COMIC ART CON NYC EDITION (PICS) 1 1

[dem1138]

16 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

He claims he facilitated its sale by Brad Savage. My bad, as it was Brad who gave Bechara the and bull story about how it wound up with Brad. 

http://originalcomicartlocator.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-real-story-how-original-art-to-x.html?m=1

One thing I've learned over the years is that there are hundreds of stories in this hobby and for the most part, they're pretty much set in stone for the history books.  The only people who really know are not changing their stories that they put together (some decades) ago.  So we'll just have to go with what we have.

[PhilipB2k17]

9 minutes ago, dem1138 said:

One thing I've learned over the years is that there are hundreds of stories in this hobby and for the most part, they're pretty much set in stone for the history books.  The only people who really know are not changing their stories that they put together (some decades) ago.  So we'll just have to go with what we have.

That's fine. But the description of how Savage came to acquire the X-Men #1 pages is inherently phony. 

1. He just happens to be in someone else's comic shop in the 1980's when these two guys walk in with the complete ASM #1. What a coincidence! If true, my guess is that they were shopping this stuff to all the shops in town, and this owner knew Brad collected art so he called him in to authenticate this stuff. But, let's assume it was just pure coincidence, for the sake of argument.

2. Brad and the shop owner can't come up with enough cash for the ASM #1 pages, so they agree to come back with the right amount a couple days later. These guys show up, claiming they sold the ASM art, but brought X-Men #1 instead! Plus they brought some other choice early ASM pages. I mean, boy these two mystery guys who nobody ever names, or has ever heard of, just happen to have a bunch of complete Marvel grail comic pages. Where or where did they come from?

3. Brad, of course, acts like a complete dummy and pretends that there's nothing the least bit fishy about these two guys. 

My conclusion: The story is complete bunk, and Brad is covering up how he actually got the pages; or its true and its patently obviously they were stolen from Marvel, and these two guys were fencing the loot and Brad played dumb.

I lean to the former.

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[delekkerste]

38 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

That's fine. But the description of how Savage came to acquire the X-Men #1 pages is inherently phony. 

1. He just happens to be in someone else's comic shop in the 1980's when these two guys walk in with the complete ASM #1. What a coincidence! If true, my guess is that they were shopping this stuff to all the shops in town, and this owner knew Brad collected art so he called him in to authenticate this stuff. But, let's assume it was just pure coincidence, for the sake of argument.

2. Brad and the shop owner can't come up with enough cash for the ASM #1 pages, so they agree to come back with the right amount a couple days later. These guys show up, claiming they sold the ASM art, but brought X-Men #1 instead! Plus they brought some other choice early ASM pages. I mean, boy these two mystery guys who nobody ever names, or has ever heard of, just happen to have a bunch of complete Marvel grail comic pages. Where or where did they come from?

3. Brad, of course, acts like a complete dummy and pretends that there's nothing the least bit fishy about these two guys. 

My conclusion: The story is complete bunk, and Brad is covering up how he actually got the pages; or its true and its patently obviously they were stolen from Marvel, and these two guys were fencing the loot and Brad played dumb.

I lean to the former.

 

I don't think the story is phony at all.  It makes perfect sense.  And we know where the art came from.  Two junkies broke into the Marvel warehouse.  They stole some art.  They figured they'd try to sell the art at local comic shops. Brad is either at one at the time when it happens or is called in - doesn't really matter which.  These skeezy junkies know the merch is hot and don't want to take less than full payment on the spot, so Brad doesn't get the ASM #1.  But, he gets the X-Men #1 a few days later.  Of course he knows they're stolen.    

So, it's not the former, it's the latter:  "it's true and it's patently obvious they were stolen from Marvel and these two guys were fencing the loot and Brad played dumb".  I don't think anyone is seriously questioning that this is what happened; it's settled science at this point.  The only question that some keep bringing up, especially in light of the Kirby estate's machinations over the past couple of years, is whether anyone has any legal recourse at this point.  But, otherwise, there is zero question that the art was initially stolen and that some of the great collections and dealer inventories/franchises in the hobby were launched from it.  It just is what it is.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by delekkerste

[dem1138]

32 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

That's fine. But the description of how Savage came to acquire the X-Men #1 pages is inherently phony. 

