Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[woowoo]

Just now, HENRYSPENCER said:

Unless PGX agrees to hand out grades for X amount of dollars I’m not sure how they're even a viable operation at this point.  You want the cheaper alternative to CGC with no membership fees go to CBCS.  Anything recently graded by PGX at this point should automatically be completely suspect.  

I would have loved to have gone to CGC but time was a big problem. I wanted a house here in California and prices where way down and I only got a 17k bid on my vg+ Tec 27 ungraded so I drove to them in 7 hours and got the books graded and back in my hands in 3 hours and drove back. I did not really care what grade they gave me on the Tec 27 the book with Ex resto was going to sell for the same price if it was a 2.0 or 4.0 IMO.

I do know they are complete and I could crack them out any time with no problem on a book like Tec 1 and 27 Bat 1 when they have been heavily restored you buy the book not the grade I would.

[RockMyAmadeus]

19 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

You cant prove the seller tore the pages out either. Nor can you prove he knowingly sold a book without pages.

Not relevant. It doesn't matter who tore the pages out; only that they were. And it doesn't matter whether the seller knew about it or not; he was the sole beneficiary of the result of the mistake. Once the mistake is discovered, the seller has to "make good" since he...and he alone (again, assuming he was the submitter)...benefited from this mistake. Unless PGX was involved in a conspiracy to commit fraud, then they shoulder no financial burden for this mistake, other than possibly the fees they were paid, because they did not benefit in any way from it. 

[jsilverjanet]

1 hour ago, Harley Troy said:

1 hour ago, Artboy99 said:

Agreed!

Agreed. 

+1

[RockMyAmadeus]

16 hours ago, miraclemet said:

at this point i wish this thread was missing a few pages...

Me too. Probably different pages from yours, though.

[Artboy99]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Not relevant. It doesn't matter who tore the pages out; only that they were. And it doesn't matter whether the seller knew about it or not; he was the sole beneficiary of the result of the mistake. Once the mistake is discovered, the seller has to "make good" since he...and he alone (again, assuming he was the submitter)...benefited from this mistake. Unless PGX was involved in a conspiracy to commit fraud, then they shoulder no financial burden for this mistake, other than possibly the fees they were paid, because they did not benefit in any way from it. 

good morning!

I was wondering where you were.

[RockMyAmadeus]

16 hours ago, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

CGC makes mistakes too.  No grading company is infallible.

I know someone who sent in a book around April of last year.  CGC missed the fact that the first four wraps were duplicated.  He even indicated it with a sticker on the bag the book was in when shipped.

CGC indicates on their website...

So, this book passed through 2 restoration checks and 2 gradings, yet the extra wraps were not noticed.

Mistakes happen.  There is always a risk associated with buying a book that you cannot inspect yourself.

Unless you mitigate that risk...as this buyer did...by sending the book out to be inspected by another appraiser, or simply inspect it yourself.

The argument for "cracking all PGX slabs upon receipt" has probably gotten a lot more advocates because of this situation.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

good morning!

I was wondering where you were.

Good afternoon!

I'm right here.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

18 hours ago, Number 6 said:

Agreed. Since the PGX slab prevents examination while affording the seller the implied protections of offering a 3rd party graded book, PGX books shouldn’t be viewed as “like buying raw; they should be viewed as WORSE than buying raw. 

Correct. Because of the industry-wide....but thoroughly and totally erroneous...idea that slab sellers are selling a "package", rather than a comic with an opinion attached to it, if sellers are going to insist that their PGX slabs CANNOT be cracked...which, as a layman, I believe is totally and completely unenforceable legally....then they should be sold at a substantial discount from even RAW books, since there is a measure of pressure assumed and implied to not be able to inspect the item for yourself, or send it to anyone else to inspect, since that would mean you weren't "returning what you purchased."

This is the logical end result of "you can't crack open a slab."

Of course (planting tongue firmly in cheek)...PGX COULD offer an "independent inspection" service, whereby you took a book certified by them, had them open it in your presence, you inspect it, and then have it reslabbed in the exact same slab...you know, totally regardless of what you found.

One can see the absurdity of such a situation, yet this is what is indirectly advocated by the "you can't open the slab!! That makes it no longer what you purchased!!" crowd.

