1% of books are 40% of the CGC Census 1 1

[1950's war comics]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:23 AM, ComicConnoisseur said:

A very good point. An example with me was I devoured the first 50 issues of GI JOE as a kid, but by issue #100 I was long gone from the title.

me too... my true run of consecutive off the stands Spider-Man purchases in my teens were from 148-165 or so and then i basically forgot about comics for 35 yrs.....

[RockMyAmadeus]

24 minutes ago, jaeldubyoo said:

Although I am loathed to admit this, this is exactly what happened to me, I bought multiple copies of ASM #200 and it didn't go anywhere, so by the time #300 came out, I only bought one off the shelf. 

You are not loathed. You are quite adored.

[Gatsby77]

On 6/13/2018 at 1:48 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sure there's a way to back it up.

See the address at the back of the latest Walking Dead issue? You can contact Kirkman directly that way. Write him, see what he says.

Unless you don't believe Kirkman....?

And I am not "hard to come down on" Comichron numbers. The numbers that JJM provides to the collecting community are invaluable, and a great service.

I come down on the people who MISUSE those numbers, who don't understand those numbers, and who repeat those numbers in ways they are not intended to be used and don't mean.

Don't disagree that Kirkman likely held back a few hundred copies of Walking Dead # 1.

And _of course_ re-subs.

I should have noted, "7,266 copies ordered" -- based on Comichron and other sources.

Still, seems a bit disingenuous to disregard the "copies ordered" when there's a hard number listed for the book just a few posts after you use the Cap City numbers for early McFarlane ASM to make a point.

I get that indies =/= mainstream Marvel/DC titles in terms of over-printing and distribution, but all published data (of which you are normally so fond) note the book had a print run of "about 7,000 copies."

You're of course entitled to suggest that the true print run may be double or more than that...but such an assertion puts the onus on you to back up, not us.

Either we trust the listed Cap City / Diamond / etc. published data across the board or we do not.

You can't pick and choose.

[Lazyboy]

12 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

On 6/13/2018 at 12:48 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sure there's a way to back it up.

See the address at the back of the latest Walking Dead issue? You can contact Kirkman directly that way. Write him, see what he says.

Unless you don't believe Kirkman....?

And I am not "hard to come down on" Comichron numbers. The numbers that JJM provides to the collecting community are invaluable, and a great service.

I come down on the people who MISUSE those numbers, who don't understand those numbers, and who repeat those numbers in ways they are not intended to be used and don't mean.

Don't disagree that Kirkman likely held back a few hundred copies of Walking Dead # 1.

And _of course_ re-subs.

I should have noted, "7,266 copies ordered" -- based on Comichron and other sources.

Still, seems a bit disingenuous to disregard the "copies ordered" when there's a hard number listed for the book just a few posts after you use the Cap City numbers for early McFarlane ASM to make a point.

 

 

You're of course entitled to suggest that the true print run may be double or more than that...but such an assertion puts the onus on you to back up, not us.

Either we trust the listed Cap City / Diamond / etc. published data across the board or we do not.

You can't pick and choose.

 Did you miss the part I bolded?

Comichron estimates that 7266 copies were "Shipped to North American Comics Shops Based on Reports from Diamond Comic Distributors" and nothing more. JJM doesn't guess how many copies were shipped out of North America, nor how many copies went to the creators.

Quote

I get that indies =/= mainstream Marvel/DC titles in terms of over-printing and distribution, but all published data (of which you are normally so fond) note the book had a print run of "about 7,000 copies."

Unless those numbers come from somebody relevant (like Kirkman), they are not data. Anybody can publish random numbers.

I think RMA is way overstating the discrepancy by suggesting that 7266 may only be half the print run, but 7266 is absolutely NOT the print run and anybody who says it is doesn't have a clue.

[valiantman]

29 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Comichron estimates that 7266 copies were "Shipped to North American Comics Shops Based on Reports from Diamond Comic Distributors" and nothing more.

Just adding (a tiny bit) to the discussion...

Comichron estimates copies were "Shipped to North American Comics Shops Based on Reports from Diamond Comic Distributors in the Month Reported" and nothing more.

Big-Two books often make the list the next month because they sold enough additional copies to make the list... but additional copies for all publishers are regularly sold in the weeks and months after the reported (first month) Comichron number.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

 Did you miss the part I bolded?

Comichron estimates that 7266 copies were "Shipped to North American Comics Shops Based on Reports from Diamond Comic Distributors" and nothing more. JJM doesn't guess how many copies were shipped out of North America, nor how many copies went to the creators.

Unless those numbers come from somebody relevant (like Kirkman), they are not data. Anybody can publish random numbers.

I think RMA is way overstating the discrepancy by suggesting that 7266 may only be half the print run, but 7266 is absolutely NOT the print run and anybody who says it is doesn't have a clue.

This.