1. He just happens to be in someone else's comic shop in the 1980's when these two guys walk in with the complete ASM #1. What a coincidence! If true, my guess is that they were shopping this stuff to all the shops in town, and this owner knew Brad collected art so he called him in to authenticate this stuff. But, let's assume it was just pure coincidence, for the sake of argument.

2. Brad and the shop owner can't come up with enough cash for the ASM #1 pages, so they agree to come back with the right amount a couple days later. These guys show up, claiming they sold the ASM art, but brought X-Men #1 instead! Plus they brought some other choice early ASM pages. I mean, boy these two mystery guys who nobody ever names, or has ever heard of, just happen to have a bunch of complete Marvel grail comic pages. Where or where did they come from?

3. Brad, of course, acts like a complete dummy and pretends that there's nothing the least bit fishy about these two guys. 

My conclusion: The story is complete bunk, and Brad is covering up how he actually got the pages; or its true and its patently obviously they were stolen from Marvel, and these two guys were fencing the loot and Brad played dumb.

I lean to the former.

 

I don't know how long you've been collecting or who you've really talked to or if you're just reading the internet, but there's a significant amount of context that you're missing.  I have no inside info on any of this but I can tell you:

1.  The shop was near the storage space so its likely they went there first. 

2.  The area the shop was in was a rough neighborhood.

3.  As the story goes, the people selling it were drug addicts stealing anything they could to feed their habit; which is consistent with the time/location/era.

4.  OA was practically worthless at the time and had zero perceived value so paying anything for this stuff at the time was akin to lighting it on fire in terms of being able to sell it and make a profit.  Whoever bought the stuff back then bought it because they understood what it was immediately and wanted it to keep for a very long time and a lot of the art bought way back when still remains with the same people.

Again, this story could be completely false but its been told so many times that its the only 'truth' that we'll likely ever have.  And Brad told me the same story practically verbatim as well probably 10 years ago.

So in the end, does it really matter what really happened?  I doubt the details on what really happened are much different than the story we actually have.

[delekkerste]

13 hours ago, dem1138 said:

You’re mixing up stories. Bechara was the 2nd owner of that issue after Marvel, not the first. And it took him many years to get it out of the 1st owner. 

Marvel

Junkie thieves

Brad Savage

Bechara + Greg Manning Auctions

Kirk Hammett

Bill Wheatley 

Broken up at auction

[PhilipB2k17]

2 minutes ago, dem1138 said:

I don't know how long you've been collecting or who you've really talked to or if you're just reading the internet, but there's a significant amount of context that you're missing.  I have no inside info on any of this but I can tell you:

1.  The shop was near the storage space so its likely they went there first. 

2.  The area the shop was in was a rough neighborhood.

3.  As the story goes, the people selling it were drug addicts stealing anything they could to feed their habit; which is consistent with the time/location/era.

4.  OA was practically worthless at the time and had zero perceived value so paying anything for this stuff at the time was akin to lighting it on fire in terms of being able to sell it and make a profit.  Whoever bought the stuff back then bought it because they understood what it was immediately and wanted it to keep for a very long time and a lot of the art bought way back when still remains with the same people.

Again, this story could be completely false but its been told so many times that its the only 'truth' that we'll likely ever have.  And Brad told me the same story practically verbatim as well probably 10 years ago.

So in the end, does it really matter what really happened?  I doubt the details on what really happened are much different than the story we actually have.

This happened in the 80’s. Even then, OA from ASM #1 & X-Men #1 was valuable. And the people selling it knew it was worth something. 

And, (assuming the story is true) obviously Brad knew the guys selling it didn’t legally own it. Instead of alerting the police, or Marvel, he bought the stuff. 

Also, the story isn’t true of it happened in the 80’s, because Marvel gave back Kirby & Ditko pages in the 70’s, and that stuff shouldn’t have been in the warehouse to begin with  

 

[artdealer]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

This happened in the 80’s. Even then, OA from ASM #1 & X-Men #1 was valuable. And the people selling it knew it was worth something. 

