Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[VintageComics]

5 minutes ago, Park said:

It is not misfortune. This isn't that complicated.

The buyer did not receive what he was sold. He bought a PGX 4.5. A book missing 2 pages is not a 4.5 even by PGx's ridiculous standards.

This is not a disagreement over anything subjective like a grade. The book is missing two pages. Black and white. Not what was advertised and not what was sold. 

The buyer is almost certainly hosed because I am not seeing anywhere that he documented anything. The logistics of documenting a book bought in a PGX slab and then sending to CGC seem monumental in any situation. In this particular situation, not much can be done but if I was the buyer I would still contact the seller and let them know.

And RMAs other argument is based in fact as well. The seller benefited from this (whether he had any idea or not is irrelevant) error as well. Benefitting from something being materially  and tangibly different (pages missing) is worlds apart from an opinion (grading). 

This particular buyer in this situation is hosed because he cannot provide any sort of proof (that I have seen. Maybe I missed it?) that he documented it is the same book. As a seller, I would be hard pressed to be that trusting unless it was a long time customer that I knew and trusted.

Chrisco also brought up the time frame as well. When is it too late? There are quite a few sellers who have taken back books months later when resto was discovered. I am sure it is like I stated above with repeat customers they trusted. 

In this situation, I think the OP is probably hoses as it is gonna be hard to prove that it is the same book. Just because PGX is a joke (although they are still in business) doesn't absolve the seller of responsibility.

The seller sold a book that was tangibly different than what the buyer received. Removing the book from the holder removes PGX's (or CGC's) opinion of the grade of the book within. Not whether it is complete or not. That is two different worlds.

 

 

It would still be cool if a lawyer could chime in with how this would play out in the real world using the actual law and not just comic book message board opinions.

I'd guess that ultimately the problem would need to be resolved between PGX and the original submitter, who possibly may (or may not) have knowingly submitted the book with the two missing pages and won the lottery in this case.

I know a few lawyers have posted in the thread but they've declined to comment.

Anyone?

@KPR Comics

@Foolkiller

[Callaway29]

39 minutes ago, Park said:

It is not misfortune. This isn't that complicated.

The buyer did not receive what he was sold. He bought a PGX 4.5. A book missing 2 pages is not a 4.5 even by PGx's ridiculous standards.

This is not a disagreement over anything subjective like a grade. The book is missing two pages. Black and white. Not what was advertised and not what was sold. 

The buyer is almost certainly hosed because I am not seeing anywhere that he documented anything. The logistics of documenting a book bought in a PGX slab and then sending to CGC seem monumental in any situation. In this particular situation, not much can be done but if I was the buyer I would still contact the seller and let them know.

And RMAs other argument is based in fact as well. The seller benefited from this (whether he had any idea or not is irrelevant) error as well. Benefitting from something being materially  and tangibly different (pages missing) is worlds apart from an opinion (grading). 

This particular buyer in this situation is hosed because he cannot provide any sort of proof (that I have seen. Maybe I missed it?) that he documented it is the same book. As a seller, I would be hard pressed to be that trusting unless it was a long time customer that I knew and trusted.

Chrisco also brought up the time frame as well. When is it too late? There are quite a few sellers who have taken back books months later when resto was discovered. I am sure it is like I stated above with repeat customers they trusted. 

In this situation, I think the OP is probably hoses as it is gonna be hard to prove that it is the same book. Just because PGX is a joke (although they are still in business) doesn't absolve the seller of responsibility.

The seller sold a book that was tangibly different than what the buyer received. Removing the book from the holder removes PGX's (or CGC's) opinion of the grade of the book within. Not whether it is complete or not. That is two different worlds.

 

 

It's not that complicated to me, either. Yet our opinions still differ...

If you buy a used car from an individual, drive it for 50K miles (the equivalent of cracking a slab), and discover a manufacturing defect...do you go to the person who sold it to you and ask them to fix it? No, you expect a reputable manufacturer to issue a recall. Unfortunately, in this instance the manufacturer isn't reputable...so you're screwed. But you knew, and took, that risk when you bought the car, which was probably cheaper due to the poor reputation of the maker...

