1979, what was it in 1977, if it truly existed as we now know it?

 

It's a long read, but In the same article, it appears that there was alot of negotiating in early 1979 for the direct market, and then shops began to appear more and more, with this new incentive of non-returnable comics (direct market). As far as the heat-sealing [#@$%!!!] goes, I perfectly remember dealers doing this to the 1979 and post-79 comics. They didn't have the others available separately to begin with.

 

As far as the authorities go:

 

Overstreet doesn't even come close to true valuation amongst variants (30 and 35 cent variants are obscenely underpriced), plus I can name between 50 to 100 Spider-Man related promotional, mail away, and similar comic books that are not even mentioned in the OS Guide.

 

As far as not mentioning other types of variants, OS does not mention Untold Tales Flip Variants, Scarlet Spider Variants, Maximum Clonage Gold Variant, and others. This is just one title that there are plenty of ommissions in the guide...There is a healthy market for these variants, which I know for a fact with want lists from collectors around the world.

 

The bottom line: These comics are variants, and again: who the hell is anybody to say what they are worth? And from a personal level, I have only a handful of copies in inventory, but I have been planning my purchase of that Mansion on the Hill for weeks now.

 

People just base their opinions on facts, or personal experiences. If they were not collecting in the late 1970's, and did not come across these comics, then your opinion is much less valuable than those who did. If anyone wants proof of anything, well then prove to me that these "Whitmans" were sold in the very few comic shops back then, or on a newsstand, or in a 7-11/ convienance store...If I turn out to be wrong in any way, then I am wrong, simple as that...But until then, prove that these were sold in newsstands and the like...We definitely know they were sold in three packs, but not the latter. Prove it.

 

Like I said people need to argue until they are "right", yet they do not have the facts or experiences to back up their position. Instead they call people (that they do not know) dishonest. Real classy, and something to be proud of I guess.

 

BTW: I purchased a similar (with UPC) MTU #54 in a 3-pack in an Alexanders department store in the summer of 1978. Why do I remember this? Because I was ticked that I then needed #53 for the beginning of the story. This happened alot. There is no apparant rhyme or reason why one comic had a diamond, one no UPC, one a combination of variations.

 

Im done for now, until someone shows tangible proof, and yes it's probably close to impossible to prove, but then again this whole argument is ridiculous to begin with.

 

And I am very sorry if I sound condescending as well, but when someone attacks my reputation (which I have worked VERY hard to obtain), I am sure as hell going to protect it,

 

Eric

[Samruby]

To anyone interested, and for what it is worth:

 

1. The fact that the direct marker began in 1972 is something I already stated (early 70's is a good enough timeframe as 1972 I would hope)...This really proves nothing...If it did, then where are all the examples of ASM #109 with a diamond/ No UPC/ etc.? It just proves that the direct market went through certain "stages", up until 1979, where it is now been almost unchanged since.

 

2. "Explosive growth", as stated in the link, in comics shops throughout the country during the 1972-1977 period, is all relative. How many stores were there then? Even if it went from 30 to 300, a ten-fold high-end (and probably unrealistic) assumption, this would still be an infintesimal amount of stores spread throughout an entire country, especially when compared to the 6% statistic given for 1979.

 

1979 was 500...Ok, So I guess 300 is a bit too much of an suumption for that "Explosive growth" from 1972 to 1977. This makes sense, since the "true" direct market (as far as comic dealers go) grew and grew like I said earlier up to the point in 1979, when these new line-through-UPC/ skinny-diamond books came into existence around ASM in the mid 190's. It only makes sense that 1979 was the KEY year for the direct market, and the beginning of the increase of the then 6% direct market share.

 

3. Yes, Non-Returnable can probably be synonomous with direct market, at least in the comic store/ flea market/ individual dealers working out of their home/ etc. case.