And, (assuming the story is true) obviously Brad knew the guys selling it didn’t legally own it. Instead of alerting the police, or Marvel, he bought the stuff. 

Also, the story isn’t true of it happened in the 80’s, because Marvel gave back Kirby & Ditko pages in the 70’s, and that stuff shouldn’t have been in the warehouse to begin with  

 

Marvel began to return the older art they had in the early 1980s, not the 70s.

Get your story straight.

MI

[PhilipB2k17]

9 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I don't think the story is phony at all.  It makes perfect sense.  And we know where the art came from.  Two junkies broke into the Marvel warehouse.  They stole some art.  They figured they'd try to sell the art at local comic shops. Brad is either at one at the time when it happens or is called in - doesn't really matter which.  These skeezy junkies know the merch is hot and don't want to take less than full payment on the spot, so Brad doesn't get the ASM #1.  But, he gets the X-Men #1 a few days later.  Of course he knows they're stolen.    

So, it's not the former, it's the latter:  "it's true and it's patently obvious they were stolen from Marvel and these two guys were fencing the loot and Brad played dumb".  I don't think anyone is seriously questioning that this is what happened; it's settled science at this point.  The only question that some keep bringing up, especially in light of the Kirby estate's machinations over the past couple of years, is whether anyone has any legal recourse at this point.  But, otherwise, there is zero question that the art was initially stolen and that some of the great collections and dealer inventories/franchises in the hobby were launched from it.  It just is what it is.  

I question the “Junkes broke in and stole it,” part. I think someone stole it, but it wasn’t junkies. 

[PhilipB2k17]

Just now, artdealer said:

Marvel began to return the older art they had in the early 1980s, not the 70s.

Get your story straight.

MI

Whatever. It’s still questionable. 

[artdealer]

Just now, PhilipB2k17 said:

Whatever. It’s still questionable. 

Nope, not questionable. It's a fact.

As far as art being stolen, yes. But no one did anything at the time, and much was sold at a con in NYC shortly after art was stolen.

Nothing can, or will be done now 35 years after the fact. No artist filed a police report listing the individual pages they thought were stolen. At this point in time, the fact of whether or not they were stolen is almost a moot point.

MI

[PhilipB2k17]

Look. Junkies are going to sell the stuff they just stole from Marvel for whatever reasonable cash they can get. They need cash RIGHT NOW to feed their habit. They aren’t haggling. Thieves who know what this stuff is, or who are middle men for the actual thieves (Marvel warehouse employees? security guards? The mob?) etc. are going to haggle. 

And they are not just walking into a comic shop cold.  They are shopping it ahead of time (making calls, etc.) to make sure they get willing buyers and not someone who will call the cops. Which is why Brad was there when they walked in. It wasn’t a coincidence.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[artdealer]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Look. Junkies are going to sell the stuff they just stole from Marvel for whatever reasonable cash they can get. They need cash RIGHT NOW to feed their habit. They aren’t haggling. Thieves who know what this stuff is, or who are middle men for the actual thieves (Marvel warehouse employees? security guards? The mob?) etc. are going to haggle. 

Abd they are not just walking into a comic shop cold  they are shopping it ahead of time to make sure they get willing buyers and not someone who will call the cops  

 

 

You were there? You know the facts?

[PhilipB2k17]

3 minutes ago, artdealer said:

Nope, not questionable. It's a fact.

As far as art being stolen, yes. But no one did anything at the time, and much was sold at a con in NYC shortly after art was stolen.

Nothing can, or will be done now 35 years after the fact. No artist filed a police report listing the individual pages they thought were stolen. At this point in time, the fact of whether or not they were stolen is almost a moot point.

MI

Marvel would have done it. And maybe Marvel was lying to the artists about what they still had, so filing a police report created more legal problems than it’s worth. 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 minute ago, artdealer said:

You were there? You know the facts?

Jesus Christ. I can use logic. 

