PGM X-Men #1 0

[The Lions Den]

54 minutes ago, Nrrrrvous said:

I'll pull it out this evening and take a closer look.  See if I can get some pics.  Definitely could be some stain/discoloration from greasy/sweaty fingers. edit - here is a close-up of the scan if that helps

Uh-oh...looks like color touch on the crease and on the corner area...

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Dark Knight said:

Could also be a stain that may have lightened that spot?

Unfortunately, that looks like amateur color touch.

I'm sorry, Nrrrrvous...

Edited August 19, 2018 by The Lions Den

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Nrrrrvous said:

OK, brand new guy question here. Is there a particular number of pages or should I just follow the page numbers/story?  Don't laugh, I just started!

16 pages not including the cover...

[Nrrrrvous]

5 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Good eye. 

Looks like it'd be classified as C-1...  

I'm sorry, Nrrrrvous...

"Uh-oh...looks like color touch on the crease and on the corner area..."

 

What causes you to say this?  I'm not at all being argumentative, just learning.  Is it the different color purple vs the red?  Is it the red going "outside the lines" into the white of Ice?  

[The Lions Den]

22 hours ago, Nrrrrvous said:

"Uh-oh...looks like color touch on the crease and on the corner area..."

 

What causes you to say this?  I'm not at all being argumentative, just learning.  Is it the different color purple vs the red?  Is it the red going "outside the lines" into the white of Ice?  

First, I'm extremely sorry to be the potential bearer of bad news. !!!

To answer your question, not only is the color different, but the fact that it's right on the crease is extremely suspect. And it appears as if they also hit the tiny part of the crease that's above Ice-Man's hand as well. Moreover, the area on the bottom right corner (in the purple) looks like it's been touched up too. 

If you have a good quality magnifying glass, the next step is to look at this area under magnification to confirm or deny the suspicious areas. To my knowledge, no one has been able to successfully reproduce the dot matrix (hundreds of tiny dots used to create the various colors for the cover). If the dot matrix is obscured in or around these areas, it's pretty much a certainty that the book has been color touched. I would also check the inside of the book for any bleed through, although in this case there may not be any. It depends on what was used---for instance, acrylic usually doesn't bleed. 

Whenever I find color touch (or suspected color touch) I always do a thorough check for other areas that may be tampered with as well, and for other types of amateur restoration, such as tear seals, glue on the spine, pieces added, married cover or pages, etc.

I hope I'm wrong...

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by The Lions Den

[Nrrrrvous]

The history of this book - My uncle had a very bad bout of Polio when he was a kid.  One of the effects was that one side of his body didn't develop like the other.  I was told that when he was sick, he turned to reading comic books.  He also lived way back in the mountains which made it very difficult to get comics.  He was only able to get to the store once every few months.  I'm sure, knowing the financial state of my mother's family, he probably couldn't get more than a book or two when he did go.  He would read them multiple times and then toss them in cardboard containers in a covered/semi-enclosed porch.  When I came along in the seventies, I would rifle through the containers on occasion and pull some out to read.  At some point the containers were tossed in the back of a pickup truck that had a camper shell.  A few months ago, someone was going to tow the truck away, he called me and asked if I wanted the books.  I was thinking it was a going to be a container or so but when I got there, it was an entire pickup bed of containers of comics.  I've cataloged about half of them (1200!) and my wife shut me down (we moved into a house that needs a ton of work this summer).  

Long story longer, I know I haven't touched up any of these comics and I'm 99.9999999 percent sure that he never would have even thought about trying to touch up a comic.  They were not really taken care of, the first boards and bags these things have ever seen are the ones I'm putting them in now.  So most of them have various stains, sun spots, fingerprints, unidentified goo...  but I'm nearly certain no one has ever trimmed/touched up one.  

I'm on a bit of a journey to learn what to do with these.  The wife, of course, wants me to just get rid of them.  But I don't know...

 

[The Lions Den]

4 minutes ago, Nrrrrvous said:

The history of this book - My uncle had a very bad bout of Polio when he was a kid.  One of the effects was that one side of his body didn't develop like the other.  I was told that when he was sick, he turned to reading comic books.  He also lived way back in the mountains which made it very difficult to get comics.  He was only able to get to the store once every few months.  I'm sure, knowing the financial state of my mother's family, he probably couldn't get more than a book or two when he did go.  He would read them multiple times and then toss them in cardboard containers in a covered/semi-enclosed porch.  When I came along in the seventies, I would rifle through the containers on occasion and pull some out to read.  At some point the containers were tossed in the back of a pickup truck that had a camper shell.  A few months ago, someone was going to tow the truck away, he called me and asked if I wanted the books.  I was thinking it was a going to be a container or so but when I got there, it was an entire pickup bed of containers of comics.  I've cataloged about half of them (1200!) and my wife shut me down (we moved into a house that needs a ton of work this summer).  