 

4. Ok, so if 50% of the Boulder area were direct market, then where are all these copies of the diamond/ no UPC/ etc. ASM before late 160's? And all of the many other titles then? They have to exist then, right? Heck, the hundreds of conventions, and hordes of e-bay dealers, et al, you would think that SOMEONE would have come up with one by now. I have never seen one, having bought loads of Spider-Man collections, and never heard of anyone with hard proof of one. Maybe I shoudln't say this, but I can "cook" up an ASM #129 with no UPC and diamond in a minute on Photoshop (yet I do remember someone doing a price variant of this issue as a joke some time ago), and with all the ASM #1 Mint - Selling, image stealing, only wire transfer acceptance of payment scammers out there, I am surprised no one has even attempted this. Like I said, maybe I should not have said that, so beware:)

 

5. Chuck became a distributor in 1978.

 

6. Yes, agreed...That "magic" year of 1979 again. That link is very interesting in that it shows that something was "going on" in very early 1979, and again there were no 3-pack comics (aside from Shogun Warriors) from March and April of 1979. After this little "rest", the 3-packs in gorcery stores ended, and I remember seeing ASM's at flea markets, and eventually Heroes World. Obviously, it began slowly, and gained steam, as more more of these direct markets issues showed up each and every issue. ASM #194 was a good example of the confusion of this time period, and I remember it well in the flea markets back then. I remember these dealers being ecstatic about this "new" offer of getting comics about three weeks earlier than newsstands, and it was the "big thing" back then.

 

7. 1979 was the beginning of the direct market as we know it now. The direct market beginning in 1972, or whatever year, is all semantics. There were no distinguishing marks on these early comics to denote them from being any diffrent from newsstand comics, and none exist.

 

FFB: I am very sorry that this has turned into what it has with you, as you seem very personable and knowledgeable about comics...The bottom line here is that I would love to see an ASM before the late 160's with some strange distinguishing marks. If they existed, I don't think it would be much of an argument to suggest that they would go for alot of money, especially a 121, 122, 129, 135, 136, 149, and the like.

 

The 35 cent variants were sold in very few locales, yet we see them all the time (yet not enough to satisfy demand). I remember seeing an ASM #74 in a very early 3 or 4-pack (with Daredevil and some other 1 or 2 titles), but this comic was the same as the newsstand version. The same is said about seeing a few pre late-160's ASM's in 3-packs, and again, they were the same as the newsstand copies.

 

I think that this is the point of argument now: Where there comics with distinguishing marks before the ones sold in the Whitman 3-packs? That is the question to be answered now I would think. As of now, I think it is safe to say that these distinguishing marks began with these Whitman 3-packs, until further notice, or hard proof...And then if one genuine copy showed up on e-bay, it sure as hell will go for some relatively good money.

 

Eric

[FFB]

Eric,

 

The existence of the direct market in 1972 does not mean that the 1977 and later methods of differentiating between direct/newsstand comics were used before 1977. I know that there are no "different cover" books preceding 1977. I haven't seen them either. But that doesn't mean that the direct market books printed in 1977-1979 are "Whitman variants."

 

Perhaps it took Marvel five years of dealing with Seuling and the few other direct market distributors before realizing that some of the newsstand people got ahold of "direct market" copies and were returning them for "newsstand returnable" credit. It is not unreasonable to think that it might have taken Marvel a few years of experience before figuring out that they needed to alter the covers enough to make that impossible to do.

 

The point of my providing the facts I did is to show that there was an active direct market before 1979. Whether the direct market then existed in a similar form to how it existed post 1979 is irrelevant -- the revolutionary post-1979 changes to the distributor arrangements had to do with exclusivity of distribution, not with how Marvel printed its comics. Therefore, 1977 direct market copies are not necessarily "Whitman-only variant" books, which is the point I thought you were making. It just means that Western Publishing (one of the several distributors along with Seuling, Pacific, et al., handling direct market copies in 1977) distributed ordinary direct market copies and happened to seal those direct market copies in Whitman bags. That doesn't make those copies "Whitman variants." It may mean that those books are lower print run, rarer, whatever. But it doesn't make them Whitman variants any more than the ones Seuling sold are "Seuling variants."