Edited August 10, 2018 by Callaway29
readability

[jeffreyk]

1 hour ago, Callaway29 said:

If I was the seller, I'd be PO'd if someone tried to return a book they cracked out.

If I was the buyer, I'd be upset with PGX (and probably myself).

The thought would never cross my mind to hold the seller liable...sometimes life isn't fair. Instead of passing the self-inflicted misfortune to someone else, I'd take it like a man...

I agree with you.  Once the book is cracked out it cannot be returned to the seller. 

[Park]

28 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

It would still be cool if a lawyer could chime in with how this would play out in the real world using the actual law and not just comic book message board opinions.

I'd guess that ultimately the problem would need to be resolved between PGX and the original submitter, who possibly may (or may not) have knowingly submitted the book with the two missing pages and won the lottery in this case.

I know a few lawyers have posted in the thread but they've declined to comment.

Anyone?

@KPR Comics

@Foolkiller

Absolutely.

I am just responding to the thought that this is a buyer beware situation and the seller has zero culpability. 

The seller absolutely does. He made more money than he would have. The argument of the seller making more money due to a grade being different is not the same as a book missing two pages. 

And if he bought it slabbed, the previous seller is in the same boat.

Provable,able to be enforced, worth it? Who knows but buyer beware, he should have known, it's PGX, tough nuts is not the case in this situation.

 

[Park]

26 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

It's not that complicated to me, either. Yet our opinions still differ...

If you buy a used car from an individual, drive it for 50K miles (the equivalent of cracking a slab), and discover a manufacturing defect...do you go to the person who sold it to you and ask them to fix it? No, you expect a reputable manufacturer to issue a recall. Unfortunately, in this instance the manufacturer isn't reputable...so you're screwed. But you knew, and took, that risk when you bought the car, which was probably cheaper due to the poor reputation of the maker...

I get why people use analogies but there isn't a need here.

The book was missing two pages. It was missing two pages when it went into the slab. It was missing two pages when slabbed. It was missing two pages.

Driving a used car 50,000 miles is in no way the equivalent of cracking the slab. It would be the equivalent of buying the used car and finding out it is missing something in the engine that makes the car work and therefore what you paid for it.

[VintageComics]

3 minutes ago, Park said:

I am just responding to the thought that this is a buyer beware situation and the seller has zero culpability. 

The seller absolutely does. He made more money than he would have. The argument of the seller making more money due to a grade being different is not the same as a book missing two pages. 

And if he bought it slabbed, the previous seller is in the same boat.

Provable,able to be enforced, worth it? Who knows but buyer beware, he should have known, it's PGX, tough nuts is not the case in this situation.

And yet, I don't know if I would return the book if I were in the OP's position, knowing what I know about the various certification companies out there.

There are different levels of knowing, so ultimately, in a legal case is PGX's reputation a valid enough argument to absolve the seller?

21 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

It's not that complicated to me, either. Yet our opinions still differ...

If you buy a used car from an individual, drive it for 50K miles (the equivalent of cracking a slab), and discover a manufacturing defect...do you go to the person who sold it to you and ask them to fix it? No, you expect a reputable manufacturer to issue a recall. Unfortunately, in this instance the manufacturer isn't reputable...so you're screwed. But you knew, and took, that risk when you bought the car, which was probably cheaper due to the poor reputation of the maker...

I think I am in this camp too.

You generally get what you pay for and when you scrape around looking for a deal the odds increase greatly that you are not going to get a quality product.

There's definitely an unspoken double standard in society. People want top shelf material but rarely want to pay for it. If they score huge (whatever the product) they chalk it up as a win. But if they lose they look for someone to blame. There's very little good will in commerce and capitalism. 

Legally, this might fall on whether the OP knew what he was getting into when buying a PGX slab. If he was fishing for a diamond in the rough, hoping to score and lost he definitely should just take this as a valuable learning experience and move on.

If the OP had no idea and thought he was buying a certified book with the expectation that it would be equal to other certification companies then I can see how legally the original submitter and ultimately PGX would be culpable.

[Artboy99]

1 minute ago, Park said:

I get why people use analogies but there isn't a need here.

The book was missing two pages. It was missing two pages when it went into the slab. It was missing two pages when slabbed. It was missing two pages.

