2000 CE: When pressing was restoration... 1 1

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, 787Sweet said:

He didn't show up announcing his books were pressed, he had to be guilted and shamed into admitting it. He turned his nose up at disclosure because it was a PITA for him, and he resented being asked. To show his disdain for the people who wanted disclosure he wrote a flippant disclaimer that said (paraphrase) "Like every smart dealer, any of my books could be pressed yadda yadda yadda". He was defensive and arrogant about the whole situation.

I am a fan of Steve Borock. My previous statements about him making pressing 'legitimate' was just meant to be a statement of fact, not a reflection on him personally. However, I must admit, now that you mention it, from my recollection also, that your statements are correct. When he started selling on the Boards, he was asked if his books were pressed. He was defensive and evasive about it, finally stating to assume all his books were pressed. 

[Bomber-Bob]

3 hours ago, namisgr said:

If you're a collector of high grade Silver Age and/or key Bronze Age comics, it's almost impossible to amass an unpressed collection in today's hobby.

As for the notion mentioned earlier that pressing is virtually impossible to detect, that's just not the case with early Silver Age Marvels.

Finally, one of the consequences of rampant pressing and an in-house pressing service that has emerged as new to the hobby since the advent of CGC is the adjusting of the grading scale to favor books with natural features pressed out and to ignore unnatural features that pressing introduces.  A slight bend in the top overhang or right edge overhang of the cover or a tiny surface impression only visible at a sharp angle are usually enough to keep an early SA Marvel out of the ultra high grades.  When they get removed by pressing the grade often goes up accordingly, but the comic often suffers from some combination of the stigmata of pressing: a flattened spine, fuzzy staple holes from slight movement of the cover during the process, a 'starched collar' look to the overhang, interior pages that protrude out of the cover especially along the top half of the right edge, horizontal stress lines where the ex-overhang meets the interior pages, and more.  If you're like me and don't care as much for comics that look that way, then as a hobbyist your recourse is to either suck it up and accept slews of pressed books into your SA collection, or sell your SA collection and move on.

 

Your statements are truly spot on but we both know the Boards will never acknowledge. The grading game is all about the pressed book.  Personally, as a collector, I'm okay with accepting some pressed books into my collection. Maybe, as Casey (Logan) stated, I have more than I realize. However, for the most part, I still seek to acquire unpressed books. I'll accept that slight bend or surface impression instead of staple tears and protruding interior pages. How is it that collectors on the Boards always seek perfectly aligned spines but ignore the right edge fanning ? How are collectors okay with paying full value for a 9.4 book that was pressed from an 8.5 ?  Why do collectors obsess about how to store their books properly but don't hesitate to use an iron on them ? 

[Bomber-Bob]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There is no doubt that there are a lot of people who don't know what they're doing, doing work to books that make them end up like this, and there are a lot of books that end up looking like that.

However, that's not true of everyone.

It's the same caveat: bad pressing is easy to detect. Sloppy pressing is easy to detect. Proper pressing is not.

RMA, I may be wrong, but I think you are pressing to truly improve the comic and many/most stay in your collection. ? You care and I'm sure it shows in your pressing. As a side comment, proper pressing should not only be about how the book looks but if it lasts .I've had some bad experiences with a pressed book that looked good, only to morph back into it's original state inside the slab. It hurts to spend a lot of money on a 8.0 key to visit it later and see a 7.0 key.  

[Logan510]

Pressing out of the goodness of your heart, Interesting.

[bronze johnny]

15 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Your statements are truly spot on but we both know the Boards will never acknowledge. The grading game is all about the pressed book.  Personally, as a collector, I'm okay with accepting some pressed books into my collection. Maybe, as Casey (Logan) stated, I have more than I realize. However, for the most part, I still seek to acquire unpressed books. I'll accept that slight bend or surface impression instead of staple tears and protruding interior pages. How is it that collectors on the Boards always seek perfectly aligned spines but ignore the right edge fanning ? How are collectors okay with paying full value for a 9.4 book that was pressed from an 8.5 ?  Why do collectors obsess about how to store their books properly but don't hesitate to use an iron on them ? 

