How much new comic art is digital ?!?

[Columbia Comics]

I'm curious if Felix can explain how anyone would be able to just look at these redrawn digital pages and know immediately they are recreated pages?

 

unless its noted very visibly that these redrawn digital pieces are not from the ACTUAL produced comic book...I think this sets a terrible..TERRIBLE PRECEDENCE for future buying and reselling of this art if buyers do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these are not drawings directly from the comics.... but actual recreated pages.

 

On a slightly off topic side note.....I went through this with BLUE LINES years ago when no name inkers were inking and selling at comic shows as their inks over big name penciler's actual pencils and trying to get away with it....just sets a VERY bad precedence for our hobby "IF" future buyers cant tell immediately that these pieces are recreations.

 

So long as its noted very visibly that this art was not for production of the comic then its all fine I feel.

 

 

Not sure it sets a bad precedent Mike...what it would ultimately do is kill the market for resellers if your buyers cannot tell the difference between real and fake.

 

I would probably call this some sort of counterfeiting and would 100% avoid.

[Nexus]

I'm curious if Felix can explain how anyone would be able to just look at these redrawn digital pages and know immediately they are recreated pages?

 

unless its noted very visibly that these redrawn digital pieces are not from the ACTUAL produced comic book...I think this sets a terrible..TERRIBLE PRECEDENCE for future buying and reselling of this art if buyers do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these are not drawings directly from the comics.... but actual recreated pages.

 

On a slightly off topic side note.....I went through this with BLUE LINES years ago when no name inkers were inking and selling at comic shows as their inks over big name penciler's actual pencils and trying to get away with it....just sets a VERY bad precedence for our hobby "IF" future buyers cant tell immediately that these pieces are recreations.

 

So long as its noted very visibly that this art was not for production of the comic then its all fine I feel.

 

In the case of Nick Dragotta's EAST OF WEST art, there is no ambiguity, because we've made sure to disclose the process:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/newsdetail.asp?n=54&ti=A+note+about+EAST+OF+WEST+original+art%2E%2E%2E

 

The issue related to these pieces has as much to do with disclosure as anything else, IMO. But speaking of recreated art...as one of the biggest and most important dealers in the hobby, how do you feel about vintage art that's been recreated by a restorer? In most cases, the work is so good, no one would be able to tell. Should that work be disclosed or notated directly on the art?

 

For example, if in the cleaning/restoration of pieces, the restorer either completely re-inks, or RE-DRAWS, art on the board...isn't that now recreated art? Can this art still be considered from the "ACTUAL comic book"? Can this recreated art decades after publication still be considered "for production of the comic"?

 

Does the dealer who gets this work done have an obligation to disclose the facts to buyers?

 

Do you?

 

 

 

[Nexus]

Not sure it sets a bad precedent Mike...what it would ultimately do is kill the market for resellers if your buyers cannot tell the difference between real and fake.

 

I would probably call this some sort of counterfeiting and would 100% avoid.

 

The most perfect unintentionally ironic post I've ever seen.

 

We can agree to disagree, but IMO, art that's been recreated by a restorer is more fake/counterfeit than art that the original artist has redrawn on paper from digital art. Especially when the former isn't disclosed.

 

(In the latter case, I don't consider it "fake" or "counterfeit" at all, but again, YMMV.)

 

 

[Panelfan1]

At this years comic con Bill Sienkiewicz had a fanastic daredevil elektra cover (find it on caf). But from what i was told is that it was first done digitally for the comic

Later Bill painted it by hand and thats what he was selling. For me that info was enough to pass (given the price point for what I saw as a recreation)

[malvin]

At this years comic con Bill Sienkiewicz had a fanastic daredevil elektra cover (find it on caf). But from what i was told is that it was first done digitally for the comic

Later Bill painted it by hand and thats what he was selling. For me that info was enough to pass (given the price point for what I saw as a recreation)

 

Interesting, I did not know that Bill worked digitally at all.

 

Malvin

[Mighty Hal]

At this years comic con Bill Sienkiewicz had a fanastic daredevil elektra cover (find it on caf). But from what i was told is that it was first done digitally for the comic

Later Bill painted it by hand and thats what he was selling. For me that info was enough to pass (given the price point for what I saw as a recreation)

 

If Bill S. disclosed the info to his would-be buyers, I'd have no problem with it. If he didn't, then that feels a little shady, no matter how gorgeous the piece.

