Marvel Mystery Canadian 128 Page Giant 1 1

[pemart1966]

As noted above though, he could have been getting the comics from two sources:

 

1.  On trains coming from the U.S.; and

2.  The newsstand in the Montreal train station itself...

[aardvark88]

I do have a pic of the MMC b/w 'annual's' pre-slabbing but the angle is useless in determining if the cover date stamp was 1945. If you squint at the ComicLink's pics of the cover it may say 'June 15, 1946,' instead of 1945. Either way, the page quality is above average.

[Ameri]

13 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

As noted above though, he could have been getting the comics from two sources:

 

1.  On trains coming from the U.S.; and

2.  The newsstand in the Montreal train station itself...

true true

[pemart1966]

21 hours ago, aardvark88 said:

I would agree that the MMC b/w 'annual' must have been fully authorized as printed in NYC. My copy distributed in Vancouver, BC  summer, 1945.  The Timely front  cover image is fairly clean and flat. Comic comes with a loose b/w Xerox of the last puzzle page that is missing, thus not married in the Cgc slab.

Please tell the story as to how you pinned it down to being distributed in Vancouver and during the summer of 1945.  I love hearing histories of books!

[Ameri]

Many years ago, I got into a Marvel Annual discussion with a very well known collector. Here is what he said

Despite popular opinion, (based on misinformation in the Overstreet
Guide), the Timely Annuals were not Canadian product. According to the
bottom of page one in one of my Annuals, it plainly states that the book
was made in the USA . New York to be specific. They were, however, only
marketed in Canada . Why?   Copyright protection.

No International law existed at that point in time protecting against
copyright infringement in second class publications, such as magazines
and comic books. Whereas stiff International penalties applied to more
erudite publications such as books, nothing yet was "on the books" to
prevent, say for example, a Canadian publishing house from reprinting,
(or fashioning new art & story) utilizing the characters and stories that
appeared in American comic books. Martin Goodman must have become concerned that Canadian Publishers might soon be selling Captain America comics (as well as other Timely
characters and titles), without feeling legally compelled to pay Goodman
one red cent.

In the USA there are two ways to protect or patent an idea you invent,
and thus prevent any skullduggerous characters from stealing your idea.
The legal way is by registering your idea with the US Dept of Patents. It
costs (or used to cost) around $500.00 to do so. The "back door" way,
(which may or may not stand-up in court), is to mail yourself (by
Registered Mail), schematics and descriptions of the item. The mail-piece
is dated, and theoretically, if someone rips-off your idea, your
presenting the sealed Registered article as evidence in court that you
had the idea first, then your contention may well stand up.

I believe that Martin in creating the Timely Annuals, used an approach
similar to the "back door Registry", because no "front door"
international comic character registry existed. So he took his most popular titles, Marvel Mystery & Captain America, (with a stable of his most popular characters appearing in both books),
put them all together in one book, thus protecting both those titles and
all the characters within, put a Cap #22 cover on one and a Marvel #33
cover on the other, and marketed the two annuals, (each containing a
Captain America & Marvel Mystery comic book that was reprinted in black &
white), in Canada before the characters and titles could be stolen by publishers north of the border.

He didn't have to produce a ton of these comics. He just had to be able
to show evidence that HIS item existed and was SOLD in Canada , prior to
any other Canadian company doing so. So unlike the Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly's and those "In House" titles like Double Action, the Annuals were actually SOLD on
newsstands...but just up in Canada!

We may never know how many pieces of each were manufactured, but due to
Goodman's renown as a skinflint, I assure you the print run was
miniscule. But I think for the most part, Martin Goodman's plan
succeeded. Yes, we may see an odd late 1940's Canadian Timely reprint
that slipped through the cracks. But those Canadian Publishers KNEW that
Martin KNEW what they were planning, and were scared by Martin's "Back
Door" registry, and didn't want to mess with him.

I feel the Timely Annuals are not only RARER than any comic ever
marketed, but they have a significant place in comic history as perhaps
"The Biggest Bluff That Ever Worked". There is no way that those two comics carry an accurate value in the Guide. 