[dem1138]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Look. Junkies are going to sell the stuff they just stole from Marvel for whatever reasonable cash they can get. They need cash RIGHT NOW to feed their habit. They aren’t haggling. Thieves who know what this stuff is, or who are middle men for the actual thieves (Marvel warehouse employees? security guards? The mob?) etc. are going to haggle. 

Abd they are not just walking into a comic shop cold  they are shopping it ahead of time to make sure they get willing buyers and not someone who will call the cops  

 

 

That's an interesting perspective.  But if there was an initial prearranged theft, there's simply no way Brad winds up with anything.  Having met and spoken with him, I believe the comic shop right place/right time story.  And it was offered to the comic shop owners first and they didn't want it.  Did they not want it because they knew they were local junkies looking to fence stolen property?  That's a reasonable assumption.  But was anyone calling the police in the early 80s in downtown NYC for stolen comic art?  Uh, I don't think so.  I'd imagine the shop owner was just happy not to get robbed that day.

[artdealer]

2 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Jesus Christ. I can use logic. 

But it's illogical.

Junkies walk into the comic book store as they know its there if they are local. 

Comic shop owners afraid to buy something they know nothing about. Plus junkies.

[PhilipB2k17]

1 minute ago, dem1138 said:

That's an interesting perspective.  But if there was an initial prearranged theft, there's simply no way Brad winds up with anything.  Having met and spoken with him, I believe the comic shop right place/right time story.  And it was offered to the comic shop owners first and they didn't want it.  Did they not want it because they knew they were local junkies looking to fence stolen property?  That's a reasonable assumption.  But was anyone calling the police in the early 80s in downtown NYC for stolen comic art?  Uh, I don't think so.  I'd imagine the shop owner was just happy not to get robbed that day.

The story Bechara tells is that both the shop and Brad tried putting enough cash together on the spot to buy the art. And why in the world wouldn't a comic owner want the art? Only two reasons: 1) It was more than they were willing to pay (which seems unlikely if it's two junkies fencing stole goods); or they knew it was stolen and did not want to receive stolen goods. 

If a Junkie mugs someone and takes their purse or wallet, they are immediately going to a fence (or an unsavory pawn shop) to sell the stuff for whatever they can get. They are not haggling with them. 

[PhilipB2k17]

Just now, artdealer said:

But it's illogical.

Junkies walk into the comic book store as they know its there if they are local. 

Comic shop owners afraid to buy something they know nothing about. Plus junkies.

Junkies do not HAGGLE! Junkies take whatever cash they can get for this stuff. I mean, give me a fricking break.

[artdealer]

1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The story Bechara tells is that both the shop and Brad tried putting enough cash together on the spot to buy the art. And why in the world wouldn't a comic owner want the art? Only two reasons: 1) It was more than they were willing to pay (which seems unlikely if it's two junkies fencing stole goods); or they knew it was stolen and did not want to receive stolen goods. 

If a Junkie mugs someone and takes their purse or wallet, they are immediately going to a fence (or an unsavory pawn shop) to sell the stuff for whatever they can get. They are not haggling with them. 

And when it comes to the end of the day, what difference does it make.

The art was stolen. It was sold, and resold, and resold........

The story told by Brad is the story I heard decades ago, and believe it to be the truth.

35 years later, what purpose does it serve to bring this up again?

[PhilipB2k17]

5 minutes ago, dem1138 said:

That's an interesting perspective.  But if there was an initial prearranged theft, there's simply no way Brad winds up with anything.  Having met and spoken with him, I believe the comic shop right place/right time story.  And it was offered to the comic shop owners first and they didn't want it.  Did they not want it because they knew they were local junkies looking to fence stolen property?  That's a reasonable assumption.  But was anyone calling the police in the early 80s in downtown NYC for stolen comic art?  Uh, I don't think so.  I'd imagine the shop owner was just happy not to get robbed that day.

Look. Maybe Warehouse employees figured out what was in the warehouse and decided to rip it off? So, they first figured out where they could sell it. Logically, a comic shop would be the first place such a thief would call up or check out. The two guys could be middle men for the actual thieves, or they could be the thieves themselves.