Comes back to a point I made in another thread  about my preference for a plumpy 9.0-9.2 over a pancake 9.8. Keep in mind that the decision that pressing was not restoration after it was as documented evidence from the year 2000 demonstrates- was a business decision.

Edited September 23, 2018 by bronze johnny

[joeypost]

15 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Comes back to a point I made in another thread  about my preference for a plumpy 9.0-9.2 over a pancake 9.8. Keep in mind that the decision to decide that pressing was not restoration after it was as documented evidence from the year 2000 demonstrates- was a business decision.

What if it was a pressed plump 9.8? Not everyone crushes spines. 

[bronze johnny]

13 minutes ago, joeypost said:

What if it was a pressed plump 9.8? Not everyone crushes spines. 

True, why wouldn't anyone want a hybrid book? Let me add that I'd still prefer a non-hybrid copy that's plumpy.

Edited September 23, 2018 by bronze johnny

[namisgr]

1 hour ago, joeypost said:

What if it was a pressed plump 9.8? Not everyone crushes spines. 

How do you get rid of non-color breaking spine stress lines, then?  From the inside?

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by namisgr

[joeypost]

5 hours ago, namisgr said:

How do you get rid of non-color breaking spine stress lines, then?  From the inside?

 

There are ways to  get imperfections out of books without clamping the life out of them. 

[pickycollector]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:26 PM, namisgr said:

Sometimes, Most of the time, you can tell when a book's been 'properly pressed'.  

Fixed that for you

[pickycollector]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:44 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Pressing is not detectable, 99% of the time.

Really. 

The other 1%, it's either because the book was very worn and is now unnaturally flat (emphasis on UNNATURALLY), or the book has been obviously smooshed, or the book has waviness/ripples (the bane of my existence, admittedly.)

But 99% of the time, the books that come out of my press...you cannot tell. No one can. And it's not because I'm a pressing savant. I'm not. I have some books out there that are cringe-worthy...and so does everyone else, from the worst to the best. But 99% of the time, you cannot tell.

And I've pressed maybe 6,000-8,000 books since 2010...? And that's true of everybody who is at least a passable presser.

That is so untrue. Pressing is detectable on a raw book, 95% of the time. You know it and I know it. I can easily detect if a book was pressed and I know other people who can do it as well. True, it is harder when the book is in a CGC holder, but once cracked, you can easily tell. Well, even when in a slab, sometimes, you can tell. And I do not press books nor did I seen thousands of pressed books either. Several years ago, I sent a few books to be pressed just to see the result and almost entered into the game but decided after a few "submissions" that I will not continue to do it because I did not like the practice nor do I like books that are so thin that I could use them as dental floss.

Many people here wants us to believe that pressing is undetectable. Bull-s**t. They all want us to believe that and why? Because it is good for money. Period. Most people now do press or have their books pressed because otherwise "they would leave money on the table" as they say. I think it is a shame on this hobby. CGC says that they cannot detect pressing but I do not believe them. Press and submit or crack-press-resub are now the rules of the game. They probably would not be if CGC was able to recognize pressing and label a book as "pressed". Would such a book labeled as "pressed" sell as well as a non-pressed book? I doubt it. But now unfortunately it is embedded in the market and the practice is now generalized because most people wants to make as much money as possible. It is human nature.

As a matter of fact, I consider micro-trimming even more difficult to detect than pressing. I will even say that if micro-trimming has been accepted by the industry a few years ago, many people today would micro-trim their books because "they would not want to leave money on the table". It has almost been the case until the Ewert scandal exploded in the market and did show the practice.

I know that my post will probably have a lot of reaction but it will be a waste of time for me to debate any further into the subject. I tried in the past and it did not change anything. Pressing is now embedded in the industry and is now the normal rather than the exception. Unfortunate but true. Comics are now a commodity. Period.

Edited September 24, 2018 by pickycollector

[pickycollector]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:28 PM, Bomber-Bob said:

Your statements are truly spot on but we both know the Boards will never acknowledge. The grading game is all about the pressed book.  Personally, as a collector, I'm okay with accepting some pressed books into my collection. Maybe, as Casey (Logan) stated, I have more than I realize. However, for the most part, I still seek to acquire unpressed books. I'll accept that slight bend or surface impression instead of staple tears and protruding interior pages. How is it that collectors on the Boards always seek perfectly aligned spines but ignore the right edge fanning ? How are collectors okay with paying full value for a 9.4 book that was pressed from an 8.5 ?  Why do collectors obsess about how to store their books properly but don't hesitate to use an iron on them ? 