Edited August 11, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Artboy99]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Correct. Because of the industry-wide....but thoroughly and totally erroneous...idea that slab sellers are selling a "package", rather than a comic with an opinion attached to it, if sellers are going to insist that their PGX slabs CANNOT be cracked...which, as a layman, I believe is totally and completely unenforceable legally....then they should be sold at a substantial discount from even RAW books, since there is a measure of pressure assumed and implied to not be able to inspect the item for yourself, or send it to anyone else to inspect, since that would mean you weren't "returning what you purchased."

This is the logical end result of "you can't crack open a slab."

Of course (planting tongue firmly in cheek)...PGX COULD offer an "independent inspection" service, whereby you took a book certified by them, had them open it in your presence, you inspect it, and then have it reslabbed in the exact same slab...you know, totally regardless of what you found.

One can see the absurdity of such a situation, yet this is what is indirectly advocated by the "you can't open the slab!! That invalidates the purchase!!" crowd.

That crowd only says that because the grading companies say that. Once the slab is cracked open all grading companies say it invalidates the grade they assigned.

The buyer is the one who is making the choice to purchase the slab over a raw book because it is 3rd party graded. It eliminates the subjectivity of the grading of the seller and puts the grading solely on the shoulders of the grading company.

[RockMyAmadeus]

15 hours ago, wombat said:

I'm too lazy to go back and look, but did the OP say they were aware of PGX's reputation? Personally I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars without doing some research. 

Again, not a lawyer...but I imagine "you should have KNOWN they were incompetent/fraudulent. Too bad!" is not a defense for shifting the burden of responsibility onto a buyer acting in good faith, or that it allows anyone to benefit at someone else's expense, regardless of who knew what and when.

[Red84]

29 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Unless you mitigate that risk...as this buyer did...by sending the book out to be inspected by another appraiser, or simply inspect it yourself.

The argument for "cracking all PGX slabs upon receipt" has probably gotten a lot more advocates because of this situation.

This had nothing to do with mitigating risk. He sent it to CGC because a CGC graded book garners a higher price. The fact that he immediately sent it to CGC shows that he knew PGX was garbage when he bought it at a discount. Caveat emptor. 

Disclaimer - this is not legal advice. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

That crowd only says that because the grading companies say that. Once the slab is cracked open all grading companies say it invalidates the grade they assigned.

This has already been gone over. CGC doesn't say that. This is an industry perception, not a statement by CGC, as detailed in a previous post.

But...even if they DID say that, the response is "so..? And...?" So it "invalidates" the grade. And? Does that have any effect on the book? Barring damage, the book is exactly the same, is it not? Can it be RE-certified? Of course. Will it maintain the same grade? Maybe, maybe not, but that's because grading is subjective.

10 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

The buyer is the one who is making the choice to purchase the slab over a raw book because it is 3rd party graded. It eliminates the subjectivity of the grading of the seller and puts the grading solely on the shoulders of the grading company.

...which still doesn't mean that any mistake can be made, and the buyer is responsible for the ramifications of that mistake, because "too bad! You knew what we were!" 

And...again...we're not talking about about grading, which is subjective. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, Red84 said:

This had nothing to do with mitigating risk. He sent it to CGC because a CGC graded book garners a higher price. The fact that he immediately sent it to CGC shows that he knew PGX was garbage when he bought it at a discount. Caveat emptor. 

Disclaimer - this is not legal advice. 

No. 

 

 

[Real Elijah Snow]

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No. 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Red84 said:

This had nothing to do with mitigating risk. He sent it to CGC because a CGC graded book garners a higher price. The fact that he immediately sent it to CGC shows that he knew PGX was garbage when he bought it at a discount. Caveat emptor. 

Disclaimer - this is not legal advice. 

Yes. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

19 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

19 hours ago, Callaway29 said:

A counterpoint could be made that it's fascinating how easy people find it to tell the seller to suck up a couple thousand dollars. He would be getting screwed equally. The difference is he didn't actively seek out discovery...which could have resulted in an increase, or decrease, in the book's fair market value.

 

Also, the seller isn't sucking up anything. The book never had value equal to what they received. Plus, they have the same option of going to the person who sold the book to them.