 

[Ameri]

I used to have this copy. Bought it from a San Francisco dealer in the 90's. Can anyone identify "The Atomic Lab" stamp in the logo? 

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Ameri
correction needed

[aardvark88]

1 hour ago, pemart1966 said:

Please tell the story as to how you pinned it down to being distributed in Vancouver and during the summer of 1945.  I love hearing histories of books!

The MMC Timely 'annual' on ComicLink has a date stamp that says either June 15, 1945 or 1946. I found my copy at a Vancouver auction house from a local collector/consignor. A raw Capt America b/w 'annual' was brought in with a selection of other junkier raw Dell war/combat comics to a Langley, BC comic shop that was Cgc 2.5(?) and ComicLink auctioned for about $10,000 in Jan, 2017.

Ameri,

If your copy of MMC b/w 'annual' is missing back cover, it may be my buddy's old copy that he brought down from Victoria, BC to sell in San Fran, CA when he got married near there over 20 years ago, thus all Timely b/w copies originated from Canadian collections.

 

[Ameri]

1 hour ago, aardvark88 said:

The MMC Timely 'annual' on ComicLink has a date stamp that says either June 15, 1945 or 1946. I found my copy at a Vancouver auction house from a local collector/consignor. A raw Capt America b/w 'annual' was brought in with a selection of other junkier raw Dell war/combat comics to a Langley, BC comic shop that was Cgc 2.5(?) and ComicLink auctioned for about $10,000 in Jan, 2017.

Ameri,

If your copy of MMC b/w 'annual' is missing back cover, it may be my buddy's old copy that he brought down from Victoria, BC to sell in San Fran, CA when he got married near there over 20 years ago, thus all Timely b/w copies originated from Canadian collections.

 

Is your friend's name Will? I later sold that copy to Jamie Graham. Here's the original ad from around 1995 which was in CBM

 

[Bronty]

2 hours ago, Ameri said:

Many years ago, I got into a Marvel Annual discussion with a very well known collector. Here is what he said

Despite popular opinion, (based on misinformation in the Overstreet
Guide), the Timely Annuals were not Canadian product. According to the
bottom of page one in one of my Annuals, it plainly states that the book
was made in the USA . New York to be specific. They were, however, only
marketed in Canada . Why?   Copyright protection.

No International law existed at that point in time protecting against
copyright infringement in second class publications, such as magazines
and comic books. Whereas stiff International penalties applied to more
erudite publications such as books, nothing yet was "on the books" to
prevent, say for example, a Canadian publishing house from reprinting,
(or fashioning new art & story) utilizing the characters and stories that
appeared in American comic books. Martin Goodman must have become concerned that Canadian Publishers might soon be selling Captain America comics (as well as other Timely
characters and titles), without feeling legally compelled to pay Goodman
one red cent.

In the USA there are two ways to protect or patent an idea you invent,
and thus prevent any skullduggerous characters from stealing your idea.
The legal way is by registering your idea with the US Dept of Patents. It
costs (or used to cost) around $500.00 to do so. The "back door" way,
(which may or may not stand-up in court), is to mail yourself (by
Registered Mail), schematics and descriptions of the item. The mail-piece
is dated, and theoretically, if someone rips-off your idea, your
presenting the sealed Registered article as evidence in court that you
had the idea first, then your contention may well stand up.

I believe that Martin in creating the Timely Annuals, used an approach
similar to the "back door Registry", because no "front door"
international comic character registry existed. So he took his most popular titles, Marvel Mystery & Captain America, (with a stable of his most popular characters appearing in both books),
put them all together in one book, thus protecting both those titles and
all the characters within, put a Cap #22 cover on one and a Marvel #33
cover on the other, and marketed the two annuals, (each containing a
Captain America & Marvel Mystery comic book that was reprinted in black &
white), in Canada before the characters and titles could be stolen by publishers north of the border.