[SquareChaos]

Reading about how Nick sometimes does a page or cover for East of West non-digitally, it makes me wonder if him and other artists like him that work primarily digitally should experiment with pre-sells: maybe a splash and an interior page or two per issue could be done non-digitally and offered up for people to purchase site unseen. I'm certain people would line up to do it, I know I would, as there isn't really any other solid way to get a published page right now from a number of great series.

 

As a fan that still reads and loves modern comics, I'd really like to see such a compromise. I guess perhaps these recreations we've talked about here are viewed as that compromise, but as has previously been stated in this thread, we know that doesn't work for... well, maybe most of us? At least a good percentage of us anyway, right?

 

Would something like this be too risky for the buyer? Too risky for an artist not wanting to deal with complaints? Too much of an impact on the artistic process? Seen as too much crash commercialism? Of course, with a book as popular as East of West, Nick could just decide to do this without pre-selling as it's a near mortal lock that the pages would easily be moved, but for some other books that don't have quite the following maybe it would be a nice bit of security and a dependable secondary income source.

 

I don't know, maybe such things have even already been discussed to death and I'm just too newly arrived on the scene to know about it, but it's just a thought.

[Will_K]

Reading about how Nick sometimes does a page or cover for East of West non-digitally, it makes me wonder if him and other artists like him that work primarily digitally should experiment with pre-sells: maybe a splash and an interior page or two per issue could be done non-digitally and offered up for people to purchase site unseen. I'm certain people would line up to do it, I know I would, as there isn't really any other solid way to get a published page right now from a number of great series.

 

Does it make the originals more desirable ?

 

I think someone already mentioned that at least one artist will draw the cover and splashes on paper (panel pages would be digital).

 

An artist could also do that with "first appearances", "death of", etc.

 

It's up to the prospective buyers.

 

 

 

 

[alxjhnsn]

I'm curious if Felix can explain how anyone would be able to just look at these redrawn digital pages and know immediately they are recreated pages?

 

unless its noted very visibly that these redrawn digital pieces are not from the ACTUAL produced comic book...I think this sets a terrible..TERRIBLE PRECEDENCE for future buying and reselling of this art if buyers do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these are not drawings directly from the comics.... but actual recreated pages.

 

...

 

In the case of Nick Dragotta's EAST OF WEST art, there is no ambiguity, because we've made sure to disclose the process:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/newsdetail.asp?n=54&ti=A+note+about+EAST+OF+WEST+original+art%2E%2E%2E

 

...

Felix, someone that buys from you will understand, but when that person resells the piece, how will the next buyer know? Without a statement on the back, ambiguity will exist. Please consider a note on the back.

[alxjhnsn]

I do have an artist friend that says he plans to do some covers and significant scenes by hand with the rest of this book being digital because of the potential post publication sale of the OA.

[SquareChaos]

Reading about how Nick sometimes does a page or cover for East of West non-digitally, it makes me wonder if him and other artists like him that work primarily digitally should experiment with pre-sells: maybe a splash and an interior page or two per issue could be done non-digitally and offered up for people to purchase site unseen. I'm certain people would line up to do it, I know I would, as there isn't really any other solid way to get a published page right now from a number of great series.

 

Does it make the originals more desirable ?

 

I think someone already mentioned that at least one artist will draw the cover and splashes on paper (panel pages would be digital).

 

An artist could also do that with "first appearances", "death of", etc.

 

It's up to the prospective buyers.

 

 

 

 

I think you're missing what I mean - I'm saying that maybe they should create the pages to be published non-digitally, not recreate pages they created digitally that ended up being published.

[Will_K]

I understood your point.

 

 

[SquareChaos]

I understood your point.

 

 

Ok - then I don't understand what you mean.

[Matches_Malone]

I'm curious if Felix can explain how anyone would be able to just look at these redrawn digital pages and know immediately they are recreated pages?

 

unless its noted very visibly that these redrawn digital pieces are not from the ACTUAL produced comic book...I think this sets a terrible..TERRIBLE PRECEDENCE for future buying and reselling of this art if buyers do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these are not drawings directly from the comics.... but actual recreated pages.

