Price Per Point is Not a Thing...for Golden Age 5 5

[Ricksneatstuff]

This is NOT directed at anyone who I have ever had a price per point negotiation with so don’t take it like it is.  I’ve had dozens of those discussions. 

The price per point talk is NOT TRUE at all with golden age books.  It may seem to prove true when you see a $2,000 2.0 book become a $4,000 4.0 book but in many cases that will become an $8-10k 6.0 book and a $18-20k 8.0 book, etc. Many HTF gold books literally double per point- just look at GPA. Look at a 6.5 Phantom Lady 23 That is a $5500ish book now IMO but it becomes $14k at 8.0. When you go up in grade it clearly changes the curve on the price per point, nearly always. I’m sure exceptions could be found, but they would be few and far between or big gaps in time in GPA results. 

When you are negotiating for a higher grade book you want price per point and so that becomes the negotiating talk.  “Well, the 3.0 copy sold recently for $3,000 so you should take $7,000 for the 7.0 since it’s $1,000 a point, right?” Nope. I don’t hear many people say “That 9.6 sold for $100k so you probably want $30k or so for that 4.0, right?”

After 9.0 each 0.2 becomes a whole point in most cases too so I counted 12 points on the 9.6 example above. How often do you see in gold a 9.2 become almost double the 9.0 and the 9.4 nearly double the 9.2? Fairly often, and if the 9.4 is lone highest- obviously all bets are off.  

Some people I respect a lot in the hobby really believe in price per point but I just don’t see it. If I had the 8.5 Teenage Romances 32 That book would sell for $8,500- for sure. The 7.0 copies MIGHT sell for $5,000 but my 4.0 is still gonna be $1500 tops. We went from $1,000 a point to $700 a point to $375 a point. From what I’ve seen this is the way it goes with the golden age books I’ve followed. 

I know there have been other discussions on this topic here. If someone can make a real case for price per point I’m willing to change my view.  

Edited April 10, 2018 by Ricksneatstuff

[Yorick]

16 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

the 8.5 Teenage Romances 32 That book would sell for $8,500

I LOVE that book, but CGC only gives it 201 points on the registry.  Worse, in the same registry set a TAR38 in 8.0 gets 210 points.  Obviously CGC thinks that the price per point is irrelevant.

[Ricksneatstuff]

Just now, Yorick said:

I LOVE that book, but CGC only gives it 201 points on the registry.  Worse, in the same registry set a TAR38 in 8.0 gets 210 points.  Obviously CGC thinks that the price per point is irrelevant.

Why don’t you just take all my money now and let’s get it over with?  

[Yorick]

2 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

Why don’t you just take all my money now and let’s get it over with?  

Those are not in my registry set! 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Yorick
Clarifying...

[Ricksneatstuff]

Just now, Yorick said:

Not my registry set! 

Oh ok.  I was kidding anyway but on 8.0 TAR 38 would make me cash in some stocks. 

[Yorick]

8 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

Oh ok.  I was kidding anyway but on 8.0 TAR 38 would make me cash in some stocks. 

The 38 is higher on your list than the 32?  Hi-jacking this thread into Baker fun!

[Ricksneatstuff]

2 minutes ago, Yorick said:

The 38 is higher on your list than the 32?  Hi-jacking this thread into Baker fun!

Would like highest of both please. 

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

The price per point talk is NOT TRUE at all with golden age books. 

2 hours ago, szavisca said:

Price per point really only works up to 6.0 for GA books.

As far as I know, price per point for GA is generally talked about for books ranging in grade from 2.0 Good up to 6.0 Fine only.

Especially for keys or classic HTF covers, where entry levels can sometimes go for nosebleed level prices.  Of course, we all know what the higher grade copies for these books would go for if they ever do show up in the marketplace.

So yes, the price per point does seem to apply, but within a much narrower grade range than what you seem to be thinking in terms of.

[miraclemet]

Doesn't all the $ per point assume a standard availability distribution, and some books are rare period, and some are rare in higher grade, and some don't (seem to) even exist past a certain grade...

I get using price per point as a starting point for figuring out value (when dealing with GA where sales are infrequent, and hard to gauge against market trends), but is can't be considered some "be all end all" set in stone determinant .

Edited April 9, 2018 by miraclemet

[miraclemet]

also I know there are some SPECIFIC GA books discussed that seem to follow a linear price/point progression.... some Superhero keys, cant remember which. But I dont think  you can apply specific pricing behaviors across large swathes of books.

Edited April 9, 2018 by miraclemet

[skypinkblu]

8 hours ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

This is NOT directed at anyone who I have ever had a price per point negotiation with so don’t take it like it is.  I’ve had dozens of those discussions. 

The price per point talk is NOT TRUE at all with golden age books.  It may seem to prove true when you see a $2,000 2.0 book become a $4,000 4.0 book but in many cases that will become an $8-10k 6.0 book and a $18-20k 8.0 book, etc. Many HTF gold books literally double per point- just look at GPA. Look at a 6.5 Phantom Lady 23 That is a $5500ish book now IMO but it becomes $14k at 8.0. When you go up in grade it clearly changes the curve on the price per point, nearly always. I’m sure exceptions could be found, but they would be few and far between or big gaps in time in GPA results. 