Long story longer, I know I haven't touched up any of these comics and I'm 99.9999999 percent sure that he never would have even thought about trying to touch up a comic.  They were not really taken care of, the first boards and bags these things have ever seen are the ones I'm putting them in now.  So most of them have various stains, sun spots, fingerprints, unidentified goo...  but I'm nearly certain no one has ever trimmed/touched up one.  

I'm on a bit of a journey to learn what to do with these.  The wife, of course, wants me to just get rid of them.  But I don't know...

 

This is an interesting story. I'm very sorry to hear about your uncle, but I'm glad he left a nice collection for you. 

I will say this: Even if this book is color-touched, it's still a very valuable key book. Any collector would be happy to own a nice looking copy like this one. And right now, key comics like this one are selling very well and for unprecedented realizations. Something to think about. 

However it turns out, I wish you the best of luck and I'm pleased to meet you!  

[Dark Knight]

7 hours ago, Nrrrrvous said:

I'll pull it out this evening and take a closer look.  See if I can get some pics.  Definitely could be some stain/discoloration from greasy/sweaty fingers. edit - here is a close-up of the scan if that helps

Also sorry to hear about your uncle..  Its great to hear that he enjoyed reading comics as a way to get his mind off his sickness, looks like he has one heck of a collection.

I really hope that the book wasn't touched up either, but by the looks of the creases at the bottom corner of the book, it may have been. Possible that the store your uncle bought the comics from may have touched up areas where they shows any defects so that they would be able to sell them quicker and easier, or maybe the comic was previously bought by someone else and returned it with the color touch (not sure if returns back then would have been accepted).   

I think the best course of action is to send it to a professional like CCS where they do a screening on books and let you know straight off the bat whether a comic is all original or had been restored/trimmed.

[Dick Pontoon]

I’m not seeing signs of obvious color touch. The color breaking crease still breaks color from where I sit, and registration and magenta/red hues can shift throughout a print run, especially on older books. Here’s a closeup of the corner of my blue-label #1:

[Gnasher]

20 minutes ago, Pontoon said:

I’m not seeing signs of obvious color touch. The color breaking crease still breaks color from where I sit, and registration and magenta/red hues can shift throughout a print run, especially on older books. Here’s a closeup of the corner of my blue-label #1:

I think this, or the greasy thumb the more likely than CT. I'm at a 5.5, but seriously think about getting it graded.

[1Cool]

42 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

I think this, or the greasy thumb the more likely than CT. I'm at a 5.5, but seriously think about getting it graded.

Unless you are unable to come up with the $100 - I'd have already sent this book in for grading.  If it comes back a 6.0 you are looking at a $9,000 book and a 5.0 is a $6,500 book.  What it comes back is a mystery but if you sell it raw for lets say $4,000 you will be leaving a ton of cash on the table.  Express grade it for $100 and even if you hang on to it for awhile (doubt it if your wife finds out how much its worth) you will definetely want to have it graded.

[1Cool]

If you are worried about color touch you can take a picture of the inside cover in that area.  With that much color touch you would see a bunch of bleed thru (color showing up on the inside cover).

[Nrrrrvous]

Just now, 1Cool said:

If you are worried about color touch you can take a picture of the inside cover in that area.  With that much color touch you would see a bunch of bleed thru (color showing up on the inside cover).

I can do that tonight.  I'm also going to pick up a magnifying glass today.  Didn't realize that I didn't own one.  Would like to see what the dots look like.  

[Nrrrrvous]

4 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Unless you are unable to come up with the $100 - I'd have already sent this book in for grading.  If it comes back a 6.0 you are looking at a $9,000 book and a 5.0 is a $6,500 book.  What it comes back is a mystery but if you sell it raw for lets say $4,000 you will be leaving a ton of cash on the table.  Express grade it for $100 and even if you hang on to it for awhile (doubt it if your wife finds out how much its worth) you will definetely want to have it graded.

Well, I was going to get it cleaned and pressed at the same time.  And don't I have to go with the walk-through tier since the book is probably valued over $3000?  Or am I totally mis-reading that?

[1Cool]

14 minutes ago, Nrrrrvous said:

Well, I was going to get it cleaned and pressed at the same time.  And don't I have to go with the walk-through tier since the book is probably valued over $3000?  Or am I totally mis-reading that?

Probably a wise choice since it looks like it can benefit from both. 

Using Express vs Walkthrough is up to you and depends on you risk management.  Personally I would probably go WalkThrough because of the huge difference between $3,000 and $9,000 if it comes back a 6.0 after a clean and press.  But remember GCC typically only cares in terms of how much insurance they have to cover on the book.  The book is worth what - $4,000 raw?  If you are cool with only getting $3,000 if the very rare loss occurs then you may want to consider going with the Express option and saving the $50 - $75 in extra grading charges.  But like I said - I'd go with walk-through since I'd hate for you to get $3,000 on a $8,000 book once its slabbed.