 

...

 

In the case of Nick Dragotta's EAST OF WEST art, there is no ambiguity, because we've made sure to disclose the process:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/newsdetail.asp?n=54&ti=A+note+about+EAST+OF+WEST+original+art%2E%2E%2E

 

...

Felix, someone that buys from you will understand, but when that person resells the piece, how will the next buyer know? Without a statement on the back, ambiguity will exist. Please consider a note on the back.

 

The same goes for the covers that were drawn by Nick in pen/ink for publication, NOT digitally.

Let’s take these two examples.

 

East of West 27

 

East of West 29

 

Since there’s virtually no traditional pen/ink art available from EAST OF WEST to date. How do I know these covers were not originally drawn digitally for publication…or were they?

Something to keep track of as the years go by.

Im certainly not oppose to the idea of having a note indicating that the cover was originally drawn digitally for publication.

[Will_K]

I understood your point.

 

 

Ok - then I don't understand what you mean.

 

I thought you were suggesting that if an artist usually works digitally, they should "pre-sell" some original art on paper.

 

I was tying that to a previous post where someone mentioned that at least one artist draws the cover and splashes on paper (and the rest is digital). So, in theory, the artist is already doing what you suggested, although there may not be an actual buyer.

 

Then I was suggesting that the artist could further capitalize on the marketability of drawing select pages on paper (e.g. first appearances or death of).

 

 

 

 

[SquareChaos]

I understood your point.

 

 

Ok - then I don't understand what you mean.

 

I thought you were suggesting that if an artist usually works digitally, they should "pre-sell" some original art on paper.

 

I was tying that to a previous post where someone mentioned that at least one artist draws the cover and splashes on paper (and the rest is digital). So, in theory, the artist is already doing what you suggested, although there may not be an actual buyer.

 

Then I was suggesting that the artist could further capitalize on the marketability of drawing select pages on paper (e.g. first appearances or death of).

 

 

 

 

 

I think I follow now, thanks for the clarification.

 

 

I think the difference here is that, right now, I have no idea what prompts Nick to do non-digital work for East of West. If there was some program like I mentioned, then there'd be a predictable flow of pages coming out of the series, and it'd probably be documented somewhere as to which pages of the series were created in this way.

 

Prior to this thread I wasn't even aware that there were some number of interior pages that were non-digital, I thought there were just a handful of covers, so (at least for me) this could all be a little more clear.

 

I think we're on the same page with both of us suggesting some scenes be created non-digitally.

[fmaz]

I collect only Silver and Bronze... mainly because it's what I grew up with and I have more of a connection to those pages and those artists. As for the fact that the pages are drawn inked and lettered? I enjoy because I like having the full representation of the page itself... both for enjoyment of being on my wall and the sort of selfish idea of "owning" the whole page.

That being said? The point many people are making is completely valid.. those options simply won't exist and don't exist for certain things anymore, so wanting/wishing/being snobby about not having it for modern pages is irrelevant.... because it doesn't exist! So if you want modern art, either get on board with what DOES exist, or collect something else. That's the simple reality.

 

The debate over what DOESN'T exist reminds me of a quick story:

 

I was putting together a publicaion cover on deadline and we'd agreed on a series of posed photos as the main images. Just before going to press, one of the decision makers -- who was fully aware of every action shot we had (it was a sports publication) decided to reject the posed cover and instead said "What we really should do is have a cover with [action shot we don't have] and [action shot we also don't have]." It was long after the season had ended and the pictures they wanted didn't exist, couldn't exist and wouldn't exist... and all we were doing was wasting time talking about how much we wished they did exist.

 

That's sometimes what discusssion of modern OA reminds me of.

 

 

[SquareChaos]

I collect only Silver and Bronze... mainly because it's what I grew up with and I have more of a connection to those pages and those artists. As for the fact that the pages are drawn inked and lettered? I enjoy because I like having the full representation of the page itself... both for enjoyment of being on my wall and the sort of selfish idea of "owning" the whole page.

That being said? The point many people are making is completely valid.. those options simply won't exist and don't exist for certain things anymore, so wanting/wishing/being snobby about not having it for modern pages is irrelevant.... because it doesn't exist! So if you want modern art, either get on board with what DOES exist, or collect something else. That's the simple reality.