He didn't have to produce a ton of these comics. He just had to be able
to show evidence that HIS item existed and was SOLD in Canada , prior to
any other Canadian company doing so. So unlike the Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly's and those "In House" titles like Double Action, the Annuals were actually SOLD on
newsstands...but just up in Canada!

We may never know how many pieces of each were manufactured, but due to
Goodman's renown as a skinflint, I assure you the print run was
miniscule. But I think for the most part, Martin Goodman's plan
succeeded. Yes, we may see an odd late 1940's Canadian Timely reprint
that slipped through the cracks. But those Canadian Publishers KNEW that
Martin KNEW what they were planning, and were scared by Martin's "Back
Door" registry, and didn't want to mess with him.

I feel the Timely Annuals are not only RARER than any comic ever
marketed, but they have a significant place in comic history as perhaps
"The Biggest Bluff That Ever Worked". There is no way that those two comics carry an accurate value in the Guide. 

 

Doesn't add up.

If Canadian companies could just rip off US characters at will, why didn't they?    Why the eff would they bother coming up with all the original ideas they came up with when they could have just stolen at will (according to this)?

If there was no law against it, why did Anglo-American need to have a deal with Fawcett?   Fawcett provided scripts to AA, and AA had Canadian artists redraw them, so that they could be called "Canadian comics" for purposes of the WECA legislation.    If they could just steal characters at will, why is any of that necessary?

Its an interesting angle he's presented but its at best an incomplete answer with some critical info missing.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bronty

[aardvark88]

Ameri,

I don't even recall seeing that ad with the MMC b/w 'annual', and I bought most of the CBM's back then. Wow, $2,500 was a lot of loot back then in 1995 (22 years ago) for a rare comic that seems to have the all white back cover but included a Xerox of the last puzzle page.  My buddy's name was not Will.

[Ameri]

1 hour ago, aardvark88 said:

Ameri,

I don't even recall seeing that ad with the MMC b/w 'annual', and I bought most of the CBM's back then. Wow, $2,500 was a lot of loot back then in 1995 (22 years ago) for a rare comic that seems to have the all white back cover but included a Xerox of the last puzzle page.  My buddy's name was not Will.

I find that a lot of prices were high in the 90's, almost the same price you'd pay on certain books today. The MM and Cap Annuals never surfaced back then so the dealer knew he could charge a lot.  

[Ameri]

3 hours ago, Bronty said:

Doesn't add up.

If Canadian companies could just rip off US characters at will, why didn't they?    Why the eff would they bother coming up with all the original ideas they came up with when they could have just stolen at will (according to this)?

If there was no law against it, why did Anglo-American need to have a deal with Fawcett?   Fawcett provided scripts to AA, and AA had Canadian artists redraw them, so that they could be called "Canadian comics" for purposes of the WECA legislation.    If they could just steal characters at will, why is any of that necessary?

Its an interesting angle he's presented but its at best an incomplete answer with some critical info missing.

 

 

It's a mystery, but we also had the 15 cent DC books that only lasted a little while. Wonder why so brief unless it was a way to protect a copyright? MM and Cap were Timely's flagship titles. Interesting that only those two titles and not other Timelys wound up as "annuals" in Canada. 

https://comicbookrealm.com/topic/8/21678/golden-age-15-cent-variants

[Bronty]

1 hour ago, Ameri said:

It's a mystery, but we also had the 15 cent DC books that only lasted a little while. Wonder why so brief unless it was a way to protect a copyright? MM and Cap were Timely's flagship titles. Interesting that only those two titles and not other Timelys wound up as "annuals" in Canada. 

https://comicbookrealm.com/topic/8/21678/golden-age-15-cent-variants

Those variants have nothing to do with copyright.   Those 15c books are pre WECA / pre 1941 during the time when US comics could be sold here.

(Marvel and DC comics WERE sold here before 1941.   You can find Superman 1 (1939) in a Cdn collection (see nova scotia pedigree).    Superman 14 (1942) you cannot.)

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bronty

[Bronty]

As to why those 15c variants only lasted for the four months right before 1941, the obvious answer is that starting 1941 they could no longer be sold in canada due to WECA, hence no variant.