 

I, too, am sorry that this turned into a flame war of sorts. I don't think you're a bad guy and I take back what I said about it being dishonest for you to sell these as Whitman variants. Right or wrong, you clearly believed in good faith what you were saying about the book and it appears that we just have a difference in belief based on an incomplete set of facts and based on personal memories that are probably hazy due to the passage of time.

 

In any event, I don't think you should market your books as Whitman variants at this point because despite everything we've talked about, I haven't seen any direct evidence that these books were printed solely for Whitman before 1979. The limited evidence we have now is to the contrary.

 

This discussion is interesting enough that it definitely deserves more research. Maybe an email to Chuck and Doug Sulipa, since they were both around then and they're pretty good about providing information to fill in gaps on topics such as this. And if it turns out you're right, I'll be the first to apologize for the heat you took in this thread. And if it turns out you're wrong, who cares? At least we'll have solved one of the great mysteries of early Marvel direct market distribution.

 

To anyone interested, and for what it is worth:

 

1. The fact that the direct marker began in 1972 is something I already stated (early 70's is a good enough timeframe as 1972 I would hope)...This really proves nothing...If it did, then where are all the examples of ASM #109 with a diamond/ No UPC/ etc.? It just proves that the direct market went through certain "stages", up until 1979, where it is now been almost unchanged since.

 

2. "Explosive growth", as stated in the link, in comics shops throughout the country during the 1972-1977 period, is all relative. How many stores were there then? Even if it went from 30 to 300, a ten-fold high-end (and probably unrealistic) assumption, this would still be an infintesimal amount of stores spread throughout an entire country, especially when compared to the 6% statistic given for 1979.

 

1979 was 500...Ok, So I guess 300 is a bit too much of an suumption for that "Explosive growth" from 1972 to 1977. This makes sense, since the "true" direct market (as far as comic dealers go) grew and grew like I said earlier up to the point in 1979, when these new line-through-UPC/ skinny-diamond books came into existence around ASM in the mid 190's. It only makes sense that 1979 was the KEY year for the direct market, and the beginning of the increase of the then 6% direct market share.

 

3. Yes, Non-Returnable can probably be synonomous with direct market, at least in the comic store/ flea market/ individual dealers working out of their home/ etc. case.

 

4. Ok, so if 50% of the Boulder area were direct market, then where are all these copies of the diamond/ no UPC/ etc. ASM before late 160's? And all of the many other titles then? They have to exist then, right? Heck, the hundreds of conventions, and hordes of e-bay dealers, et al, you would think that SOMEONE would have come up with one by now. I have never seen one, having bought loads of Spider-Man collections, and never heard of anyone with hard proof of one. Maybe I shoudln't say this, but I can "cook" up an ASM #129 with no UPC and diamond in a minute on Photoshop (yet I do remember someone doing a price variant of this issue as a joke some time ago), and with all the ASM #1 Mint - Selling, image stealing, only wire transfer acceptance of payment scammers out there, I am surprised no one has even attempted this. Like I said, maybe I should not have said that, so beware:)

 

5. Chuck became a distributor in 1978.

 

6. Yes, agreed...That "magic" year of 1979 again. That link is very interesting in that it shows that something was "going on" in very early 1979, and again there were no 3-pack comics (aside from Shogun Warriors) from March and April of 1979. After this little "rest", the 3-packs in gorcery stores ended, and I remember seeing ASM's at flea markets, and eventually Heroes World. Obviously, it began slowly, and gained steam, as more more of these direct markets issues showed up each and every issue. ASM #194 was a good example of the confusion of this time period, and I remember it well in the flea markets back then. I remember these dealers being ecstatic about this "new" offer of getting comics about three weeks earlier than newsstands, and it was the "big thing" back then.