 

The debate over what DOESN'T exist reminds me of a quick story:

 

I was putting together a publicaion cover on deadline and we'd agreed on a series of posed photos as the main images. Just before going to press, one of the decision makers -- who was fully aware of every action shot we had (it was a sports publication) decided to reject the posed cover and instead said "What we really should do is have a cover with [action shot we don't have] and [action shot we also don't have]." It was long after the season had ended and the pictures they wanted didn't exist, couldn't exist and wouldn't exist... and all we were doing was wasting time talking about how much we wished they did exist.

 

That's sometimes what discusssion of modern OA reminds me of.

 

 

It should not be about what doesn't exist - we all know we can't somehow argue past issues that were fully digitally created into non-digital existence (despite talk of recreations). It's about why people do or do not choose to buy what they buy, and how the modern medium, as you correctly state, forces that choice. I think it's a good discussion to have, maybe some people who are in a position to do so can make choices of their own, influenced by the arguments raised in such discussions as these.

 

And anyway, at the root of most of these type of discussions is a positive driver - there are some people that would have liked the option to collect original art from some modern series, but they couldn't. Therefore, they'd prefer that not always be the case on whatever new hit series is around the corner. I view that as a positive thing.

[Nexus]

At this years comic con Bill Sienkiewicz had a fanastic daredevil elektra cover (find it on caf). But from what i was told is that it was first done digitally for the comic

Later Bill painted it by hand and thats what he was selling. For me that info was enough to pass (given the price point for what I saw as a recreation)

 

If Bill S. disclosed the info to his would-be buyers, I'd have no problem with it. If he didn't, then that feels a little shady, no matter how gorgeous the piece.

 

Yup. As long as something like this is disclosed, the buyer can make an informed decision.

 

But the concern that's been raised is, what happens down the road? Will the buyer who bought this directly from Bill, disclose its status to the next buyer?

 

Clearly, this situation is not limited to EoW art. Or, for that matter, Sienkiewicz art. This sort of thing is, like it or not, going to be a more common occurrence going forward. And, unlike those two examples, not all of it will be disclosed. I do believe that there will be a segment of collectors who will accept this reality, and the distinction will matter less over time. I also believe there will be a segment of collectors who won't accept this, and will walk away. However this ends up, the market will decide.

[Nexus]

Reading about how Nick sometimes does a page or cover for East of West non-digitally, it makes me wonder if him and other artists like him that work primarily digitally should experiment with pre-sells: maybe a splash and an interior page or two per issue could be done non-digitally and offered up for people to purchase site unseen. I'm certain people would line up to do it, I know I would, as there isn't really any other solid way to get a published page right now from a number of great series.

 

As a fan that still reads and loves modern comics, I'd really like to see such a compromise. I guess perhaps these recreations we've talked about here are viewed as that compromise, but as has previously been stated in this thread, we know that doesn't work for... well, maybe most of us? At least a good percentage of us anyway, right?

 

Would something like this be too risky for the buyer? Too risky for an artist not wanting to deal with complaints? Too much of an impact on the artistic process? Seen as too much crash commercialism? Of course, with a book as popular as East of West, Nick could just decide to do this without pre-selling as it's a near mortal lock that the pages would easily be moved, but for some other books that don't have quite the following maybe it would be a nice bit of security and a dependable secondary income source.

 

I don't know, maybe such things have even already been discussed to death and I'm just too newly arrived on the scene to know about it, but it's just a thought.

 

Believe me, I've suggested all this (and more) to Nick from the get-go. In the end, he has his working method; he's not wired to jump back-and-forth between traditional and digital while working on the book. It's too jarring for him. It's either one or the other.

 

There are things that make sense to me, but I'm also not an artist. Ultimately, what matters most is getting the book done. Having original art to sell is a low priority compared to that.

 

I believe, with the onset of digital art, that I was the first to suggest that artists who choose to produce comics digitally for speed, should strategically draw covers, splashes, and key pages traditionally for the original art market (this was mostly directed at Fiona Staples and SAGA). This, to me, is the most ideal compromise, to satisfy time demands, and also be able to generate additional income from art collectors. But not every artist cares about having an original art market. So...we just have to figure out whatever will work for each one. In Nick's case, this is what's working, for better or worse.