Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[Number 6]

25 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I think what people mean when they say to treat a PGX like a raw book is that buying one is basically a coin toss (although realistically your odds are better than a coin toss).

Yes, but shouldn’t the seller equally view selling a PGX book as a “coin toss” that he’ll have some kind of problem like this? 

The chances he’ll have this problem with a PGX book are far, far greater than a CGC book. 

And couldn’t the argument that the buyer is trying to “get more than he’s paying for” also apply to the seller of a PGX book?

If the seller is trying to squeeze out a slab premium - even if it’s less of a premium than for a CGC copy - for a book that in good conscience he know’s a buyer really should be treating like a raw copy, than isn’t the seller also trying to get more than the book’s actually worth?

What seller doesn’t know of PGX’s rep? If, for no other reason, than that they sell for comparable CGC copies should be a clue. 

How much “piece of mind” can a seller really argue that he’s offering a buyer by selling a PGX slab?  Enough to completely absolve the seller if anything turns out to be wrong?

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, Number 6 said:

Yes, but shouldn’t the seller equally view selling a PGX book as a “coin toss” that he’ll have some kind of problem like this? 

The chances he’ll have this problem with a PGX book are far, far greater than a CGC book. 

And couldn’t the argument that the buyer is trying to “get more than he’s paying for” also apply to the seller of a PGX book?

If the seller is trying to squeeze out a slab premium - even if it’s less of a premium than for a CGC copy - for a book that in good conscience he know’s a buyer really should be treating like a raw copy, than isn’t the seller also trying to get more than the book’s actually worth?

What seller doesn’t know of PGX’s rep? If, for no other reason, than that they sell for comparable CGC copies should be a clue. 

How much “piece of mind” can a seller really argue that he’s offering a buyer by selling a PGX slab?  Enough to completely absolve the seller if anything turns out to be wrong?

That's why I stated that what both the seller and buyer know (or rather knew) about PGX should be weighed.

Ultimately, the market tries to get as much as they can for a product and the buyer wants the best deal possible. Capitalism doesn't have any goodwill.

And we come back to buyer beware.

[Lazyboy]

9 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

Your stance on this topic leads to possibilities that will utterly destroy the encapsulated model that is a benefit to our comic collecting hobby/ business. The encapsulated model is a 3rd party grade that establishes a circumstance where the seller and the buyer can both agree in advance of the transaction that the book is the grade as stated on the label and it assists in trade because it takes the subjectivity of grading between 2 different individuals out of the equation. The seller is not responsible for the grade in the transaction because you the buyer are relying on and accepting in advance of your purchase the grade provided by the 3rd party.

Lets add a further example of what you are advocating:

you sell me a CGC 7.0 copy of a book. Once I receive it I send the slab in to get it graded again, and it comes back a 6.0. As the buyer I did nothing but resubmit the book, in this case I didn't even open the 7.0 slab. By your "rules" you did not sell me the book I purchased which was a 7.0 copy of the book. I want my money back please because you profited from the exchange and in effect I now have 3rd party "professional and industry accepted" proof that you did not sell me a 7.0 and it was an erroneous evaluation by YOU the seller that you directly benefited from.

The 3rd party grade has to continue to be an accepted parameter by which 2 people can complete a comic transaction or it ceases to be of any value.

 

The grade is an opinion that can change even without any modification to the book. That is a risk of which buyers should be aware. Missing pages are a fact that will not change. The buyer has to rely on the information and opinions provided. If pertinent facts are absent and impossible for the buyer to know before purchase and proper examination, the seller has to be held responsible unless another entity takes responsibility or the buyer chooses not to pursue the matter.

Comics were never meant to be sealed in cases which make them unavailable for proper examination. It's fine for coins and cards, which are essentially two-dimensional objects, but most of a comic is hidden in a sealed case, which enables problems like this.

[VintageComics]

29 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

To call this a gray area is an understatement.

[Number 6]

And before people make the mistake that I’m champing at the bit to crack slabs and force returns, let me be clear:

I saw the point RMA was making and, in order to explain how I could see his point, I engaged in a hypothetical. 

The problem with the hypothetical is it involves a lot of things that I would never actually do. 

To be the seller here I would have to send a book to PGX for grading...which I would never ever do. 

Or buy a PGX book...which I most likely would never do. 

In this case, it would involving buying a PGX book worth several hundred dollars...which I would never, ever, ever do. 

And then I would take this book and flip it on eBay...which I would never, ever, ever, EVER do unless I first cracked it out, examined it for myself, and if I thought it was worth it, send it to CGC for grading before selling. 

