Newton Ring Question 3 3

[VintageComics]

4 minutes ago, FSF said:

That's because the entire economy has been inflated like a bubble pushing asset values of everything to the sky.  It has been purely a money function recently across comics, cards, whatever.  We'll see how they hold up when the calamity hits and there is no easy money to be made by virtually anyone in comics.

 

 

If you're saying that the money always wins then welcome to the capitalist economy.

2 minutes ago, FSF said:

CGC books are becoming like Picassos or Van Goghs with glass covers where the glass has been randomly painted all over the place largely obstructing the painting's beauty.  Who would really hang that in their home?

You're beating a dead horse.

Search for newton rings discussions from April to the fall of 2016 and read to your heart's content..

Maybe when they recoup from their investment from the product change back in 2016 they may have a solution in mind but nothing is changing anytime soon.

Your choices are to use CGC or go elsewhere.

[FSF]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

So then you are adding a lot to cost.

I'm sure CGC has looked at options.

I can only think that any changes at this point would be price prohibitive. Then the additional costs of retooling (and of coming up with a complex mold as opposed to a simple sheet, which the top of the inner well now is) would then be passed onto the submitters who already have complained about every price hike.

I agree that newton rings are unappealing (and even unacceptable) but I just don't see it happening.

There are costs to everything for every business.  I have no idea of the dollars involved but if they want me to do a free ROI analysis for them, I'd be happy to. 

You may very well be right that nothing may happen but just think about how ridiculous that sounds.  Basically, you're saying that CGC is taking the position:

"We don't really care how the book looks inside the slabs."

Yet that is one of the most fundamental elements of their value proposition.

And while I'm no expert, I understand that their competitors don't have this issue.  If that is the case, WHY is that so?

I have NEVER seen any comparable issue in the dozens of generations of slabs that exist in the coin world or the sports card world.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

7 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

So then you are adding a lot to cost.

I'm sure CGC has looked at options.

I can only think that any changes at this point would be price prohibitive. Then the additional costs of retooling (and of coming up with a complex mold as opposed to a simple sheet, which the top of the inner well now is) would then be passed onto the submitters who already have complained about every price hike.

I agree that newton rings are unappealing (and even unacceptable) but I just don't see it happening.

You're probably right Roy. Anyway, I can't talk now as I'm trying to contact CG Cars. They sold me this car but I can't see a damn thing out of the wind shield. Can't get through on the phone. Knowing my luck they've gone out of business! 

[FSF]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

If you're saying that the money always wins then welcome to the capitalist economy.

You're beating a dead horse.

Search for newton rings discussions from April to the fall of 2016 and read to your heart's content..

Maybe when they recoup from their investment from the product change back in 2016 they may have a solution in mind but nothing is changing anytime soon.

Your choices are to use CGC or go elsewhere.

I understand everything you're saying.  But almost ALL topics here and on every forum is about constantly beating dead horses.  Your choice is to read or ignore.  As for myself, I will post whatever I feel like whenever I feel like within the rules of the forum.

I have read the historical posts. What has that got to do with anything we are talking about here and now???  All you're saying is that people have already complained.  So what?  CGC can still take action at any time, which is the hope here.  Or are you saying that CGC has made some declarative statement that I missed which would be certainly of value and help with understanding their stance.

As for money being most fundamental in a capitalist economy, it's most fundamental in any economy.  But there is a shortsightedness that MANY businesses operate under, which limits the long-term success or for that matter it's basic viability.  Most businesses who ignore their customers eventually wind up paying for that in spades.

 

[VintageComics]

5 minutes ago, FSF said:

There are costs to everything for every business.  I have no idea of the dollars involved but if they want me to do a free ROI analysis for them, I'd be happy to. 

You may very well be right that nothing may happen but just think about how ridiculous that sounds.  Basically, you're saying that CGC is taking the position:

"We don't really care how the book looks inside the slabs."

Yet that is one of the most fundamental elements of their value proposition.

And while I'm no expert, I understand that their competitors don't have this issue.  If that is the case, WHY is that so?

I have NEVER seen any comparable issue in the dozens of generations of slabs that exist in the coin world or the sports card world.

 

 

2 minutes ago, FSF said:

I understand everything you're saying.  But almost ALL topics here and on every forum is about constantly beating dead horses.  Your choice is to read or ignore.  As for myself, I will post whatever I feel like whenever I feel like within the rules of the forum.

