Is this unacceptable or is it just me? 4 4

[Number 6]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

USPS (and the U.S. Government) can intercept and open any U.S. Mail they want, with proper legal procedures.

The key phrase there is “with proper legal procedure” 

My Priority Mail package doesn’t have “Subject To Inspection” stamped on it like a Media Mail package does. 

There’s a difference. 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

29 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

The key phrase there is “with proper legal procedure” 

My Priority Mail package doesn’t have “Subject To Inspection” stamped on it like a Media Mail package does. 

There’s a difference. 

OK. If you think that stops any opening or seizure, I won't argue. Put a little white powder in it. Or better yet, some MJ blooms. Or some gun powder. Mail away.....

[UNoMeEvilEye]

32 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Or better yet, some MJ blooms.

 I've never heard anyone refer to weed like this. You must be like 80 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, jharvey said:

You can argue the rules of media mail all you want. Fact of the matter is the post office WILL occasionally open/inspect media mail, and if they find a comic book inside they WILL assess postage due, and it WILL upset the receiver of the comic book. Personally, I'm not willing to risk my seller reputation over it.

If you're not comfortable using the service, the answer is obvious, is it not...? What you've claimed here isn't true. Plenty of post offices have inspected Media mail, found a comic (or multiple comics), and not had an issue with it. Why? Because the rule is open to interpretation.

 

[jharvey]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If you're not comfortable using the service, the answer is obvious, is it not...? What you've claimed here isn't true. Plenty of post offices have inspected Media mail, found a comic (or multiple comics), and not had an issue with it. Why? Because the rule is open to interpretation.

 

It's not true? Really? What you mean to say is that it's not true 100% of the time, but it certainly is true some of the time. I have had sellers send me comic books via media mail, and they were opened, inspected, and I was assessed postage due on them due to the reason that comic books don't qualify as media mail. At my post office.

Edited May 12, 2018 by jharvey

[Number 6]

1 hour ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

OK. If you think that stops any opening or seizure, I won't argue. Put a little white powder in it. Or better yet, some MJ blooms. Or some gun powder. Mail away.....

I was speaking solely with regard to comics and collectibles since I assumed that’s what the context of the discussion was. 

I would never use any form of USPS to move my anthrax, weed and explosives. 

That’s what the human trafficking side of my business is for. 

[newshane]

Some dedicated deliberation going down here. lol

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 hours ago, bababooey said:

The reason the advertising is still advertising relates to the fact that, when published, that formerly blank page was sold to an entity advertising their products, the page space was sold at a cost, advertising is not just defined by whether or not the item is available.  Their effectiveness on consumers may "expire" but that doesn't change what the fact that it's still an advertisement. 

The interpretive guidelines (non DMM stuff) are to assist employees and users. 

That's an interesting argument, and one I've not seen used in this discussion before. If I understand you correctly, it's basically "what is advertising, from the view of the advertiser and/or the publisher?"

It's a bit circular...."it's still advertising...because it's still an advertisement"...but that aside, how do you explain "page space"? Do you mean the actual, individual page as it exists in each individual sold and distributed (not printed) copy? (I'm fairly certain you don't mean this.) Or do you mean overall, as it relates to the issue, and not the copies themselves? Advertising, as you know, especially in the past, was based on tiers of sold/distributed copies, rather than individual sales results for individual issues. Contracts weren't negotiated based on the actual amount of individual copies sold/distributed, as in "we will sell this space for 2 cents for each and every copy we sell", but rather "this is our average sales rate for this title, so our ad rate is thus and such."

It's relevant, because you're contending that the space itself remains "advertising" in perpetuity, based on that space having been "sold", and forever legally belonging to, another entity, right? 

(and, an aside, it is true that advertising is not JUST defined by whether or not the item is available, but it can be part of that definition.)

If you mean the former...that the actual, physical page of each individual copy still extant belongs to the advertiser forever, since it was sold to them, I would contend that that's not true, because contracts weren't sold on a copy by copy basis. They didn't "purchase" the actual page of each actual copy. And, of course, that would come into conflict with the right of the purchaser to that individual piece of property, because every part of that copy belongs to the purchaser, and the advertiser has no legal claim to it.

If the latter...that they "own" the page on every copy, because they bought the space for the entire issue, regardless of how many copies were sold/distributed , I would contend that that's not true, because there is no such thing as "advertising in perpetuity" (at least de facto, if not de jure.) Advertisers aren't sold this particular space based on the idea that their advertising would be viewable by people forever, or even a very long time, or even a not-so-long time. They are sold the space based on the idea that a certain number of people will see it when the item the advertising contains is brand new. and will be available for retail purchase. Once the item has ceased to be "brand new", and no longer available for retail purchase, the advertising, from the view of both the publisher and the advertiser, is no longer "in effect." Whatever results the advertiser is assumed to have gotten from their investment is done, and they move on to the next advertisement.

So, in THAT sense, an ad ceases to be an ad the moment the issue is replaced by the next issue, and/or is no longer for sale. And that is how both the publisher and the advertiser view it. The space was bought, the issue was printed, distributed, and sold, and the contract fulfilled. The end.

I'm not suggesting that's the case...but an argument COULD be made that way (and, in fact, has been.)

Nevertheless, it's an interesting argument.