Likewise, if I were to try and put myself in the place of the buyer, I would have to start with “so I paid several hundred dollars for a PGX book...” ...again, which I would never, ever, ever do. (no disrespect to the OP intended)

If - and I stress IF - I bought a PGX book it would, at most it would be a $30-40 book. If, when I cracked it out, I found a problem like missing pages, I wouldn’t go after the seller for a book in that range. I’d chalk it up to a stupid tax and move on, having learned my lesson. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Number 6

[mattn792]

3 hours ago, Ottobord said:

But what happens to the comic off camera?  The more you push back against my idea the more I think it's a good one. CGC could create a slab that could only be opened by a CGC representative. Perhaps with a special key.  The raw comic can then be inspected and returned to the undamaged but locked slab all under the supervision of the representative.  They could roll out the service at the conventions they attend.  Or the other solution is buyers could notify and request permission of their sellers that they intend to break open the slabs they purchase and there is a slim possibility that the comic might be returned. To which this seller would say. NO

The more I push back, the more moronic you make this idea.  A re-lockable slab with a special key?  Yeah, great idea.  So how does that work?  One master key for all slabs?  One unique key per slab?  And lord help us once some nefarious entrepreneur out there figures out how to crack the lock undetected.  Fraud would be astronomical and third party grading would be rendered completely worthless were a re-usable slab ever implemented.

And conventions already offer a slab cracking service.  We call it find someone at the CGC booth that hopefully has a little time on their hands, and bring the rep along to the seller's booth.  This is assuming Mr. Seller doesn't tell you to go have relations with yourself if you ask to crack the book before purchasing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

Lets add a further example of what you are advocating:

you sell me a CGC 7.0 copy of a book. Once I receive it I send the slab in to get it graded again, and it comes back a 6.0. As the buyer I did nothing but resubmit the book, in this case I didn't even open the 7.0 slab. By your "rules" you did not sell me the book I purchased which was a 7.0 copy of the book. I want my money back please because you profited from the exchange and in effect I now have 3rd party "professional and industry accepted" proof that you did not sell me a 7.0 and it was an erroneous evaluation by YOU the seller that you directly benefited from.

The 3rd party grade has to continue to be an accepted parameter by which 2 people can complete a comic transaction or it ceases to be of any value.

Grading is subjective. You are not expressing my "rules", nor did I "advocate" anything that you're suggesting here. It's nothing even remotely close to what I've said, which is why Lazyboy reacted with a "confused" reaction. You've invented a scenario that bears no resemblance to anything I've said.

Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not. 

That's the sum of it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

38 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

The grade is an opinion that can change even without any modification to the book. That is a risk of which buyers should be aware. Missing pages are a fact that will not change. The buyer has to rely on the information and opinions provided. If pertinent facts are absent and impossible for the buyer to know before purchase and proper examination, the seller has to be held responsible unless another entity takes responsibility or the buyer chooses not to pursue the matter.

Comics were never meant to be sealed in cases which make them unavailable for proper examination. It's fine for coins and cards, which are essentially two-dimensional objects, but most of a comic is hidden in a sealed case, which enables problems like this.

This sums it up quite well.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, Callaway29 said:

If I was the seller, I'd be PO'd if someone tried to return a book they cracked out.

If I was the buyer, I'd be upset with PGX (and probably myself).

The thought would never cross my mind to hold the seller liable...sometimes life isn't fair. Instead of passing the self-inflicted misfortune to someone else, I'd take it like a man...

I do find it fascinating how easy people find it to tell the buyer to suck up a couple thousand dollar loss, when....provided the buyer did what he claimed (and, as usual, the buyer hasn't come back to the thread that I've seen) is accurate...the buyer didn't do anything wrong, and several things right, such as sending it to an independent appraiser to determine if the original appraisal was relatively accurate (since grading...not pages missing...is subjective.)

 

[Skeptic_Kepp]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not. 

Does anyone have a count of how many times this point has been made, and also, how many times it's been completely ignored?

Edited August 10, 2018 by Skeptic_Kepp
Needed a meme.

[mattn792]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Grading is subjective. You are not expressing my "rules", nor did I "advocate" anything that you're suggesting here. It's nothing even remotely close to what I've said, which is why Lazyboy reacted with a "confused" reaction. You've invented a scenario that bears no resemblance to anything I've said.

Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not. 

That's the sum of it.

I'd like to propose a solution even worse than Ottobord's re-lockable slab -- sealed slab packs.  Much like the trading card industry already does, CGC can introduce a significant degree of randomness to collecting. 

No more submissions, no more chasing signatures, and best of all, no more "item not as described" returns!  CGC just grades and gets whatever books they want signed for you.  Forget all the legwork, now you can simply go down to the LCS, buy your sealed pack of five slabs distributed straight from CGC, and see what you get.  Will it be five 4.0 (R) copies of Marvel Comics Presents #51?  A 7.5 blue label Detective Comics #31?  Who's to say?  That's the fun of it!

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Callaway29 said:

It's not that complicated to me, either. Yet our opinions still differ...