I totally agree with you and still try to own unpressed books but it is getting hard today. Chasing CGC books that have been graded before 2006 in order to have a lower probability of pressing reduces greatly the number of books available for me. Sometimes, I have no other choice than to buy a book graded recently because otherwise I would never be able to fill a hole in my collection (not too many left, fortunately). However, then I do not dare cracking the case as I fear I may discover that the book has been pressed inside so that is why I would try at the very least not to acquire books that are too obviously pressed i.e. avoiding those with extreme right-edge poke-through or avoid buying books from people whom are rampant pressers, etc. but auctions make it even more difficult today to know where the books are coming from and auctions have became ones of the best ways to get high grade books today.

Edited September 24, 2018 by pickycollector

[bronze johnny]

4 hours ago, pickycollector said:

I totally agree with you and still try to own unpressed books but it is getting hard today. Chasing CGC books that have been graded before 2006 in order to have a lower probability of pressing reduces greatly the number of books available for me. Sometimes, I have no other choice than to buy a book graded recently because otherwise I would never be able to fill a hole in my collection (not too many left, fortunately). However, then I do not dare cracking the case as I fear I may discover that the book has been pressed inside so that is why I would try at the very least not to acquire books that are too obviously pressed i.e. avoiding those with extreme right-edge poke-through or avoid buying books from people whom are rampant pressers, etc. but auctions make it even more difficult today to know where the books are coming from and auctions have became ones of the best ways to get high grade books today.

Finding unpressed books is the real collecting challenge for me. It's also a greater sense of accomplishment when I do find unpressed books- and I've seen enough books in my 40 years of collecting to identify pressed books. Pressing is here to stay because of the $$$ and perhaps Borock should also be commended for seeing that this hobby would transcend into an unregulated commodities market?

[Bomber-Bob]

6 hours ago, pickycollector said:

That is so untrue. Pressing is detectable on a raw book, 95% of the time. You know it and I know it. I can easily detect if a book was pressed and I know other people who can do it as well. True, it is harder when the book is in a CGC holder, but once cracked, you can easily tell. Well, even when in a slab, sometimes, you can tell. And I do not press books nor did I seen thousands of pressed books either. Several years ago, I sent a few books to be pressed just to see the result and almost entered into the game but decided after a few "submissions" that I will not continue to do it because I did not like the practice nor do I like books that are so thin that I could use them as dental floss.

Many people here wants us to believe that pressing is undetectable. Bull-s**t. They all want us to believe that and why? Because it is good for money. Period. Most people now do press or have their books pressed because otherwise "they would leave money on the table" as they say. I think it is a shame on this hobby. CGC says that they cannot detect pressing but I do not believe them. Press and submit or crack-press-resub are now the rules of the game. They probably would not be if CGC was able to recognize pressing and label a book as "pressed". Would such a book labeled as "pressed" sell as well as a non-pressed book? I doubt it. But now unfortunately it is embedded in the market and the practice is now generalized because most people wants to make as much money as possible. It is human nature.

As a matter of fact, I consider micro-trimming even more difficult to detect than pressing. I will even say that if micro-trimming has been accepted by the industry a few years ago, many people today would micro-trim their books because "they would not want to leave money on the table". It has almost been the case until the Ewert scandal exploded in the market and did show the practice.

I know that my post will probably have a lot of reaction but it will be a waste of time for me to debate any further into the subject. I tried in the past and it did not change anything. Pressing is now embedded in the industry and is now the normal rather than the exception. Unfortunate but true. Comics are now a commodity. Period.

Picky, I totally concur except for one point. I don't think your post will have a reaction at all. The collectors that like unpressed books are in such a minority that we don't even merit a debate anymore. 

[joeypost]

11 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Picky, I totally concur except for one point. I don't think your post will have a reaction at all. The collectors that like unpressed books are in such a minority that we don't even merit a debate anymore. 

Agreed. It’s like tossing pebbles at an approaching train. 