[shadroch]

I've never had a Media Mail package that was opened, found to contain comics and not been upcharged. In fact, the opposite is true. I had a package containing  nothing but trade paperbacks intercepted and delivered with additional postage due. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

35 minutes ago, jharvey said:

38 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If you're not comfortable using the service, the answer is obvious, is it not...? What you've claimed here isn't true. Plenty of post offices have inspected Media mail, found a comic (or multiple comics), and not had an issue with it. Why? Because the rule is open to interpretation.

 

It's not true? Really? What you mean to say is that it's not true 100% of the time, but it certainly is true some of the time. I have had sellers send me comic books via media mail, and they were opened, inspected, and I was assessed postage due on them due to the reason that comic books don't qualify as media mail. At my post office.

No doubt. And such an event has happened many times, over many years. However, that's not what you said initially.

Your previous quote....reproduced here:

Quote

Fact of the matter is the post office WILL occasionally open/inspect media mail, and if they find a comic book inside they WILL assess postage due, and it WILL upset the receiver of the comic book. Personally, I'm not willing to risk my seller reputation over it.

What you meant to say was "the post office WILL occasionally open/inspect media mail, and if they find a comic book inside, they MIGHT asses postage due", which is true. I'd even be ok with "PROBABLY will"...but your statement was unequivocal, and not in keeping with the reality of the situation.

I said what I meant to say. I'm very careful with my words in debates, as I have a habit of parsing (and I consider it a good one), and expect parsing in return, as should everyone.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, wombat said:

The media mail debate always seems like such a useless conversation. Post office decides to open up your media mail package. Post office determines comics aren't valid. Post office says you have to pay up. Post office can point at statements that were made and publicly posted that comics are not valid. 

Now what? Debate them over the definition of an add? Debate them over what body has to issue their rules? 

 

 

Absolutely, except I would never debate anyone about an add...only a subtraction.

Post office is bound by DMM. Post office can't "point at" statements that aren't part of the DMM, as if they have any regulatory weight.

Bureaucrats live and die by rules. That is true when it hurts the public, but it can also help the public. The post office isn't the final arbiter of the rules, as it relates to them. The DMM is.

I'm not saying you'll win such an argument. I'm saying it's an argument that CAN be made, and it's not without merit. Don't want to be bothered? No problem! And that's a valid course to take most of the time.

But don't claim that there's no reason to bother, because there is, and if someone wants to bother...they have a leg to stand on.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Number 6 said:

 

For me, it's not about whether comic books would be deemed unacceptable and I (or the person I'm shipping to) would be charged additional postage.

It's the fact that media mail is a method of shipping that is subject to opening and inspection to determine whether the contents are allowed are not.

Even if tomorrow every single employee on every single level of the USPS bureaucracy came to a uniform agreement that comic books are allowed to be shipped media mail, those packages would still be subject to opening for inspection.

So in that world, even though neither the shipper nor recipient would be charged additional postage upon inspection, there would still be the risk of careless opening, handling, and repackaging with the potential of damage either at the time of inspection or in transit thereafter.   

This is one of the reasons I don't ship via eBay's Global Shipping Program:  I endeavor to pack my items very carefully and securely.  The idea that a PB employee opens the package to confirm contents and then possibly do a less than thorough job securely repackaging an item is unacceptable to me.

So if I were to say "I can't ship media mail" it would be a grammatically incorrect way of saying that because of the potential risk of mishandling and damage due to possible inspection media mail is, in my view, not a viable option for shipping items that are of a condition-sensitive nature. 

Agreed, 100%. And I would no longer ship condition-sensitive items to anyone that way.

The argument I've made before is this: the reason Media mail exists is to inexpensively ship heavy and/or bulky items for educational purposes. Comic books, in general, have been classified as educational materials since they were first produced. If I'm sending a bunch of old Spidey comics to my school library, for example, and I'm not sending them as "collector's items", but rather reading material for people, then that is in harmony with the spirit and intent of Media mail.

The reason the "no advertising" rule exists is so that PUBLISHERS couldn't use the service to ship NEW, PAID FOR (by advertising) periodicals (comics, beauty magazines, fitness magazines, whatever) to their own subscribers. Not so that consumers would be prevented from sending their USED items to other consumers as they saw fit. But now, overzealous postal employees AND consumers have LAZILY interpreted the rule "by the letter" (as they see it), and ignored its intent and spirit. And so, a rule that was intended to prevent a specific type of distribution has been interpreted to cover things it was never intended to cover.

Obviously, those sending comics as "collector's items" aren't doing that, and obviously there's little way to tell the difference...but to say "comics don't qualify, ever, period, end of story" is simply not true, and whatever official wrote that on the USPS website is flat out wrong. It's a narrow, pedantic way of viewing a matter that, frankly, is open to interpretation (as I have done.)

Edited May 12, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus
Clarity! Oh, rapturous clarity! I think on thee daily.

[kav]

But, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

[shadroch]

Would the world be a better place if the smartest man on the planet had never picked up a comic book? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Would the world be a better place if the smartest man on the planet had never picked up a comic book? 

But you did, and so here we are.

[jsilverjanet]

55 minutes ago, kav said:

But, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

Why did you stop posting for so long 

[shadroch]

7 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

Why did you stop posting for so long 

Too busy counting angels, obviously. Even Kav can only do so much multi-tasking. Freaking Angels keep dancing around and they all look pretty much alike. Hard to get an accurate count.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But you did, and so here we are.

The question was smartest, not dumbest 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But you did, and so here we are.

The question was smartest, not dumbest 

I stand most humbly corrected.

[UNoMeEvilEye]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 I have a habit of parsing (and I consider it a good one),

It's not, it's one of the reasons people think you're a petty doosh bag.