Except the last sentence.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

 

Still, seems a bit disingenuous to disregard the "copies ordered" when there's a hard number listed for the book just a few posts after you use the Cap City numbers for early McFarlane ASM to make a point.

 

Sure, I get that it seems that way to some people...until you apply reason and logic to the situation. I've already explained both the proper use AND misuse of these numbers. 

Cap City numbers are, themselves, estimates. You ever notice how they're all rounded off to the nearest hundred? That's on purpose. They are useful numbers to broadly estimate what was ordered, what was distributed, what may exist. Trying to use EITHER Cap City OR Diamond to come up with precise numbers about anything is the distinction that you never see me, and those like me, making. 

Distinction matters. There are proper ways...and there are IMproper ways...to use those numbers. Using the numbers, in and of themselves, is neither proper nor improper. It is HOW you use them that makes all the difference in the world. In other words...using Cap City numbers to "make a point" depends entirely on what point you're trying to make.

3 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

You're of course entitled to suggest that the true print run may be double or more than that...but such an assertion puts the onus on you to back up, not us.

Either we trust the listed Cap City / Diamond / etc. published data across the board or we do not.

You can't pick and choose.

Who is "us"? Is there more than one person who uses the Gatsby77 account...?

I trust the Cap City/Diamond numbers to the extent they should be trusted. Those numbers represent very specific things, and using those numbers outside of those very specific things is a MISuse of those numbers. I will say it again: "I suspect" makes whatever follows a qualified statement...not a claim. That is what I suspect is true, based on personal experience with both Kirkman, the rest of Skybound (whose offices are about 35 minutes from where I live), and those who have dealt with Walking Dead since at or near the beginning. I have not made a claim. It is what I suspect, what I believe, is true.

No one is "picking and choosing" anything, and suggesting that's the case means you don't understand that there's a difference between the proper understanding and use of those numbers, and the IMproper understanding and use of those numbers.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Just adding (a tiny bit) to the discussion...

Comichron estimates copies were "Shipped to North American Comics Shops Based on Reports from Diamond Comic Distributors in the Month Reported" and nothing more.

Big-Two books often make the list the next month because they sold enough additional copies to make the list... but additional copies for all publishers are regularly sold in the weeks and months after the reported (first month) Comichron number.

Great point, and another point that has been made on these boards quite a bit in the past. Proper understanding and use of Comichron numbers is perfectly valid. Improper understanding and use, not so much.

[LordRahl]

22 hours ago, Mercury Man said:

1969

Silver Surfer 4

2,453

Has it ever been proven this was somehow a lower print or harder to find (or part of a semi-trailer that was stolen and never found again as I heard somewhere)?   Seems like plenty survived at that number. 

 

 

The census certainly doesn't seem to bear out that it's any harder to find than the surrounding issues. There are roughly 800 more 1's graded which you would expect as it's a #1 and likely was collected more and also it's a more expensive book which usually leads to more submissions. The #4 has considerably more copies graded than 2 or 3, which again you'd expect given that 4 is more valuable. Of course the CGC census isn't necessarily a good way to determine scarcity but it is an indicator and it indicates that this book is on par with the surrounding issues in the run.

[Bronty]

Good discussion.   IMO the relative scarcity of ASM 300 in 9.8 doesn't have to do with the print run, its about:

- black front cover (well, spine)

- black BACK cover too (for those spine ticks that go onto the reverse

- most importantly, it had a lot of rough cuts on the right hand side.   Many copies with perfect spines have wavy right hand edges and at least back in the day, CGC used to give those 9.6s instead of 9.8s.   I haven't submitted one or paid attention in many years so maybe that's not true anymore (?) but finding one with a perfect right hand edge is harder than you'd think

Edited June 16, 2018 by Bronty

[Buzzetta]

In a way I am kind of proud that I still have yet to own a copy of NM98.  

 

@RockMyAmadeus is correct that the hoarding of NM98 far exceeded that of ASM 300 but there were a lot of people that were putting a few copies of that book away.  I remember as a 12-13 year old buying a few copies thinking it would help pay for a car one day. 

Remember that in the year prior to ASM 300, the Hobgoblin was unmasked, Peter Parker proposes and marries Mary Jane, Spider-man was shot and killed, and then this guy McFarlane came around.  All of the issues leading up to 300 were must reads at the time.  I remember as a kid being mesmerized by the art because it was the first time I saw something 'different'.  I think it was the webbing that stood out the most for me.  300 was also a milestone issue and I think I bought a few copies NOT because of Venom but because it was a "100" issue which was still considered important.  ASM 100 had been popular in the collecting circles and even in 1988, issue 200 was special (if I recall correctly) so why shouldn't I buy a few copies of 300. 

 

Another edit... At the time Venom was cool to me but it was just another character.  It wasn't the Hobgoblin.  I don't think it was until about a little later in the series... by 316 with that crazy McFarlane cover of Venom that the character really started to spark my interest. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Buzzetta