 

7. 1979 was the beginning of the direct market as we know it now. The direct market beginning in 1972, or whatever year, is all semantics. There were no distinguishing marks on these early comics to denote them from being any diffrent from newsstand comics, and none exist.

 

FFB: I am very sorry that this has turned into what it has with you, as you seem very personable and knowledgeable about comics...The bottom line here is that I would love to see an ASM before the late 160's with some strange distinguishing marks. If they existed, I don't think it would be much of an argument to suggest that they would go for alot of money, especially a 121, 122, 129, 135, 136, 149, and the like.

 

The 35 cent variants were sold in very few locales, yet we see them all the time (yet not enough to satisfy demand). I remember seeing an ASM #74 in a very early 3 or 4-pack (with Daredevil and some other 1 or 2 titles), but this comic was the same as the newsstand version. The same is said about seeing a few pre late-160's ASM's in 3-packs, and again, they were the same as the newsstand copies.

 

I think that this is the point of argument now: Where there comics with distinguishing marks before the ones sold in the Whitman 3-packs? That is the question to be answered now I would think. As of now, I think it is safe to say that these distinguishing marks began with these Whitman 3-packs, until further notice, or hard proof...And then if one genuine copy showed up on e-bay, it sure as hell will go for some relatively good money.

 

Eric

[Samruby]

FFB,

 

I understand everything you just stated in your most previous post and agree, but these copies are still regarded as "Whitman", ever since I began collecting in late 77/ early 78 (sometime that winter)...Labelling them as Whitmans are all semantics that basically everyone I have come across in the comic world since, has acepted.

 

Trust me, my memory is not hazy in these first couple years. Memories one cherishes in the beginning of any fond beginning, are many times more clearer than what happened just last week. For example, I remember what I got in my first "Whitman" bag (Godzilla, MTIO, and Daredevil), but I honestly cannot remember what I got at my comic shop last week for the most part. Maybe I have Alzheimers.

 

I label these as variants, because most fans that have corresponded with me (in the past and quite a few recently) view them as such. The only way to obtian them, was to buy them in their 3-packs. The main reason they are variants for these collectors, is that they look different, and stand out when looking at them in a run of a given title. There is no evidence to them being sold separately from the 3-packs, and this is going on for almost 3 decades. I have no idea what a "Seuling variant" is, but those early direct copies MUST have been the same as a newsstand version, since there has been more than ample time and opportunity for them to resurface since.

 

Yes, technically they are direct market copies that were distributed by Western in the early direct market sense, but they are still variants, as are todays newsstand versus direct copies.

 

Do I think they are a significant enough difference to denote these as variants? They are not on my site, nor any other Spider-Man comic site as such, but there are those who have good memories of these, or just want something different, or want EVERY known variation of every issue (You cant imagine how strict some are in having just EVERY variation, no matter how slightly different). Anything that is different from the norm, is technically a variant. Yes, I do think that it gets out of hand, especially with calling the current ones variants, but technically they are variants.

 

On the other hand, I know some relatively well known collectors, that do NOT view the 30 and 35 cent variants as variants. That may seem blasphemous to some, but collectors make up their own "rules" on what they want to collect, and how much of a completist they would like to be, and there is nothing wrong with that,

 

I am all for getting this straightened out, but back then, I'm sure the people involved (Western, Marvel, et al) did not think it was important enough to document in any way, so it will be very difficult...I have been communicating/ e-mailing with a veteran writer/ editor/ artist from Marvel recently and so far nothing has come up.