When you are negotiating for a higher grade book you want price per point and so that becomes the negotiating talk.  “Well, the 3.0 copy sold recently for $3,000 so you should take $7,000 for the 7.0 since it’s $1,000 a point, right?” Nope. I don’t hear many people say “That 9.6 sold for $100k so you probably want $30k or so for that 4.0, right?”

After 9.0 each 0.2 becomes a whole point in most cases too so I counted 12 points on the 9.6 example above. How often do you see in gold a 9.2 become almost double the 9.0 and the 9.4 nearly double the 9.2? Fairly often, and if the 9.4 is lone highest- obviously all bets are off.  

Some people I respect a lot in the hobby really believe in price per point but I just don’t see it. If I had the 8.5 Teenage Romances 32 That book would sell for $8,500- for sure. The 7.0 copies MIGHT sell for $5,000 but my 4.0 is still gonna be $1500 tops. We went from $1,000 a point to $700 a point to $375 a point. From what I’ve seen this is the way it goes with the golden age books I’ve followed. 

I know there have been other discussions on this topic here. If someone can make a real case for price per point I’m willing to change my view.  

I like the price per point as a shopping tool myself, not for a negotiating tool, but to see how trends seem to be, because otherwise, I would be clueless. People seem to shout out some really high prices for books I see sold for much less weeks before, and then BOOM.  They are  doubled, tripled touted as the hottest thing since beanie babies hit the market 20 something years ago. ..and frankly, I can't understand WHY?  They certainly didn't seem so hot when I sold mine a few weeks before.  I'm sure I'm missing all the back room sales, but I, like many others don't have access to them.

To me if a book sells for let's see $1,000 one week, $3,000 the next (on GPA or eBay), I kind of average it, especially with scarce books because there is not much to base it on, but some sellers see the $3,000 as the new PRICE.  I've been shown incidents on eBay where books have been manipulated by phony bids between two people. I think i twas Star Wars or something last year (not GA) and it occurs to me, that can happen anywhere. 

Then there are the sales where someone bids ME up to oblivion, way over what I think it's worth, but that price becomes the new norm when it's put on sale. Sometimes those sales are very quick. I have seen that happen with some of the Jon Berk books. Then there are the new "asking" prices. Last night I saw a Berk book on eBay that sold for something like $500 last June, the new asking price was just under $1k.  I just turn to the next page.

I don't have my finger on every sale in the market place here, or at conventions or behind closed doors, so I need to start somewhere, so I use GPA and Heritage and eBay as my tools.  I'd LOVE to use this marketplace, but it seems the trend by some people lately is to erase asking prices, sold prices. I am not sure why that is being done, because it was always very helpful )at least to me, to see that information.

So the price per point gives me something at least to look at. Am I missing some private sales, no doubt...if people would share them, well, I might have a better clue, but it all seems so mysterious sometimes. I looked at price per point for years, then when GAtor started talking about it, I thought...hey, maybe I'm not so crazy.

I don't do   a lot of negotiations on prices. I don't enjoy it, so maybe I'm looking for something statistical that helps me decide if I'm crazy to buy something;)

Sometimes I feel that the prices on some books here, are being pushed up, if I do, I just stop looking. True auctions are usually the best guide. 

A good friend, who has a lot of common sense, tells me all the time to ask whatever I "want" with a book, I can always lower my price, but I can't go up (with the same sale). He has a point. Perhaps if too many people are negotiating with you, the market isn't what you want it to be.

If I have a sale, I'm usually looking at books sold on eBay, if the books are scarce, I look at GPA, Heritage, Metro, some other sites, it takes me a while, and then I just guess;) If something doesn't sell, I just toss it in an auction if I want to sell it. Lots of times it sells for more than my original asking price, sometimes not at all. It all kind of evens out.

Sorry for the long post...I don't think I've ever "negotiated" with you, Rick...but I don't really agree about it not being useful.

 

 

[october]

26 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

 it seems the trend by some people lately is to erase asking prices, sold prices. I am not sure why that is being done, because it was always very helpful )at least to me, to see that information.

 

 

Drives me nuts!

[skypinkblu]

13 minutes ago, october said:

Drives me nuts!

One very nice seller, told me that people would use his old prices to "negotiate " his new prices . I just figure the price you want is your price. If you don't want to lower it, I understand, but why erase the history? There is nothing to be ashamed of with an asking price. If you raise it because you believe  the book has caught fire, you can either leave it at the new, price, lower it, take it elsewhere, etc.

Or, and I know this is a stretch...keep it;) 

[Ricksneatstuff]

" Perhaps if too many people are negotiating with you, the market isn't what you want it to be."