I have read the historical posts. What has that got to do with anything we are talking about here and now???  All you're saying is that people have already complained.  So what?  CGC can still take action at any time, which is the hope here.  Or are you saying that CGC has made some declarative statement that I missed which would be certainly of value and help with understanding their stance.

As for money being most fundamental in a capitalist economy, it's most fundamental in any economy.  But there is a shortsightedness that MANY businesses operate under, which limits the long-term success or for that matter it's basic viability.  Most businesses who ignore their customers eventually wind up paying for that in spades.

 

You can post anything you want. I'm not stopping you. I was just trying to save you the trouble and explain that they had a wall of complaints back in 2016 both on the chat forum and at local conventions throughout the year (including bringing one of Collectors Society's top executives to San Diego to field concerns and complaints - I spoke to him) and the general consensus on here is that they have pretty much stated that nothing is changing. If you read those historical posts you'd know that.

Knock yourself out.

 

[I like pie]

I would definitely pay $5 more a book to get the effect to be minimal, like the last gen slabs.

The problem is simple. A majority of submitters are flipping. So why complain? They don't care what it looks like.

[FSF]

Persistent complaints by a large number of constituents almost ALWAYS leads to change.  Your idea of giving up basically is letting CGC do whatever it wants to its customer base.

 

 

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, FSF said:

Persistent complaints by a large number of constituents almost ALWAYS leads to change.  Your idea of giving up basically is letting CGC do whatever it wants to its customer base.

 

 

You said you read those historical threads where literally everyone on the chat forum that posted about them complained but it doesn't sound like you did.

A 'large number of constituents' did complain and threads still pop up regularly to reopen the discussion but nothing is changing.

The only way change will happen is if it affects the profitability of the business. If people keep submitting it won't affect the profitability of the business. .

A significant amount of people would need to stop buying CGC slabs because of newton rings for it to affect CGC and that doesn't seem to be slowing significantly.  And since people keep submitting regardless, it won't change

 

 

[FSF]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

You said you read those historical threads where literally everyone on the chat forum that posted about them complained but it doesn't sound like you did.

A 'large number of constituents' did complain and threads still pop up regularly to reopen the discussion but nothing is changing.

The only way change will happen is if it affects the profitability of the business. If people keep submitting it won't affect the profitability of the business. .

A significant amount of people would need to stop buying CGC slabs because of newton rings for it to affect CGC and that doesn't seem to be slowing significantly.  And since people keep submitting regardless, it won't change

 

 

I did read them and I'm bot sure what you're trying to say.  It proved NOTHING and I did not find any decent response from CGC.  As if "general consensus" means anything here.  The ONLY thing that ultimately matters is what CGC is going to do.

Profits right now are a function of a bunch of flippers.  It's easy flipping and making free money in an environment like today.  And who's to say they wouldn't get even more submissions if they didn't have this issue?  When the submissions dry up when the economy pulls back (and likely in a way that NONE of us have ever seen in our lives), we'll see how those submission do.

You're making the correlation here that the submission levels are somehow indicative that people are happy with CGC slabs.  I completely agree that people are happy with the MONEY that can be made from them, but not necessarily the slabs themselves (which you've already stipulated). 

 

[FSF]

Another important element to consider is just how much money could be made from reholdering.  I'm fully convinced that CGC is probably holding off on this until there are many more holders with this issue so that they can reap an immediate windfall from just reholdering all of the cases that collectors and even dealers will want to reholder.  I only have a dozen or so slabs but even that is a couple of hundred easy dollars for them.  Add a potential few dozen slabs more that I could have in the next couple of years and all of sudden they have $1,000 of free money from me.  I don't care about the money.  I just want the issue corrected as soon as possible so that I don't burn out on the hobby with disgust. 

Add up all of the people that would reholder if Newton Rings were corrected, and I gotta believe that would probably easily pay for this equipment they have to buy almost immediately.  But of course, they could have a substantially better ROI if they accrued hundreds of thousands of more slabs with this issue. This reholdering seems like an imbedded part of Collectors Universe's model for obvious reasons and I'm betting that is also the case here. 

 

[VintageComics]

19 minutes ago, FSF said:

You're making the correlation here that the submission levels are somehow indicative that people are happy with CGC slabs.

Uh, no I'm not. I'm making the correlation that submission levels are indicative that people are not going to stop submitting to CGC.

