Inks by Neal or Giordano? 0

[alxjhnsn]

I too would be happy to have Adams/Adams, Adams/Palmer, and Adams/Giordano pages. I'll agree that Adams/Adams was consistently excellent though those Adams/Palmer Avenger pages make my heart to pitter-patter.

[jaeldubyoo]

I'm partial to Tom Palmer's inking of Adams' pencils. Not only did he do a great job on Adams' Avengers work, but also on Adams' X-Men run.

[Rick2you2]

15 hours ago, comix4fun said:

It's kind of hard to describe but, as they went along and especially by 72-74, Neal's inks were "organic" if I had to pick a word to describe it. They were a little looser and more free and it seemed Giordano had a little more tightness to it. But the difference wasn't huge. The two best inkers on Adams' pencils were Neal and Giordano. And it can be from issue to issue or page to page when you compare them side by side as to which one was more effective. 

Most of the pages I've seen with Neal inks seems to feel more loose and organic if I was forced to describe it. 

I'm thinking this whole subject deserves a its own thread. 

[PhilipB2k17]

9 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

Since we're throwing opinions out about best inker combo's on Neal Adams, I'd give the edge to Adams inking himself, and for me it's not even close (on average).  I think sometimes the art in context with the storylines informs the perception, impact and nostalgia of the relative quality of the art, so I'm just talking about the technical merits of the work.  Even with that caveat, there is a bunch of Adams/Giordano and Adams/Palmer art I'd KILL for.     That said, I think Adams on Adams was more consistently on point.  Adams was not only his own best inker, he was a pretty terrific inker on other guys too like Gil Kane, John Buscema, Rich Buckler, Alan Weiss, etc.  Again, you know what they say about opinions and a**holes, so there ya go.  

That's interesting. I once had an artist acquaintance, who is a published comic artist - and also a big Adams fan - tell me that he wished Adams didn't ink his own stuff. He wasn't a fan of it.

Edited February 16, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[delekkerste]

7 hours ago, jaeldubyoo said:

I'm partial to Tom Palmer's inking of Adams' pencils. Not only did he do a great job on Adams' Avengers work, but also on Adams' X-Men run.

Palmer made everyone look their best.   

I think there is a certain romance to believing that top pencillers are also their own best inkers.  In some cases, it is true.  In others, it is not.  I'm not convinced that Adams was his own best inker, though, there's certainly a better case for it than, say, John Buscema being his own best inker (IMO, Big John would struggle to make the top 5 list of his best inkers).  

[PhilipB2k17]

5 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Palmer made everyone look their best.   

I think there is a certain romance to believing that top pencillers are also their own best inkers.  In some cases, it is true.  In others, it is not.  I'm not convinced that Adams was his own best inker, though, there's certainly a better case for it than, say, John Buscema being his own best inker (IMO, Big John would struggle to make the top 5 list of his best inkers).  

Big John's little brother, Sal, may have been his best inker.

[PhilipB2k17]

5 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Palmer made everyone look their best.   

I think there is a certain romance to believing that top pencillers are also their own best inkers.  In some cases, it is true.  In others, it is not.  I'm not convinced that Adams was his own best inker, though, there's certainly a better case for it than, say, John Buscema being his own best inker (IMO, Big John would struggle to make the top 5 list of his best inkers).  

I have a Paul Ryan/Tom Palmer Avengers page. I'm not sure it was a great combo.

[delekkerste]

17 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I have a Paul Ryan/Tom Palmer Avengers page. I'm not sure it was a great combo.

OK, let me amend that:  Palmer, in his prime, made everyone look their best.  

[Bat34]

I've always loved Neal...my favorite artist, met him last year and had him do this commission, I really am happy with it, and he couldn't have been nicer.

[Rick2you2]

11 hours ago, Bat34 said:

I've always loved Neal...my favorite artist, met him last year and had him do this commission, I really am happy with it, and he couldn't have been nicer.

Adams can be very nice, and he has a wicked sense of humor. He really did "pull himself up by his bootstraps" and deserves credit for it (along with help he has given to other artists).

He is also the only artist I have met who signed someone's sneaker for $10. 

 

[Lago32]

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents...

- Adams was his own best inker.......early in his comic career (64-71)....after that his inks became too loose, scratchy, and "rushed" for lack of a better word. As I've said many times before on this board, imo 1969 was Neal's apex.