These are not usually negotiations for books I have openly for sale. In my experience the buying market on the boards represents a fairly small percentage of the overall comic buyers. My net sales on books that didn't sell here but sold at auction has actually been within 5% of my asking price as a whole. I've had books languish here for $1200 and then sell less than a month later at auction for $3500 and I have had books I wanted $300 for sell at auction for $200 but as a whole group it has been pretty much exactly what I priced them at here on the boards. A lot of what I am involved with is GGA stuff obviously. A lot of it is difficult in grade and the prices go up exponentially as you get higher grades. People say to me "I saw this 3.0 sell for $300 so this 5.0 should be around $500". It just doesn't work that way from what I am seeing. The bottom line is if we could buy for X dollars a point we could sell for X dollars a point but I have yet to be able to buy for that. The evidence of recorded sales doesn't show it either. That is all I am saying. I get that it gives some starting basis for discussing value but it doesn't play out that way at auction from what I have seen. Also, obviously, there are all kinds of jumps in price and unknown factors depending on the auction house, time of year, presentation of the book, shill bidding- as you mentioned, etc. 

[Callaway29]

In short, I agree with you Rick. $$ per point assumes price/scarcity is linear, which simply isn't true...

I've had people use this methodology for silver too. For example, SC22...using a lower grade as their cost basis. Well, SC22 becomes scarcer the higher the grade gets, therefore price grows accordingly...

Sure, it can be used for internal ballpark sanity checks, but when someone busts it out during negotiations I treat it for what it is...a mechanism to haggle lower than the book's true value.

 

[skypinkblu]

5 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

" Perhaps if too many people are negotiating with you, the market isn't what you want it to be."

These are not usually negotiations for books I have openly for sale. In my experience the buying market on the boards represents a fairly small percentage of the overall comic buyers. My net sales on books that didn't sell here but sold at auction has actually been within 5% of my asking price as a whole. I've had books languish here for $1200 and then sell less than a month later at auction for $3500 and I have had books I wanted $300 for sell at auction for $200 but as a whole group it has been pretty much exactly what I priced them at here on the boards. A lot of what I am involved with is GGA stuff obviously. A lot of it is difficult in grade and the prices go up exponentially as you get higher grades. People say to me "I saw this 3.0 sell for $300 so this 5.0 should be around $500". It just doesn't work that way from what I am seeing. The bottom line is if we could buy for X dollars a point we could sell for X dollars a point but I have yet to be able to buy for that. The evidence of recorded sales doesn't show it either. That is all I am saying. I get that it gives some starting basis for discussing value but it doesn't play out that way at auction from what I have seen. Also, obviously, there are all kinds of jumps in price and unknown factors depending on the auction house, time of year, presentation of the book, shill bidding- as you mentioned, etc. 

I know that prices fluctuate. Yesterday I actually found a book on eBay at $100 less than GPA, I bought it, I guess I was lucky, usually it's a lot more than GPA;) but not everyone uses it obviously.

I think you are a fantastic sales person. I look at books that I have no interest in at all when they are on your thread and I see things I missed before. That certainly helps you...but as far as real prices go, without the benefit of a great sales person, they fluctuate. I put some books on eBay that ended last night. They did what they always do, some sold for higher prices than I had on the boards, some lower. I sold a lot on the boards, does that mean I'm spot on with my pricing? I doubt it, I think that for most of us, there is a limited amount of actual market information available and if you try to be up front, people usually see the same market information. That's about all I can do personally. 

In any case, since I only own a few 9.2's or anything let alone 9.4's, pricing in that range rarely affects me, I don't doubt  you are correct in those ranges and I wouldn't even suggest using price per point there, but I do think it's valid in lots of other grades as a GUIDE, in the absence of anything else and if you are looking at that and only 1 or 2 books are in the sample, well, it makes sense to do more research unless you are looking at inexpensive books. . 

If you really look at pricing for lower grade books, they actually can go for more "per point" than 4.0's, 6.0's, because they are more affordable to more people...but none of this is perfect, just guessing.

If it wasn't guessing, we'd be buying and selling comics in Costco all at set prices.

[Ricksneatstuff]

You are 100% right Sharon! We all are really guessing with what we pay for a book and what we sell a book for. We don't always guess right. I think that is one of the things I like about golden age books- the uncertainty of it all. 

[october]

7 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

 I think that is one of the things I like about golden age books- the uncertainty of it all. 

You nailed it. I much prefer selling gold for this exact reason. A lot more pliability in prices than with, say, a VF Tomb of Dracula 10. Makes it much more interesting. 

[skypinkblu]

5 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

You are 100% right Sharon! We all are really guessing with what we pay for a book and what we sell a book for. We don't always guess right. I think that is one of the things I like about golden age books- the uncertainty of it all. 

You are definitely braver about your purchases Me, I just look for the pretty pictures and the stories, lol.  I  check pricing in the hope to find something that maybe if I NEED to sell it, or I want to trade for something later on, I won't lose too much. I just sold a bunch of stuff I had for at least 15 years and I still put 1/2 back because once I saw the pictures I couldn't part with them;)

 

[Hudson]

Of course all this really only matters if you want to buy and sell.   As a "collector" with no interest in selling, the FMV is not as important.  Regrettably the world of comics has turned and is far more of a business than it once was.   Thus the ability to "perfectly" price every book becomes the ultimate goal.  

 

No no disrespect to sellers, as without them I would not be able to buy.