 

In the end, either way, variant collectors will still consider these variants, especially the strict ones, and especially thes ones who consider the current newsstand copies as variants,

 

If there is anything I can do, other than the people I come into contact with regarding Spider-Man comics, that I can do regarding this, I am available,

 

Eric

[Samruby]

Oh yea, for any future event that I am selling these "Whitman" comics, I will add a "disclaimer" to the item description, fully stating where the term "Whitman" came from, and it's significance in the visual variation(s), and finally that not every single collector views them as variants...But then again, I do not have too many of these in the first place,

 

Eric

[Lazyboy]

Okay, from what I can see, nobody posting here has a complete knowledge of the early direct market or the 3-packs. Some people think there actually are Marvel Whitmans (even though they don't have the Whitman logo like the DCs). I thought there were, from what I had seen and heard before buying this years OPG. I will definitely defer to someone who has been in the comic business since before I was born though.

wdb23 posted a real Marvel Whitman above. However, the comics being discussed in this thread have no markings identifying them as Whitmans. They are clearly variants/alternates/whatever you want to call them, but I don't see how you can justify calling them Whitmans.

The start of this thread was ToH complaining about someone using "Whitman" in their eBay listings. I originally posted to defend the seller because it wasn't clear that they knew the "Whimans" were identical to regular direct market copies. I know I've incorrectly identified things as something in the past, only to later get new information and correctly (or maybe not ) identify them, and I'm not just talking about comics.

[Samruby]

Peter,

 

Just to clarify something, although there is no mark of "Whitman" on the comics themselves, they have been referred to as "Whitmans" ever since I have been collecting over 27 years ago. Maybe because many of them were in Whitman bags, but it is all sematics. Heck, I plead "guilty" for calling them "Whitmans", but it's just something that me and fellow collectors have been calling them for quite some time, as well Mile High Comics (for what it is worth),

 

Eric

 

PS: I am spending way too much time on this, good thing I've been sick all week:)

[howardhallis]

Another one I already posted in the Bronze section...

 

[tay666]

Peter,

 

Just to clarify something, although there is no mark of "Whitman" on the comics themselves, they have been referred to as "Whitmans" ever since I have been collecting over 27 years ago. Maybe because many of them were in Whitman bags, but it is all sematics. Heck, I plead "guilty" for calling them "Whitmans", but it's just something that me and fellow collectors have been calling them for quite some time, as well Mile High Comics (for what it is worth),

 

And if you want confirmation that Mile High calls them Whitmans, just check this link

 

It's all semantics.

To most people these are Whitmans.

Because they never saw a direct version anywhere other than in a Whitman 3 pack.

Is it technically correct - judging from the information in this thread, no.

Is it ever going to change, probably not.

Just like all the other items the people every day call by a brand name instead of what it actually is.

[ASM-completist]

To anyone interested, and for what it is worth:

 

I think that this is the point of argument now: Where there comics with distinguishing marks before the ones sold in the Whitman 3-packs? That is the question to be answered now I would think. As of now, I think it is safe to say that these distinguishing marks began with these Whitman 3-packs, until further notice, or hard proof...And then if one genuine copy showed up on e-bay, it sure as hell will go for some relatively good money.

 

Eric

 

Yes, I kinda agree. That appears to be the point now. But..... does anyone know which issue of ASM was sold in a Whitman 3-pack? I ask because there were newstand and direct editions of issue 165, as proved by the previously mentioned WWW site that featured a picture of 165. I think that issue was in FEB of 1977. There is further proof for issues 166-174 and so on. Also, notice that the site gives proof of issue 174 having a direct edition. It is the same copy, with blank cover box and diamond price, that was sold in Whitman 3-packs. To me, these two bits of info are enough to suggest that indeed there were comics with distinguishing marks before the ones sold in the Whitman 3-packs. I would love to have someone show me an original Whitman 3-pack with ASM issue 165 in it. That might make me change my mind although it would be hard to prove it was an original. Until that happens or some other new information arises, I am taking with me to the grave the idea that Whitman 3-packs simply carried direct market editions that had previously been released as such and are NOT variants.

 

Good thread though as I learned a lot. I am one of those Spidey freaks that must have EVERY distinguishing issue and thus this topis has been of great intrigue to me.