Driving a used car 50,000 miles is in no way the equivalent of cracking the slab. It would be the equivalent of buying the used car and finding out it is missing something in the engine that makes the car work and therefore what you paid for it.

the issue is where does responsibility lie?

When it comes to certified items it is the buyer who makes the choice to purchase the certified item. 

If the buyer wanted a circumstance where he can question the grade and therefore the integrity of the seller then buy a raw book. I keep saying it: when you buy an encapsulated book you the buyer are accepting the peace of mind of knowing someone other than the seller has given the grade. In most cases that grade is given by someone with reputation to support the grade. 

 

[VintageComics]

3 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

11 minutes ago, Park said:

I get why people use analogies but there isn't a need here.

The book was missing two pages. It was missing two pages when it went into the slab. It was missing two pages when slabbed. It was missing two pages.

Driving a used car 50,000 miles is in no way the equivalent of cracking the slab. It would be the equivalent of buying the used car and finding out it is missing something in the engine that makes the car work and therefore what you paid for it.

the issue is where does responsibility lie?

When it comes to certified items it is the buyer who makes the choice to purchase the certified item. 

If the buyer wanted a circumstance where he can question the grade and therefore the integrity of the seller then buy a raw book. I keep saying it: when you buy an encapsulated book you the buyer are accepting the peace of mind of knowing someone other than the seller has given the grade. In most cases that grade is given by someone with reputation to support the grade. 

Right.

Let's say the used car is inspected by another company and they sign off on it and the car goes through several sets of hands.

You'd have to track down the original owner who had the car certified and have him take it up with the person who inspected the car and signed off on it. Am I correct?

 

[DanCooper]

On a separate, but related PGX note, for those who have the latest Overstreet Guide (#48), check out Jamie Newbold's  market report on page 173 concerning a demonstration Ken Dyber of Cloud 9 Comics did at last year's SDCC with PGX cases - cracking, swapping inner wells and labels and reassembling with no noticeable tampering.

[Park]

2 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

And yet, I don't know if I would return the book if I were in the OP's position, knowing what I know about the various certification companies out there.

There are different levels of knowing, so ultimately, in a legal case is PGX's reputation a valid enough argument to absolve the seller?

I think I am in this camp too.

You generally get what you pay for and when you scrape around looking for a deal the odds increase greatly that you are not going to get a quality product.

There's definitely an unspoken double standard in society. People want top shelf material but rarely want to pay for it. If they score huge (whatever the product) they chalk it up as a win. But if they lose they look for someone to blame. There's very little good will in commerce and capitalism. 

Legally, this might fall on whether the OP knew what he was getting into when buying a PGX slab. If he was fishing for a diamond in the rough, hoping to score and lost he definitely should just take this as a valuable learning experience and move on.

If the OP had no idea and thought he was buying a certified book with the expectation that it would be equal to other certification companies then I can see how legally the original submitter and ultimately PGX would be culpable.

The legalities I know would be hard to prove. No question. That is not what I am saying.

I cannot buy into the fact that PGX's opinion (they didn't manufacture anything) is that the book is a 4.5 with missing pages.

PGX (most likely) missed the two missing pages. The seller may or may not be the original submitter but it doesn't matter they sold a book with two missing pages. Putting it in a case doesn't make that part of the equation disappear.

If I were looking to buy a PGX book, there are a thousand ways to try to protect yourself and many ways in this thread. Heck, what chrisco had seems absurd but a great way to protect yourself. Cool.

That doesn't have much to do with whether or not the seller sold a book with two missing pages. 

Heck half of the people in here have stated to treat the PGX book like a raw book. Who in holy hell wouldn't be returning a raw book with two missing pages? No one.

PGX sucks. The seller didn't know. The buyer didn't look. All may be true. 

The seller still sold a book missing two pages and is responsible in this transaction.

 

[VintageComics]

2 minutes ago, Park said:

PGX sucks. The seller didn't know. 

The seller still sold a book missing two pages and is responsible in this transaction.

 

I want to restate that I sympathize with all parties involved (including PGX as nobody likes being raked over the coals). It's a situation that sucks and my posts are not meant to be a witch hunt or to lay blame.

