Jim Starlin hates CGC! 3 3

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

He'd ask if you worked for CGC in the first 10 secs....

[jcjames]

33 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Either you don't really understand the mechanics of the SS market, or you don't understand the impact of those mechanics.

Allow me to explain:

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You don't need to explain, I understand completely - I went on a long diatribe in the other thread detailing exactly what you're saying, how much cost, work, effort, experience and risk the customer puts in in order create value out of a SS book - to which getting the artist's signature obviously is a part of.

This is becoming a repeat of that thread - and I don't really see a disagreement here.

The focus is more on Starlin being yet another example of an artist who doesn't really understand CGC SS.

[F For Fake]

On 5/14/2017 at 11:59 AM, ComicConnoisseur said:

They get plenty of free publicity when they go to these cons. That should be their payment.

It doesn't look right when a millionaire creator who got rich off these fans than double dips and charges these same fans for his autograph.

Like I said most of these artists/writers are not having their doors knocked down for current work, and should appreciate that they still have some fans left that want to line up for hours to meet them.

If artists/writers got together and said in unison that from now on we will give back to the fans with giving free autographs.

The interest in them would go off the charts!

It would be a good-will win situation for the fans and creators long-term.

 

 

 

I would respectfully suggest that the number of "millionaire creators" out there is pretty slim.  We could probably count them on two hands. Most of the guys out there at shows, especially the old timers, barely scraped by. I don't do SS personally, but if I did, I'd have no problem chucking in $5 or $10 or whatever, because the thing that is making a SS book valuable is the signature. The creator should definitely get a piece of that pie.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, jcjames said:

You don't need to explain, I understand completely - I went on a long diatribe in the other thread detailing exactly what you're saying, how much cost, work, effort, experience and risk the customer puts in in order create value out of a SS book - to which getting the artist's signature obviously is a part of.

 

I still think you're missing the fundamental issue. 

It's not about the cost, work, effort, experience, and risk, though those things are, indeed, factors that are involved, and which really don't concern a creator (nor should they.)

It's about the underlying value of the item being signed, which is entirely dependent on its condition.

That,  far and above every other consideration, is the prime driver in this theoretical "profit" these creators think they're being "robbed" of. 

I have Starlin "duds." I got Starlin signed books that no one wants (anyone want to give me a "profit" for my 9.6 Batman #415...?) No one is going to pay me any sort of profit for those books.

I don't go to Starlin and demand a refund because I didn't make a profit. That's not his concern...it's mine. But neither then should Starlin come to me and demand a premium, above and beyond what he charges others, for his faulty perception about how his signature is being used.

And I love Starlin. I have a couple of hundred Starlin signed books, which are the pride of my collection. I have runs of Warlock, Captain Marvel, Infinity Gauntlet, and Batman. I've loved his work for a very long time. And none of that matters to Starlin, nor should it matter. 

If we're talking about "profit", let's lay everything on the table, and make sure everyone understands exactly what is going on. Let everyone make the decision eyes wide open, rather than rely on misperceptions and creator butthurt over those misperceptions. I guarantee you, if a creator understood the issue...and I also guarantee you that a LOT of facilitators don't bother to explain this to them, because it would hurt their "access"...they promise the $$$$ to these creators, which further creates these problems...it's not coming out of THEIR pockets, after all...but if a creator understood this, they wouldn't feel so "taken advantage of."

And it is my belief that the vast majority of creators...if they understood these issues...would be more willing to work with people on a basis that all parties involved would consider fair. It's not about "they can do whatever they want." That's true, for the most part, and that's not what anyone is arguing. The argument is "if they understood the issues, they might be less hostile to the process." That's the only point I'm making.

After all, these are creators who are used to dealing with these sorts of issues with publishers, when far, far more is at stake for them.

Edited May 15, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[jjonahjameson11]

2 hours ago, joeypost said:

Mr. Starlin can do whatever he likes with his pricing, and who he chooses to do business with, its really that simple.  While unfortunate, it is usually the little things that tend to get people going, and in this case it was the straw that broke the camels back for a creator I was actively getting books together to get signed by. Lots of losers in this scenario.

This!

[kav]

Will someone tell these creators their sigs would be more desired if they were attractive.  Compare Frazetta and Steranko to Starlin for example.

[revat]

6 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

 

I would respectfully suggest that the number of "millionaire creators" out there is pretty slim.  We could probably count them on two hands. Most of the guys out there at shows, especially the old timers, barely scraped by. I don't do SS personally, but if I did, I'd have no problem chucking in $5 or $10 or whatever, because the thing that is making a SS book valuable is the signature. The creator should definitely get a piece of that pie.