- Palmer was his second best inker......again, early in their collaboration....specifically X-men #56-62-ish. Don't get me wrong, their entire X-men collaboration was killer, however, as the run progressed, more and more Palmer started to show through in the inks which for me, just wasn't as desirable. This same situation happened with Palmer's first classic run with Buscema on Avengers....the early issues #74-76 were perfect.....Buscema's pencils were perfectly inked by Palmer....but then after these issues, again, more and more Palmer started to show through. I'm not sure whether the artists in both cases started gaining confidence in Palmer's ability so they gave him looser pencils or maybe Palmer gained more confidence and started exerting himself more into the art. And as it relates to Adams and Palmer's run on Avengers, obviously it is classic stuff but while #93 is excellent, I feel that #94-96 had Palmer again showing through too much in the art.

- Giordano was his third best inker.....opposite to Palmer, Giordano's early collaborations with Adams (during the Detective run and definitely during the World's Finest issues 175 and 176), were not as strong as their later work together. I actually spoke with Neal about this at a Con here in Toronto a few years back and Adams was pretty vocal with Giordano's efforts during this time...the inks watered down the pencils too much, too broad and not as precise as Neal had intended. By the time they got to their second Batman run on the core Batman title, Giordano was much tighter and truer to Adams's pencils. This is evident in what I feel was their best work together - on the werewolf issue...Batman #255 and of course a few years later on the Superman/Ali story.

As a side-note, I have to say that Neal's pencil work is probably his best work imo.....so organic and textured. Having owned some of the unbelievable pages where he provided pencils-only (GLGA 87 for example), it is almost a shame that they are inked-over 99% of the time.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Lago32

[stinkininkin]

22 hours ago, Lago32 said:

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents...

- Adams was his own best inker.......early in his comic career (64-71)....after that his inks became too loose, scratchy, and "rushed" for lack of a better word. As I've said many times before on this board, imo 1969 was Neal's apex.

- Palmer was his second best inker......again, early in their collaboration....specifically X-men #56-62-ish. Don't get me wrong, their entire X-men collaboration was killer, however, as the run progressed, more and more Palmer started to show through in the inks which for me, just wasn't as desirable. This same situation happened with Palmer's first classic run with Buscema on Avengers....the early issues #74-76 were perfect.....Buscema's pencils were perfectly inked by Palmer....but then after these issues, again, more and more Palmer started to show through. I'm not sure whether the artists in both cases started gaining confidence in Palmer's ability so they gave him looser pencils or maybe Palmer gained more confidence and started exerting himself more into the art. And as it relates to Adams and Palmer's run on Avengers, obviously it is classic stuff but while #93 is excellent, I feel that #94-96 had Palmer again showing through too much in the art.

- Giordano was his third best inker.....opposite to Palmer, Giordano's early collaborations with Adams (during the Detective run and definitely during the World's Finest issues 175 and 176), were not as strong as their later work together. I actually spoke with Neal about this at a Con here in Toronto a few years back and Adams was pretty vocal with Giordano's efforts during this time...the inks watered down the pencils too much, too broad and not as precise as Neal had intended. By the time they got to their second Batman run on the core Batman title, Giordano was much tighter and truer to Adams's pencils. This is evident in what I feel was their best work together - on the werewolf issue...Batman #255 and of course a few years later on the Superman/Ali story.

As a side-note, I have to say that Neal's pencil work is probably his best work imo.....so organic and textured. Having owned some of the unbelievable pages where he provided pencils-only (GLGA 87 for example), it is almost a shame that they are inked-over 99% of the time.

It's hard to disagree with most of what you write here Mike, even though we might differ slightly on Adams peak years and evolution of ink styles.  Those differences are subtle, and subjective for the most part.  I will agree with you however, that your bolded quote above is spot on--Adams was a magician with his pencil line.  Best I've ever seen.  Bold and subtle at the same time, with the "edge of the pencil" approach creating a range in nuance, precision and emotion that must have been a real challenge for any who tried their hand at inking him.  I wish more of Neal's pencils had been saved in some format, like those Avengers 93 pencil Xerox's that are reproduced from time to time.  Almost none of his Xmen pencils were saved, and I can't say I've seen much Batman or Green Lantern pencils either.  The Kirby collector was such a great resource of raw Kirby pencils for art aficionado's to experience the King's work in new ways.  Too bad for us Adams enthusiast's that we will never have that same type of resource.

 

[PhilipB2k17]

Here’s Tom Palmer on inking Neal Adams. 

http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/03palmer.html

”Other guys today try to pencil as if they were going to ink it, or they're trying to set it up for the inker. Neal penciled for penciling; the inking became another art that you brought to it. And I think that's what I was challenged by. He didn't put a line down that you just filled in. You didn't trace it—you had to bring something to it.