I.e. WECA comes along four months after those variants begin, and makes it illegal to sell US books in canada at all, hence no Cdn copies and no Cdn variant.   

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bronty

[Bronty]

Also, if this was really to copyright their most famous characters, why no Cdn batman annuals?  Superman annuals?   Submariner?   Donald duck?    Mickey Mouse?

Copyright might be part of the story but if so there much much more to the story, because if the truth was that simple then every publisher with an IP worth protecting would have done the exact same thing and we'd have all sorts of such annuals or other such evidence of placeholder copyright.

The overemphasis on the 'tiny' print run is another bone I have to pick.    For a 25c book sold in canada only, if that's what it is, the number of copies extant is perfectly reasonable and as expected.   Rare, yes.   But that's got a lot more to do with our population base and the higher cover price than any print run numbers being manipulated.     25c books, from world war 2 canada, exist in tiny, tiny numbers whether that's these annuals or any other books that fit that mold.    From that POV, the number of copies remaining is not in the least unusual.

Another more practical possibility might be that Goodman saw the end of the war coming (if a 1945 stamp) or it had already ended (1946..) and he saw a good size market being opened back up to him again.    These 'annuals' may have been a test for sales numbers of his product in canada, or trying to cement a distribution deal with partners in canada, or who knows what.    But to me... the very date of the books... end of the war... suggests more that Goodman is looking at market opportunities here.   Speculation on my part, yes, but to me that's a more convincing explanation than copyright because if there were truly zero laws for copyright protection available to the american publisher, we would have seen many more books such as this sold on Canadian soil, to protect various publishers' IPs.  

Thoughts?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bronty

[Bronty]

7 hours ago, Ameri said:

Many years ago, I got into a Marvel Annual discussion with a very well known collector. Here is what he said

 According to the
bottom of page one in one of my Annuals, it plainly states that the book
was made in the USA . New York to be specific. 

 

For the record, it does not say that, per the pictures above.   It says "copyrighted" by a New York house, not "made" in New York.

It would have been illegal to sell in Canada at the time if it was made in New York.

[pemart1966]

54 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Also, if this was really to copyright their most famous characters, why no Cdn batman annuals?  Superman annuals?   Submariner?   Donald duck?    Mickey Mouse?

Copyright might be part of the story but if so there much much more to the story, because if the truth was that simple then every publisher with an IP worth protecting would have done the exact same thing and we'd have all sorts of such annuals or other such evidence of placeholder copyright.

The overemphasis on the 'tiny' print run is another bone I have to pick.    For a 25c book sold in canada only, if that's what it is, the number of copies extant is perfectly reasonable and as expected.   Rare, yes.   But that's got a lot more to do with our population base and the higher cover price than any print run numbers being manipulated.     25c books, from world war 2 canada, exist in tiny, tiny numbers whether that's these annuals or any other books that fit that mold.    From that POV, the number of copies remaining is not in the least unusual.

Another more practical possibility might be that Goodman saw the end of the war coming (if a 1945 stamp) or it had already ended (1946..) and he saw a good size market being opened back up to him again.    These 'annuals' may have been a test for sales numbers of his product in canada, or trying to cement a distribution deal with partners in canada, or who knows what.    But to me... the very date of the books... end of the war... suggests more that Goodman is looking at market opportunities here.   Speculation on my part, yes, but to me that's a more convincing explanation than copyright because if there were truly zero laws for copyright protection available to the american publisher, we would have seen many more books such as this sold on Canadian soil, to protect various publishers' IPs.  

Thoughts?

 I had exactly the same thought this afternoon.  Marvel Comics/Marvel Mystery Comics (MMC) were quite likely sold in Canada right up until issue 15 or 16.  The date that the WECA (War Exchange Conservation Act) came into effect was December 6, 1940 meaning that any comic with mmm a February 1941 cover date or so and beyond would not be allowed to enter Canada.  Doubtful then that Captain America #1 made it here.