 

 

But why do you think the sig makes the comic that much more valuable? Are you sure it does?   After all the stuff (costs) that goes into it, for the most part value is ONLY added if the grade hits 9.8 (certainly lower for some older comics), but the vast majority of CGC SS are copper/modern.  Just because the raw is $5 and someone lists a CGC SS for $100 on the bay doesn't mean the CGC SS is actually worth $100.

Does it cost more to buy a CGC SS comic on ebay than a raw comic of equivalent grade? Yes generally.  But what is the marginal value of the signature?  More aptly, what is the marginal value increase over a blue label of the same grade vs a yellow label for that artist?  How much more is it consistently?

 

The question of whether or not anyone minds paying historically underpaid creators some amount of money is A COMPLETELY SEPERATE ARGUMENT to how much value the average signature adds with regards to CGC SS.

 

Should your grocery store charge more to restaurant owners since they're going to be making more money off of the food?  Should they charge even more to the really expensive restaurants?  Of course fresh quality veggies are important, but isn't wouldn't the quality and fame of the chef be the larger driver of the end pricing and value?

[kav]

9 minutes ago, revat said:

 

Should your grocery store charge more to restaurant owners since they're going to be making more money off of the food?  Should they charge even more to the really expensive restaurants?  Of course fresh quality veggies are important, but isn't wouldn't the quality and fame of the chef be the larger driver of the end pricing and value?

Should they charge less or free if restaurant is failing?  Should art supply stores charge more for paper-much more if famous artist is buying?  Shouldn't everyone be charged based on how much money they have?  Millionaire- a big mack is $42,000.  Homeless guy-10 for a penny.

Edited May 15, 2017 by kav

[1Cool]

I think you could explain the principal of SS series and why it does not increase the price on most books until you are blue in the face and the guys that charge are not going to listen or change their policy.  They see CGC people as people who are willing to pay big money to get a book encapsulated so why wouldn't those people have an extra $20 for a signature?  I think most would be happy charging $20 for a signature to everybody but they know their lines would be empty if they charged $20.  It's a cash grab from people they think can afford it which they have every right to do but don't sugar coat the reasoning.

[RockMyAmadeus]

24 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

 

I don't do SS personally, but if I did, I'd have no problem chucking in $5 or $10 or whatever, because the thing that is making a SS book valuable is the signature. The creator should definitely get a piece of that pie.

 

That isn't accurate, and that's the very misunderstanding that is causing this conflict. The thing that is making an SS book valuable is its condition, not the signature. The signature only amplifies the value that already exists, if any.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, 1Cool said:

I think you could explain the principal of SS series and why it does not increase the price on most books until you are blue in the face and the guys that charge are not going to listen or change their policy.  They see CGC people as people who are willing to pay big money to get a book encapsulated so why wouldn't those people have an extra $20 for a signature?  I think most would be happy charging $20 for a signature to everybody but they know their lines would be empty if they charged $20.  It's a cash grab from people they think can afford it which they have every right to do but don't sugar coat the reasoning.

Why not? Are creators stupid? Incapable of understanding? This isn't a difficult concept for most people. I explained it in a couple of paragraphs. Creators are, usually, businesspeople too. They understand these things, when they understand the details.

Even Rob Liefeld...no mental giant...understands that New Mutants #87 and #98 are generally worth more than #92 or #97, and charges a premium for them. It's messy, and not quite accurate, but it's a start. 

[1Cool]

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That isn't accurate, and that's the very misunderstanding that is causing this conflict. The thing that is making an SS book valuable is its condition, not the signature. The signature only amplifies the value that already exists, if any.

Just looked at GPA for the Tales Teen Titan 44 you mentioned earlier and you are 100% correct.  A CGC 9.8 SS does go for $130 more which is worthwhile even after considering SS cost increases.  But a CGC 9.6 had a $71 increase which still is a slight increase after SS cost but nothing huge.  Anything lower then 9.6 the SS designation was either slightly higher or in some cases less than the non signed copy.  So the signature had no value unless paired with the ultra high grade designation.  Why is that?  The regular 9.8 is fairly rare but when you factor in the extra rarity of a signed high grade the price jumps up?

I've found I do not have the patience to get books signed let along go thru the SS hassle so it's interesting to see how the process works for you guys that get books signed/graded.

Edited May 15, 2017 by 1Cool

[Logan510]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That isn't accurate, and that's the very misunderstanding that is causing this conflict. The thing that is making an SS book valuable is its condition, not the signature. The signature only amplifies the value that already exists, if any.

How are you able to scrape by making your living off of SS books? It's a miracle.

 

[kav]

3 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Just looked at GPA for the Tales Teen Titan 44 you mentioned earlier and you are 100% correct.  A CGC 9.8 SS does go for $130 more which is worthwhile even after considering SS cost increases.  But a CGC 9.6 had a $71 increase which still is a slight increase after SS cost but nothing huge.  Anything lower then 9.6 the SS designation was either slightly higher or in some cases less than the non signed copy.  So the signature had no value unless paired with the ultra high grade designation.  Why is that?  The regular 9.8 is fairly rare but when you factor in the extra rarity of a signed high grade the price jumps up?