11 minutes ago, FSF said:

Add up all of the people that would reholder if Newton Rings were corrected, and I gotta believe that would probably easily pay for this equipment they have to buy almost immediately.  But of course, they could have a substantially better ROI if they accrued hundreds of thousands of more slabs with this issue. This reholdering seems like an imbedded part of Collectors Universe's model for obvious reasons and I'm betting that is also the case here. 

Except it's my understanding that they are reholdering books with newton rings for free. So there goes that business model.

12 minutes ago, FSF said:

Another important element to consider is just how much money could be made from reholdering.  I'm fully convinced that CGC is probably holding off on this until there are many more holders with this issue so that they can reap an immediate windfall from just reholdering all of the cases that collectors and even dealers will want to reholder.  I only have a dozen or so slabs but even that is a couple of hundred easy dollars for them.  Add a potential few dozen slabs more that I could have in the next couple of years and all of sudden they have $1,000 of free money from me.  I don't care about the money.  I just want the issue corrected as soon as possible so that I don't burn out on the hobby with disgust.  

You might want to reconsider your hobby if newton rings are going to burn you out in disgust.

As far as your submission dollars, most dealers spend more on submissions than collectors.

One auction house probably spend more on submissions in a year than most collectors combined.

Anyway, good luck. I think this discussion has been beaten to death already.

[FSF]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

Uh, no I'm not. I'm making the correlation that submission levels are indicative that people are not going to stop submitting to CGC.

Except it's my understanding that they are reholdering books with newton rings for free. So there goes that business model.

You might want to reconsider your hobby if newton rings are going to burn you out in disgust.

As far as your submission dollars, most dealers spend more on submissions than collectors.

One auction house probably spend more on submissions in a year than most collectors combined.

Anyway, good luck. I think this discussion has been beaten to death already.

That isn't a correlation, it's a speculation.  You may be correct, but I doubt it eventually for reasons already mentioned.

But my understanding is that their reholdering isn't really correcting the underlying issue.  It may help a little in some cases.  We'll see if they offer "free" reholdering when they get their new slab in place eventually.  I'd almost bet my life the answer is no.

I agree dealers do a huge chunk of the submissions.  It's their livelihood.  So what? 

Ultimately, as for the beauty of the book, what's happening today is that CGC is saying:

"Send us your book and we will make it look MUCH worse then before you sent it to us."

That just seems absurd to me. Obviously, there are various other value propositions being provided such as the grading and protection.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, FSF said:

I understand everything you're saying.  But almost ALL topics here and on every forum is about constantly beating dead horses.  Your choice is to read or ignore.  As for myself, I will post whatever I feel like whenever I feel like within the rules of the forum.

I have read the historical posts. What has that got to do with anything we are talking about here and now???  All you're saying is that people have already complained.  So what?  CGC can still take action at any time, which is the hope here.  Or are you saying that CGC has made some declarative statement that I missed which would be certainly of value and help with understanding their stance.

As for money being most fundamental in a capitalist economy, it's most fundamental in any economy.  But there is a shortsightedness that MANY businesses operate under, which limits the long-term success or for that matter it's basic viability.  Most businesses who ignore their customers eventually wind up paying for that in spades.

 

Excellent post, well stated, and agreed 1000%.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, FSF said:

Persistent complaints by a large number of constituents almost ALWAYS leads to change.  Your idea of giving up basically is letting CGC do whatever it wants to its customer base.

 

 

Absolutely 1000% correct. Companies may get tired of hearing complaints, but that is the only way that anything changes. If it's not changed, the complaint is still valid.

[VintageComics]

21 minutes ago, FSF said:

That isn't a correlation, it's a speculation.  You may be correct, but I doubt it eventually for reasons

CGC is hiring more graders every year, their lines get longer at every show and their onsite submissions set new records every show. Their first million books took about 7 years to achieve. Their 2nd million was about 4 years. I'll 'speculate' that their submissions are not slowing down.

 

22 minutes ago, FSF said:

I agree dealers do a huge chunk of the submissions.  It's their livelihood.  So what? 

The 'so what' (since you missed it is that if the major submitting dealers don't push back on CGC, change isn't gong to happen.

A bunch of collectors on a chat forum are a drop in the bucket comparatively speaking.

 

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Absolutely 1000% correct. Companies may get tired of hearing complaints, but that is the only way that anything changes. If it's not changed, the complaint is still valid.

Nobody said the complaint wasn't valid. I was one of the chief complainants in 2016 (if FSF had read those threads he'd have known that) but that still doesn't mean it's going to change anything.