[ASM-completist]

Peter,

 

Just to clarify something, although there is no mark of "Whitman" on the comics themselves, they have been referred to as "Whitmans" ever since I have been collecting over 27 years ago. Maybe because many of them were in Whitman bags, but it is all sematics. Heck, I plead "guilty" for calling them "Whitmans", but it's just something that me and fellow collectors have been calling them for quite some time, as well Mile High Comics (for what it is worth),

 

And if you want confirmation that Mile High calls them Whitmans, just check this link

 

 

HOLY $%^&! Notice the Mile High considers ASM issue 165 a Whitman. Although, also notice that Mile High does NOT consider ASM issues 194, 195, 198, 199, 200, etc.. Whitmans. And indeed those issues, with the slashed UPC cover box, were also packaged in the Whitman 3-packs. It is as if Mile High and a few others of this thread share the same sentiment about blank cover boxes meaning they were Whitman-3pack-only comics.

 

Where are the people that have the Whitman 3-packs? Why are they not contributing to this thread? Someone must have a few with some early ASM issues in them. What is the hold up? I only have one and it has issue 199 in it.

[tay666]

Peter,

 

Just to clarify something, although there is no mark of "Whitman" on the comics themselves, they have been referred to as "Whitmans" ever since I have been collecting over 27 years ago. Maybe because many of them were in Whitman bags, but it is all sematics. Heck, I plead "guilty" for calling them "Whitmans", but it's just something that me and fellow collectors have been calling them for quite some time, as well Mile High Comics (for what it is worth),

 

And if you want confirmation that Mile High calls them Whitmans, just check this link

 

 

HOLY $%^&! Notice the Mile High considers ASM issue 165 a Whitman. Although, also notice that Mile High does NOT consider ASM issues 194, 195, 198, 199, 200, etc.. Whitmans. And indeed those issues, with the slashed UPC cover box, were also packaged in the Whitman 3-packs. It is as if Mile High and a few others of this thread share the same sentiment about blank cover boxes meaning they were Whitman-3pack-only comics.

 

Where are the people that have the Whitman 3-packs? Why are they not contributing to this thread? Someone must have a few with some early ASM issues in them. What is the hold up? I only have one and it has issue 199 in it.

 

Actually, they quit listing whitmans at 189.

Which happens to be the Feb 1979 issue.

There there is the March & April hiatus that was mentioned in earlier posts. (which according to this page only Shogun Warriors has the only known direct editions)

[howardhallis]

Check out the Shogun Warrior blank UPC covers and more "Whitmans" HERE.

[Nefaria]

I knew this would come to head some day. I'm going to fight my AAD and try and keep this straight.

 

First off I never liked these comics because they were different, and Ya I like so many others thought they were second printings. But I had to draw those conclusions by myself as there weren't any places to discuss such matters. I sure wish I would have kept some of them bagged so I could have posted the bags for arguments sake. The ones I disliked the most were the blank UPC box with diamond shaped price/issue icon. I bought most of them from K-Mart at reduced prices. I've got lots of them so if anybody wants a scan just let me know. It doesn't mention Whitman anywhere on the comic. But they were bagged as such. These Whitman's (Whitman's only used for describing said comics) came around 1978 and I always felt they were inferior to the newsstand issues. And had them on a list to upgrade ASAP to the standard style.

 

Direct comics did not come with the blank UPC or Diamond price areas. I started out a long time ago buying direct (1979), my first distributor I dealt with was Henry Pujol out of St. Louis, MO. I later dealt with Westfield Comics then with Mile High Comics. I probably switched to direct for the same reasons most people did. 7-11 bent comics or buying so many comics people would look funny at you while you were checking out (that always made me uncomfortable). I avoided all that by going direct.