It really sucks there's an impetus to damage the highest grade books.  Future collectors will shake their head in dismay at all the writing on covers and glom on to the untouched 9.8s.

[seanfingh]

13 minutes ago, kav said:

It really sucks there's an impetus to damage the highest grade books.  Future collectors will shake their head in dismay at all the writing on covers and glom on to the untouched 9.8s.

 

A lot of future collectors will.  Particularly the OCD ones, which are in ample supply in this hobby. 

However, not all of them will, because there always have been and there always will be collectors who appreciate the fact that there is an enduring connection via signature between the art and the artist.  They will seek out certified autographed copies.

 

[jcjames]

52 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

I have Starlin "duds." I got Starlin signed books that no one wants (anyone want to give me a "profit" for my 9.6 Batman #415...?) No one is going to pay me any sort of profit for those books.

I don't go to Starlin and demand a refund because I didn't make a profit. That's not his concern...it's mine. But neither then should Starlin come to me and demand a premium, above and beyond what he charges others, for his faulty perception about how his signature is being used.

I completely agree.  That was also my point in my post from the other thread. If the artist is not interested in understanding my items #1-12, then he shouldn't be interested in #13 either.

I think you'd also agree that if the artist understood #1-12, the wouldn't be so buthurt about #13.

What I'm hearing from you is that the artist SHOULD better understand all what goes into the SS process and market and maybe they wouldn't be looking sideways at fans with CGC witnesses or automatically charging a premium.

 

Quote

And it is my belief that the vast majority of creators...if they understood these issues...would be more willing to work with people on a basis that all parties involved would consider fair. It's not about "they can do whatever they want." That's true, for the most part, and that's not what anyone is arguing. The argument is "if they understood the issues, they might be less hostile to the process." That's the only point I'm making.

 

And again I agree.

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by jcjames

[jcjames]

 

I think it would be HILARIOUS if you brought some of your Starlin SS duds to him and said you want a refund because his signature didn't add any value to your 9.6 Bat

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, jcjames said:

This is what I posted in the last discussion regarding artists charging extra for SS-signatures and I still stand by it:

I call them "greedy" only as half-poke, half-truth.

If an artist charges $5 for an unwitnessed signature and $20 for a CGC-witnessed signature, I see it as A) artist trying to limit people selling his signature for profit of which he gets none, and/or B) artist figuring his 1.5 seconds of time to scribble his name is actually worth more to people who slab books regardless of what they do with those slabs.

Bottomline, an artist is trying to squeeze as much money from people in his line as possible to maximize HIS profits. Which I have no problem with. Some folks call Capitalists like that who try to maximize their profits as being "greedy", especially used when talking about flippers, but not so much when talking about artists themselves. I see no difference. And that's okay. 

Artists don't "HAVE" to charge for sigs just because some of those sigs end up on ebay, but they can, and so they will.

 

 

ETA: It's an "value-added". An unverified signature adds virtually no value to a comic, but a CGC-witnessed signature DOES add significant value (relative to unverified signature) to the comic. So since the artist is adding significant value to your book (regardless of what you intend to do with it) then he may figure he should charge more for adding that extra value to your book. 

 

COULD add significant value. Because of what CGC charges, not always and if it ends up 9.6 or less, not at ALL. 

So perhaps the artist needs to start charging CGC for their signatures?

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, RCheli said:

I agree that he's somewhat to blame, BUT the response by CGC seemed to be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Have someone at CGC pay Starlin the $20 or $40 or whatever, and then contact the person directly and get reimbursed for the unpaid signatures. That person's name would remain anonymous to anyone outside of CGC, and Starlin would get paid. 

CGC didnt need to pay anyone, all they had to do was contact the guy for Jim. 

Real SIMPLE customer service. 

Real COMMON courtesy. 

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, jcjames said:

You don't need to explain, I understand completely - I went on a long diatribe in the other thread detailing exactly what you're saying, how much cost, work, effort, experience and risk the customer puts in in order create value out of a SS book - to which getting the artist's signature obviously is a part of.

This is becoming a repeat of that thread - and I don't really see a disagreement here.

The focus is more on Starlin being yet another example of an artist who doesn't really understand CGC SS.

Nor will he or really care to. Most creators have always seen the obsessive collector as a bit odd and flipper as bad news.

I understand what RMA is saying but... I just don't think it will make a difference with all of this water under the bridge. 

This is education that should've happened a long time ago. 

Creators are now seeing CGC as the step child of the hobby and even one the PUBLISHERS has joined in!!!

Next move is CGC's.