The market has spoken loud and clear. Nothing is changing. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.

[I like pie]

1 hour ago, FSF said:

Or are you saying that CGC has made some declarative statement that I missed which would be certainly of value and help with understanding their stance.

 

Unfortunately they have. The amount of the prism effect is acceptable according to them. Although they will reholders for free at times,  it's considered a courtesy.

[RockMyAmadeus]

19 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

32 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Absolutely 1000% correct. Companies may get tired of hearing complaints, but that is the only way that anything changes. If it's not changed, the complaint is still valid.

Nobody said the complaint wasn't valid.

And nobody said anybody said it wasn't valid, either. My reply wasn't to you, but to FSF. 

 

[FSF]

29 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

CGC is hiring more graders every year, their lines get longer at every show and their onsite submissions set new records every show. Their first million books took about 7 years to achieve. Their 2nd million was about 4 years. I'll 'speculate' that their submissions are not slowing down.

 

The 'so what' (since you missed it is that if the major submitting dealers don't push back on CGC, change isn't gong to happen.

A bunch of collectors on a chat forum are a drop in the bucket comparatively speaking.

 

Nobody said the complaint wasn't valid. I was one of the chief complainants in 2016 (if FSF had read those threads he'd have known that) but that still doesn't mean it's going to change anything.

The market has spoken loud and clear. Nothing is changing. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.

Nobody is disputing CGC's success right now.  Companies who rest on their laurels or think things are "good enough" usually eventually become dinosaurs.  It may not be tomorrow, next month or next year, but you can't ignore obvious dissatisfaction as has been expressed repeatedly just on these boards with a very small sample of the collector base which I'm convinced represents a good proxy for how most collectors feel.  How could they not?  It's a MAJOR eyesore which YOU have already agreed to.

As for my posts here including dealer submissions (since you missed it) is that we should all be pushing back, collector or dealer.

First off, I read those posts including the ones on CBCS almost a year ago.  I don't remember every word I read but I agree that it was filled with a LOT of complaining.  That only SUPPORTS my position unless you feel like the intervening two years has made most collectors fond of Newton Rings. Secondly, I'm not sure why you think I haven't read them or even what you think it proves if I hadn't.  If you don't want to believe me, don't.  It makes no difference to me or anything I've posted here.  It seems like an odd and stupid thing to lie about (and even odder that you keep bringing it up in some silly 'gotcha' attempt) but maybe that's how your mind works.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, FSF said:

Another important element to consider is just how much money could be made from reholdering.  I'm fully convinced that CGC is probably holding off on this until there are many more holders with this issue so that they can reap an immediate windfall from just reholdering all of the cases that collectors and even dealers will want to reholder. 

I obviously don't know for a fact but I don't think reslabbing holds much profit, if any, for them. I have heard it's nearly a break even, courtesy type of service. While I think the new slabs can often look great, especially with high grade books, I also think they can look terrible. It seems that the new slabs magnify everything and the flaws of low grade books are accentuated. I much prefer the earlier slabs that were lighter, had minimal Newton RIngs, and were easier to open. I would never reholderer a book that was fine in an older holder. Seems silly to me.

[VintageComics]

11 minutes ago, FSF said:

Nobody is disputing CGC's success right now.  Companies who rest on their laurels or think things are "good enough" usually eventually become dinosaurs.  It may not be tomorrow, next month or next year, but you can't ignore obvious dissatisfaction as has been expressed repeatedly just on these boards with a very small sample of the collector base which I'm convinced represents a good proxy for how most collectors feel.  How could they not?  It's a MAJOR eyesore which YOU have already agreed to.

As for my posts here including dealer submissions (since you missed it) is that we should all be pushing back, collector or dealer.

First off, I read those posts including the ones on CBCS almost a year ago.  I don't remember every word I read but I agree that it was filled with a LOT of complaining.  That only SUPPORTS my position unless you feel like the intervening two years has made most collectors fond of Newton Rings. Secondly, I'm not sure why you think I haven't read them or even what you think it proves if I hadn't.  If you don't want to believe me, don't.  It makes no difference to me or anything I've posted here.  It seems like an odd and stupid thing to lie about (and even odder that you keep bringing it up in some silly 'gotcha' attempt) but maybe that's how your mind works.

 

Alrighty then Captain Obvious, let me know when you change the angle of that windmill.