 

IMHO, There are crazed people out there that want every variant (Ya , I feel it's a variant simply because it looks different) So the auctioneer is doing a justice to the informed collector who knows the difference in the variants. After all if your looking for one of those dreaded blank UPC issues he's helping you find them. The auction in question could have a sidebar that explains that while this comic is a variant it justifies no higher collector value than the standard issue. Now I’ve gotta add, if the supply isn’t there to support the demand to the informed collector, let the market value reflect that. If CGC ever see the difference in these comics (Probably mostly drawn to their attention by these threads) Maybe the OS Guide will one day recognize them.

 

Jeez I still don’t like them, uck

[Warlord]

Good thread though as I learned a lot. I am one of those Spidey freaks that must have EVERY distinguishing issue and thus this topis has been of great intrigue to me.

 

Yes, this thread has turned out pretty interesting...

 

So if I've got this straight, you would think that the earliest direct market (aka Whitman) issues are relatively scarcer than newstand issues. Over a period of years, that ratio should have been turned completely around until the newstand issues are HTF compared to direct issues. Do your Spidey collecting experiences make apparent to you when this reversal I've hypothesized had materialized? Specifically, what issues of Spidey are HTF in newstand versions? (Of course, Spidey sales for most of the title's run have been fairly significant, so I understand that even if fewer newstands exist, they could still exist in such numbers that you can pick them up easily... but is there a noticeable difference in availability at some point?

[Samruby]

Yes, Like I stated before, I remember the Shogun Warriors first three issues were packaged together in a 3-pack bag back then...I never bought it though, as I already had issue #1 and 2 at that point (I was only 13 years old and didn't have much of an allowance),

 

Also, I remember variants among variants in very very few cases within these bagged copies. An Avengers comic (w/ Count Nefaria I think was a pain) and like this.

 

These bags mostly had the "big books": ASM, FF, Cap, Hulk, Avengers, Iron Man, Thor, but also many Defenders, Conan, Spec, MTU, MTIO, Godzilla, and some of the then bi-monthlies such as DD, Dr. Strange, TOD, and Ghost Rider. I saw only one X-Men (the red issue on a castle or something - #104?), but then again I never liked the X-Men,

 

I also never liked the look of these comics, especially that Avengers (#161?) with all the ants on the cover, which I loved, but there was a look of "emptyness" with the blank UPC that just detracted from the overall art on the cover,

 

Obviously, it was the Spider-Man ones that I remember best,

 

Eric

[FFB]

To anyone interested, and for what it is worth:

 

I think that this is the point of argument now: Where there comics with distinguishing marks before the ones sold in the Whitman 3-packs? That is the question to be answered now I would think. As of now, I think it is safe to say that these distinguishing marks began with these Whitman 3-packs, until further notice, or hard proof...And then if one genuine copy showed up on e-bay, it sure as hell will go for some relatively good money.

 

Eric

 

Yes, I kinda agree. That appears to be the point now. But..... does anyone know which issue of ASM was sold in a Whitman 3-pack? I ask because there were newstand and direct editions of issue 165, as proved by the previously mentioned WWW site that featured a picture of 165. I think that issue was in FEB of 1977. There is further proof for issues 166-174 and so on. Also, notice that the site gives proof of issue 174 having a direct edition. It is the same copy, with blank cover box and diamond price, that was sold in Whitman 3-packs. To me, these two bits of info are enough to suggest that indeed there were comics with distinguishing marks before the ones sold in the Whitman 3-packs. I would love to have someone show me an original Whitman 3-pack with ASM issue 165 in it. That might make me change my mind although it would be hard to prove it was an original. Until that happens or some other new information arises, I am taking with me to the grave the idea that Whitman 3-packs simply carried direct market editions that had previously been released as such and are NOT variants.

 

Good thread though as I learned a lot. I am one of those Spidey freaks that must have EVERY distinguishing issue and thus this topis has been of great intrigue to me.

 

Too bad you didn't pull the trigger on my ASM#245 Bubblicious insert variant before I sold it at WonderCon.

 

I know who has it though. If you're still interested I could probably get it back for you.