This point ought to be highlighted. The point made by Callaway is incorrect; the seller isn't "sucking up" anything, because the book was never worth what a book without two missing pages would have been. So, no, the seller wouldn't be losing anything, nor would he be "getting screwed." He would simply be getting what he was always entitled to in the first place. The book's fair market value was never...at any time...what that book with all its pages would have been, no matter what other factors (like an increase or decrease in numerical grade) would have impacted it, and no matter who was aware...or not aware...of that fact.

Pretzel logic, for sure.

[wombat]

37 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Again, not a lawyer...but I imagine "you should have KNOWN they were incompetent/fraudulent. Too bad!" is not a defense for shifting the burden of responsibility onto a buyer acting in good faith, or that it allows anyone to benefit at someone else's expense, regardless of who knew what and when.

It goes to common sense and protecting yourself. If a buyer isn't willing to put some effort into looking out for their own best interest then so be it. 

[Larryw7]

16 hours ago, woowoo said:

Glad most here wont buy a pgx book I really would like to keep my Tec 1 and 27 with my bats 1 and did I say I had early Actions also

Get them reslabbed 

 

2 hours ago, woowoo said:

I need a 3rd party grading real fast just to put on ebay they where high $$$ book's. I drove to them with the books I was selling. I had the books since the early 80's and they where restored and looked at when I bought and when they where restored and grade was given by me and the restorer and countless others. The grades they gave me where close to spot on to what everyone who saw the books said including me. 2 smaller books got a .1 down from what I thought and 1 Big book got a .5 jump. This was in 2007 from what I have seen and heard they really went down hill from there. I will add my  that I have bought a few Golden age books that I counted the pages and found out the centerfold was missing  Ducks and some golden age have always been hard for me to get the pages right like sup's and Bat's in the number 30's and 40's

 

Get them reslabbed, cheapskate. Or better yet, crack them out of their tombs and enjoy them.

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, Real Elijah Snow said:

23 minutes ago, Red84 said:

This had nothing to do with mitigating risk. He sent it to CGC because a CGC graded book garners a higher price. The fact that he immediately sent it to CGC shows that he knew PGX was garbage when he bought it at a discount. Caveat emptor. 

Disclaimer - this is not legal advice. 

Yes. 

No. Repeating it doesn't make it so. The motives of the buyer for getting it certified by CGC aren't relevant to the point, which was this:

55 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

17 hours ago, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

There is always a risk associated with buying a book that you cannot inspect yourself.

Unless you mitigate that risk...as this buyer did...by sending the book out to be inspected by another appraiser, or simply inspect it yourself.

This is an actual fact...assuming the buyer has told the truth...of this case. His motives for doing so aren't relevant to this fact.

Did the buyer send it to CGC hoping for an upgrade, as Red84 stated? Possibly. But here's what the buyer actually says:

Quote

Last month, I purchased a PGX graded copy of X-men #1 (the eBayer even said in his description to get it CGC'd). Well...I then submitted it to CGC at SDCC since I prefer their cases. I didn't expect the grading (originally a 4.5) to come back the same, given the subjectiveness of grading. 

So, his stated motive was because the seller suggested (which he did, if not "really") to get it CGCd. Could he have been secretly hoping for an upgrade, and/or higher price? Maybe. We don't know, and stating one way or the other is making an assumption.

But none of it has to do with the fact that the buyer, instead of merely accepting whatever risk was inherent in buying a book you cannot inspect yourself, instead mitigated his risk by choosing not to follow that route, and inspect the book himself. 

[woowoo]

6 minutes ago, Larryw7 said:

Get them reslabbed 

 

Get them reslabbed, cheapskate. Or better yet, crack them out of their tombs and enjoy them.

 Do you have any idea how many Hulk 3's and  that would cost my grand kid would be doing this with Tec 27

Edited August 11, 2018 by woowoo

[thunsicker]

There seem to be two ways of looking at what the purpose of grading a comic is.  People who mainly buy comics think it is to ensure they are getting what they paid for.  People who mainly sell comics think it is to protect the seller.  There is a simple way to tell which is correct.  If the purpose is to protect the seller then slabs should sell at a discount.  If the purpose is to protect the buyer then slabs should sell at a premium.