If Goodman indeed sold the first 15 or so MMC here in Canada as well as the rest of the Timely line cover dated prior to Feb '41 then he must have had a pretty good idea as to the sales figures of those books here.  Along comes the WECA cutting off not necessarily a lucrative market but probably a pretty good market nonetheless.

As the war showed signs of ending, Goodman might well have decided to test the market again here circa '45 or '46 as well as acquaint or re-acquaint the kids with characters that they hadn't seen in several years.  He may have decided to make his product stand out by bulking it up to 128 pages and charging 25c for it thereby making it stand out on two counts.  Are these 2 books larger in dimension than a regular comic of this era?  If so, that's a third characteristic that would have made them stand out.  He went cheap on the contents (B & W reprints) and the print run was small enough that he could live with it.  As well, I suspect that these 2 books were released if not at the same time then very close to each other.

The WECA was repealed in stages apparently after the war and I don't think that Timely ever got back into the Canadian market with just US printed books did they?  I know that they had a run in the late 40s of Canadian printed Timely books...

All purely conjecture on my part but I don't see any other story line that makes sense...

 

[Bronty]

11 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

 I had exactly the same thought this afternoon.  Marvel Comics/Marvel Mystery Comics (MMC) were quite likely sold in Canada right up until issue 15 or 16.  The date that the WECA (War Exchange Conservation Act) came into effect was December 6, 1940 meaning that any comic with mmm a February 1941 cover date or so and beyond would not be allowed to enter Canada.  Doubtful then that Captain America #1 made it here.

If Goodman indeed sold the first 15 or so MMC here in Canada as well as the rest of the Timely line cover dated prior to Feb '41 then he must have had a pretty good idea as to the sales figures of those books here.  Along comes the WECA cutting off not necessarily a lucrative market but probably a pretty good market nonetheless.

As the war showed signs of ending, Goodman might well have decided to test the market again here circa '45 or '46 as well as acquaint or re-acquaint the kids with characters that they hadn't seen in several years.  He may have decided to make his product stand out by bulking it up to 128 pages and charging 25c for it thereby making it stand out on two counts.  Are these 2 books larger in dimension than a regular comic of this era?  If so, that's a third characteristic that would have made them stand out.  He went cheap on the contents (B & W reprints) and the print run was small enough that he could live with it.  As well, I suspect that these 2 books were released if not at the same time then very close to each other.

The WECA was repealed in stages apparently after the war and I don't think that Timely ever got back into the Canadian market with just US printed books did they?  I know that they had a run in the late 40s of Canadian printed Timely books...

All purely conjecture on my part but I don't see any other story line that makes sense...

 

Good thoughts.    

As for late 1940s Timely's, I don't think so but am not positive.   Certainly most (all?) late timely's that are Canadian are distinguishable as such.  

My mind turns to the copy of The Witness (timely, 1948) in the Vancouver Pedigree.    I don't recall that being a Cdn edition of any kind.    Does anyone have a picture of it from when it was sold?

If its indistinguishable from US copies, then that would be interesting.    If distinguishable as Cdn, that would suggest what you said in bold may be true.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Bronty

[pemart1966]

Hi aardvark88 - as the consignor, could you ask clink to send you a biiiiig jpeg of the front cover so that we can try to identify the year on the date stamp?

[pemart1966]

8 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Good thoughts.    

As for late 1940s Timely's, I don't think so but am not positive.   Certainly most (all?) late timely's that are Canadian are distinguishable as such.  

My mind turns to the copy of The Witness (timely, 1948) in the Vancouver Pedigree.    I don't recall that being a Cdn edition of any kind.    Does anyone have a picture of it from when it was sold?

If its indistinguishable from US copies, then that would be interesting.    If distinguishable as Cdn, that would suggest what you said in bold may be true.

Here's the link to the Vancouver Witness #1 https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/witness-1-vancouver-pedigree-marvel-1948-cgc-nm-94-white-pages/a/830-91202.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

Vancouver is within spitting distance to the US border so it could be possible that a trip to the US or visiting relatives there might have accounted for it being (I assume) the US version...

Edited February 26, 2017 by pemart1966