If you buy a used car from an individual, drive it for 50K miles (the equivalent of cracking a slab), and discover a manufacturing defect...do you go to the person who sold it to you and ask them to fix it? No, you expect a reputable manufacturer to issue a recall. Unfortunately, in this instance the manufacturer isn't reputable...so you're screwed. But you knew, and took, that risk when you bought the car, which was probably cheaper due to the poor reputation of the maker...

Driving a car 50,000 miles is nothing even remotely equivalent to cracking a slab.

The rest of the analogy necessarily fails.

[seanfingh]

8 minutes ago, Skeptic_Kepp said:

Does anyone have a count of how many times this point has been made, and also, how many times it's been completely ignored?

This is excellent

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, DanCooper said:

On a separate, but related PGX note, for those who have the latest Overstreet Guide (#48), check out Jamie Newbold's  market report on page 173 concerning a demonstration Ken Dyber of Cloud 9 Comics did at last year's SDCC with PGX cases - cracking, swapping inner wells and labels and reassembling with no noticeable tampering.

Just today, I opened an old label CGC slab and had the same result. I wasn't even trying to preserve the case but with a slight twist of a flat head screwdriver I popped two posts with no cracks, clean. The inner well opened without using scissors, just peeled right off. Before the latest design, CGC slabs weren't any better either. 

[Artboy99]

8 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Grading is subjective. You are not expressing my "rules", nor did I "advocate" anything that you're suggesting here. It's nothing even remotely close to what I've said, which is why Lazyboy reacted with a "confused" reaction. You've invented a scenario that bears no resemblance to anything I've said.

Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not. 

That's the sum of it.

convenient of you to simply disregard the invented scenario. It is EXACTLY what has happened: a slab was opened after it was received and then changed to something other than what was purchased.

The book after the encapsulation was opened became something else. Whether it is missing pages, or now a change in grade the scenario is the same: it is no longer what was purchased. Once the slab is opened it's state has changed.

I feel awful for the buyer/ OP in this circumstance. He didn't get what he paid for and I absolutely agree with that. But let's answer his question here: what can he do? Can he ask the seller for a refund? If you answer yes to this, then my invented scenario also applies and is subject to a refund and then the entire encapsulation system becomes irrelevant.

I do hope the OP tries to go after PGX to get some financial restitution.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Artboy99 said:

convenient of you to simply disregard the invented scenario. It is EXACTLY what has happened: a slab was opened after it was received and then changed to something other than what was purchased.

It's not anything that happened. Assuming...gotta remember the caveats!...that the buyer did what they said, the book didn't change at all.

Slabs are not inviolate "packages." It is an appraisal, an opinion of condition, and nothing more. The buyer took the book out of the case of that appraiser, and put it in the case of another appraiser. The book is what matters, not the slab.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

I do hope the OP tries to go after PGX to get some financial restitution.

Why? PGX bears no responsibility..ethically or legally...in this transaction for anything other than the fee they charged for their worthless opinion. They didn't tear the pages out. They didn't submit a book with torn out pages to themselves. They didn't benefit from their mistake.

They aren't responsible, outside of what I just mentioned.

[Artboy99]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

Why? PGX bears no responsibility..ethically or legally...in this transaction for anything other than the fee they charged for their worthless opinion. They didn't tear the pages out. They didn't submit a book with torn out pages to themselves. They didn't benefit from their mistake.

They aren't responsible, outside of what I just mentioned.

interesting point of view.

You cant prove the seller tore the pages out either. Nor can you prove he knowingly sold a book without pages.

[VintageComics]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's not anything that happened. Assuming...gotta remember the caveats!...that the buyer did what they said, the book didn't change at all.

Slabs are not inviolate "packages." It is an appraisal, an opinion of condition, and nothing more. The buyer took the book out of the case of that appraiser, and put it in the case of another appraiser. The book is what matters, not the slab.

 

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Why? PGX bears no responsibility..ethically or legally...in this transaction for anything other than the fee they charged for their worthless opinion. They didn't tear the pages out. They didn't submit a book with torn out pages to themselves. They didn't benefit from their mistake.

They aren't responsible, outside of what I just mentioned.

Because the opinion is not just about grade. It's about authenticity, and restoration, and completeness AND grade.

[seanfingh]

8 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

 

Because the opinion is not just about grade. It's about authenticity, and restoration, and completeness AND grade.

This is from PGX's website - it is notably silent about errors relating to completeness of the book, probably because in many jurisdictions it violates contract jurisprudence to attempt to negotiate away your liability for negligence prior to undertaking the services for which you are being paid.

PGX’s grading is based on the PGX Grading Standards developed by PGX and the opinions of the PGX Grading Team and does not guarantee complete acceptance in the marketplace. The assigned grade represents our opinion, as grading can be subjective. A restoration check is made on every book that comes through PGX. Every effort is made to detect restoration, but we do not guarantee the result.