Legally, I think this might come down to whether either the seller or the buyer knew about PGX's reputation.

I think this might take precedence over who is to blame.

[Park]

8 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

the issue is where does responsibility lie?

When it comes to certified items it is the buyer who makes the choice to purchase the certified item. 

If the buyer wanted a circumstance where he can question the grade and therefore the integrity of the seller then buy a raw book. I keep saying it: when you buy an encapsulated book you the buyer are accepting the peace of mind of knowing someone other than the seller has given the grade. In most cases that grade is given by someone with reputation to support the grade. 

 

The grade, yes. I agree.

This is a book that is missing two pages. PGX sucks but I am fairly certain that two missing pages doesn't equate to a 4.5 even for them. The issue (one of them) is the missing pages and not the grade of 4.5.

But you're right. Where does the responsibility lie? Immediately, the seller. Logically, if one were to go through the motions of pursuing this, that is where you would start.The end responsibility is going to lie with PGX.

Which makes the entire discussion theoretical and mildly interesting because they will almost certainly do f all nothing.

We could come up 97 plausible reasons how they could get out of it.

 

 

[Park]

10 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

On a separate, but related PGX note, for those who have the latest Overstreet Guide (#48), check out Jamie Newbold's  market report on page 173 concerning a demonstration Ken Dyber of Cloud 9 Comics did at last year's SDCC with PGX cases - cracking, swapping inner wells and labels and reassembling with no noticeable tampering.

PGX rests, your Honor.

[seanfingh]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[Park]

I have missed "via imageflip meme generator".

[NoMan]

32 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

And yet, I don't know if I would return the book if I were in the OP's position, knowing what I know about the various certification companies out there.

There are different levels of knowing, so ultimately, in a legal case is PGX's reputation a valid enough argument to absolve the seller?

I think I am in this camp too.

You generally get what you pay for and when you scrape around looking for a deal the odds increase greatly that you are not going to get a quality product.

There's definitely an unspoken double standard in society. People want top shelf material but rarely want to pay for it. If they score huge (whatever the product) they chalk it up as a win. But if they lose they look for someone to blame. There's very little good will in commerce and capitalism. 

Legally, this might fall on whether the OP knew what he was getting into when buying a PGX slab. If he was fishing for a diamond in the rough, hoping to score and lost he definitely should just take this as a valuable learning experience and move on.

If the OP had no idea and thought he was buying a certified book with the expectation that it would be equal to other certification companies then I can see how legally the original submitter and ultimately PGX would be culpable.

+1

[Number 6]

17 minutes ago, Park said:

 

Heck half of the people in here have stated to treat the PGX book like a raw book. Who in holy hell wouldn't be returning a raw book with two missing pages? No one.

PGX sucks. The seller didn't know. The buyer didn't look. All may be true. 

The seller still sold a book missing two pages and is responsible in this transaction.

 

That raises an interesting point:

On the one hand we argue that buyers should treat PGX like buying a raw comic. 

On the other hand, we argue that seller’s should be able to treat PGX like any other 3rd party graded book - Buyer is buying “piece of mind” therefore seller get’s to wash his hands once book is delivered. 

[VintageComics]

3 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

That raises an interesting point:

On the one hand we argue that buyers should treat PGX like buying a raw comic. 

On the other hand, we argue that seller’s should be able to treat PGX like any other 3rd party graded book - Buyer is buying “piece of mind” therefore seller get’s to wash his hands once book is delivered. 

I think what people mean when they say to treat a PGX like a raw book is that buying one is basically a coin toss (although realistically your odds are better than a coin toss).

[VintageComics]

8 minutes ago, Park said:

I have missed "via imageflip meme generator".

15 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

via Imgflip Meme Generator

I'm guessing this is a very respectful poke at me. Thank you for restraining yourself, lawyer man.

Where the law is concerned, wouldn't the reputation of PGX have any effect on the outcome?

[seanfingh]

To call this a gray area is an understatement. No one would want to walk through the morass of disclaimers, let alone try to explain comic collecting and grades to a trier of fact without a retainer more than the book is worth.  So, yeah, the only lawyer you are going to get an opinion from is Saul.