As far as inking over Neal, you realized you couldn't do it all in pen, nor could you do it just in brush—you needed both if you wanted to pick up what he was doing when he inked. He would probably render in pen, and then go back with a brush, and hit some of the heavier lines, and also some of the shadowing. You could tell, because it was a real juicy black line; it kind of forced me to match it.”

Edited February 19, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[Catwoman_Fan]

On 2/15/2018 at 11:51 PM, stinkininkin said:

Off the top of my head, all but one of the Brave and Bolds, and Batman 251, the Joker issue.  I believe a handful of pages from Batman 245 have Adams inks as well (from memory).  And just a ton of Batman, Detective and Brave and Bold covers of course.

It sounds like his studio had a lot of involvement on his later (early 1970s) DC comics.  How do you (and collectors) view the books that Neal oversaw (but did not completely draw)? Is there a clear delineation between comics illustrated by  Neal, and ones he art directed? (like the Daredevil books that Miller only provided layouts )

 

[delekkerste]

My pal Vincent (Metropolis, ComicConnect) Zurzolo just posted this on Facebook - part of the Art of DC Comics exhibition that just opened in London (was in Paris recently as well).

For those who have seen the original cover artwork, is this it (I thought it was on two boards)?  Or is this a production cover?  Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but, it looks like Batman & Robin are part of the overlay (and thus probably stats along with the trade dressing and word balloons), perhaps laid over the Ra's OA?

Also, did Giordano sign the cover in the lower left margin simply because he worked on the interiors, or did he ink the cover as well (it's credited as all-Adams)?  

[stinkininkin]

24 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

My pal Vincent (Metropolis, ComicConnect) Zurzolo just posted this on Facebook - part of the Art of DC Comics exhibition that just opened in London (was in Paris recently as well).

For those who have seen the original cover artwork, is this it (I thought it was on two boards)?  Or is this a production cover?  Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but, it looks like Batman & Robin are part of the overlay (and thus probably stats along with the trade dressing and word balloons), perhaps laid over the Ra's OA?

Also, did Giordano sign the cover in the lower left margin simply because he worked on the interiors, or did he ink the cover as well (it's credited as all-Adams)?  

The originals (both) are all Neal.  Full pencils on the R'has and pencils and inks on the Batman and Robin.  And it's one TWO (2) separate boards.  So yes, the Batman and Robin are not original as shown in this picture, but I have no idea about the R'has pencils underneath. 

EDIT--Just talked to previous owner and he's 90% sure that the Batman and Robin is inked by Giordano.  I had to admit that when I went to look for quality images of this cover, I couldn't tell for sure because of lousy reproduction.  I'm going to ask the current owner next.

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by stinkininkin

[stinkininkin]

33 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

My pal Vincent (Metropolis, ComicConnect) Zurzolo just posted this on Facebook - part of the Art of DC Comics exhibition that just opened in London (was in Paris recently as well).

For those who have seen the original cover artwork, is this it (I thought it was on two boards)?  Or is this a production cover?  Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but, it looks like Batman & Robin are part of the overlay (and thus probably stats along with the trade dressing and word balloons), perhaps laid over the Ra's OA?

Also, did Giordano sign the cover in the lower left margin simply because he worked on the interiors, or did he ink the cover as well (it's credited as all-Adams)?  

Second Edit--The previous owner just told me it's 100% Giordano on the Batman and Robin, and the current owner just told me it's Adams!  I give up!

[Catwoman_Fan]

1 hour ago, stinkininkin said:

Second Edit--The previous owner just told me it's 100% Giordano on the Batman and Robin, and the current owner just told me it's Adams!  I give up!

That circles back to my OP.  The artist credits change based on who you ask - and when you ask  them. 

[PhilipB2k17]

20 hours ago, delekkerste said:

My pal Vincent (Metropolis, ComicConnect) Zurzolo just posted this on Facebook - part of the Art of DC Comics exhibition that just opened in London (was in Paris recently as well).

For those who have seen the original cover artwork, is this it (I thought it was on two boards)?  Or is this a production cover?  Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but, it looks like Batman & Robin are part of the overlay (and thus probably stats along with the trade dressing and word balloons), perhaps laid over the Ra's OA?

Also, did Giordano sign the cover in the lower left margin simply because he worked on the interiors, or did he ink the cover as well (it's credited as all-Adams)?  

Hard to say. The last time I saw it was like 35 years ago.

[PhilipB2k17]

19 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

Second Edit--The previous owner just told me it's 100% Giordano on the Batman and Robin, and the current owner just told me it's Adams!  I give up!

Can you PM me on who owned this page 35-40 years ago (if you know)? Because I distinctly remember being at his table at a Con in Michigan as a kid in the early 80's (I believe), where he showed t to me and someone else.