[Nrrrrvous]

1 minute ago, 1Cool said:

Probably a wise choice since it looks like it can benefit from both. 

Using Express vs Walkthrough is up to you and depends on you risk management.  Personally I would probably go WalkThrough because of the huge difference between $3,000 and $9,000 if it comes back a 6.0 after a clean and press.  But remember GCC typically only cares in terms of how much insurance they have to cover on the book.  The book is worth what - $4,000 raw?  If you are cool with only getting $3,000 if the very rare loss occurs then you may want to consider going with the Express option and saving the $50 - $75 in extra grading charges.  But like I said - I'd go with walk-through since I'd hate for you to get $3,000 on a $8,000 book once its slabbed.

That makes a lot of sense!  I think I can afford the 3% investment + Cleaning and Pressing.  I kind of want to get a bit more to the bottom of the color thing before I send it off.  Once it leaves my hands/gets slabbed there's not much more for me to look at.  

 

 

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Nrrrrvous said:

I kind of want to get a bit more to the bottom of the color thing before I send it off.  Once it leaves my hands/gets slabbed there's not much more for me to look at.  

I've got some good news for you---I think I was wrong about the color touch.

I examined a number of other X-Men #1's today (on the Heritage site). I did find out a couple of things of interest:  1) There are a lot of copies that have a color breaking crease running through that spot, so there were some good examples to compare with. 2) I was unable to find a restored copy where the color touch looked exactly like your copy. 3) Looking at your scan again (and the scan from Pontoon, thank you sir) it does appear that the color match on your book is correct, which would be extremely hard for the average person to do. 

So I must say that after examining this new evidence, I no longer think this book has been color-touched. I sincerely apologize for my earlier post...and I hope you do very well with this book!  

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by The Lions Den

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

I've got some good news for you---I think I was wrong about the color touch.

This, but I was waiting for you to say it before opening my big yap.  

 

What's being confused for added coloration is that this book is printed with that magenta color "splashed" in the background, and none too evenly, and then there's usually layering of a plum color over that to give it the characteristic X-Men magenta-purple color. No two are produced exactly alike with respect to the color. This one is more magenta than plum-purple colored, making it look in some areas like that magenta is applied post-production.

I used some imaging tricks to really go over this lower right corner with a fine tooth comb using different gradients of brightness and even negatives and as far as I can tell from this scan, it's clean.

Edited August 20, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Nrrrrvous]

2 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

I've got some good news for you---I think I was wrong about the color touch.

I examined a number of other X-Men #1's today (on the Heritage site). I did find out a couple of things of interest:  1) There are a lot of copies that have a color breaking crease running through that spot, so there were some good examples to compare with. 2) I was unable to find a restored copy where the color touch looked exactly like your copy. 3) Looking at your scan again (and the scan from Pontoon, thank you sir) it does appear that the color match on your book is correct, which would be extremely hard for the average person to do. 

So I must say that after examining this new evidence, I no longer think this book has been color-touched. I sincerely apologize for my earlier post...and I hope you do very well with this book!  

 

Thanks!  No apologies necessary!  I do appreciate you checking out the Heritage site.  I was doing the same thing last night looking at some CGC scans.  Trying to compare mine to theirs.

35 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

 

What's being confused for added coloration is that this book is printed with that magenta color "splashed" in the background, and none too evenly, and then there's usually layering of a plum color over that to give it the characteristic X-Men magenta-purple color. No two are produced exactly alike with respect to the color. This one is more magenta than plum-purple colored, making it look in some areas like that magenta is applied post-production.

I used some imaging tricks to really go over this lower right corner with a fine tooth comb using different gradients of brightness and even negatives and as far as I can tell from this scan, it's clean.

Exactly!  Comparing mine to some others - my magenta is definitely mis-aligned a bit to the left.  That combined with the severe total mis-align of the cover to the cut makes it quite unique.  I'm not sure unique in a good way, but unique none-the-less.  

[James J Johnson]

Just now, Nrrrrvous said:

Thanks!  No apologies necessary!  I do appreciate you checking out the Heritage site.  I was doing the same thing last night looking at some CGC scans.  Trying to compare mine to theirs.

Exactly!  Comparing mine to some others - my magenta is definitely mis-aligned a bit to the left.  That combined with the severe total mis-align of the cover to the cut makes it quite unique.  I'm not sure unique in a good way, but unique none-the-less.  

The magenta often is misaligned. The Heritage permanent archives are an awesome research tool on every level imaginable when it comes to the study of comics. If you make a study of X-Men 1, you'll see many instances of the magenta extending over black artwork outlines in every conceivable angle and forming different shapes. That magenta coloration usually looks like it was "splattered" on the paper during printing.