[pickycollector]

8 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Picky, I totally concur except for one point. I don't think your post will have a reaction at all. The collectors that like unpressed books are in such a minority that we don't even merit a debate anymore. 

Yeah, you may be right. The last time I did post about pressing was a long time ago, when pressing threads were flaming debates in the CGC Forum.

[RockMyAmadeus]

8 hours ago, pickycollector said:

That is so untrue. Pressing is detectable on a raw book, 95% of the time. You know it and I know it. I can easily detect if a book was pressed and I know other people who can do it as well. True, it is harder when the book is in a CGC holder, but once cracked, you can easily tell.

You must only have experience with poor to mediocre pressing, on low to mid-grade books.

I suspect that those who think that "pressing is detectable 95% of the time" are people who only have such experience, and have never actually done the process for themselves.

When done properly, on an upper mid-grade or better book, it is not detectable. The higher the grade, the "less" possible it is to detect. You have a few NCB spine stress marks and maybe a 1" NCB bend with some thumb dents? A typical 9.0? Those can come out, and you might get a 9.4-9.6...sometimes even a 9.8....and you would never know the book was pressed.

Quote

Several years ago, I sent a few books to be pressed just to see the result ...nor do I like books that are so thin that I could use them as dental floss.

Then you went to someone who is a mediocre to poor presser.

Edited September 24, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Picky, I totally concur except for one point. I don't think your post will have a reaction at all. The collectors that like unpressed books are in such a minority that we don't even merit a debate anymore. 

I am completely with you, Bob, that books that have new problems introduced by improper pressing should be downgraded, and not "glossed over"...and I agree that that is happening. 

[pickycollector]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You must only have experience with poor to mediocre pressing, on low to mid-grade books.

I suspect that those who think that "pressing is detectable 95% of the time" are people who only have such experience, and have never actually done the process for themselves.

When done properly, on a upper mid-grade or better book, it is not detectable. The higher the grade, the "less" possible it is to detect. You have a few NCB spine stress marks and maybe a 1" NCB bend with some thumb dents? A typical 9.0? Those can come out, and you might get a 9.4-9.6...sometimes even a 9.8....and you would never know the book was pressed.

Then you went to someone who is a mediocre to poor presser.

I had experience and seen books from some that are considered the best in the pressing industry, and most with high grade books...

We can argue and counter-argue and counter-counter argue for several posts and at the end of the day, we will waste each other time and will not change each other mind. Moreover, I have a life outside this forum and do not want to spend time or energy in an endless debate.

However, I would propose you this: challenge me in a pressing detection contest!

Meet me or have somebody meet me with about 100 raw books (more if you want) that are equally distributed by period, i.e. something like 25 GA books, 25 SA books, 24 BA books and 25 CA/MA books. Among them, you will select books that you know that have been pressed (by you or anyone else) and other books that you know that have NOT been pressed. I tell you that I will be able to detect the pressed books with a score of at least 95%. If not, I will eat my words and publicly apologize. If yes, you will.

The only books that I probably will not meet a score of 95% are square-bounds, giant-size issues (like GS X-Men 1 or Silver Surfer #1-7) because those that I have seen, I could not tell for sure if they were pressed or not. I still have one raw GS Thor #1 pressed by somebody considered as one of the best pressers here that I still cannot see the difference. Square-bounds however represent probably less that 1% of the number of comic books, so there should be no more than that in the sample. But anything else with staples on spine, I can detect pressing easily.

We can have a third party selecting the books if you prefer. We can record the event, have witnesses, etc. Distance can be a problem, of course, but there are comic cons with CGC booths every year in my town or nearer towns so it is feasible.

That challenge applies to any presser here whom would be willing to take such a challenge with me.

Even better, let's have a team of the five best pressers vs a team of five anti-pressers whom consider themselves excellent at detecting pressing and let's clear that question once for all !! Then we can disclose the results in the CGC Forum and the question will be finally solved, with statistics and scores displayed (Is SA more detectable than CA/MA?, which presser got the best result? etc.)

You know what? I doubt any presser will take the challenge. They would lose. And more than just a bet...

Even worst. And it is sad. Even if one takes the challenge and lose, and the result is displayed, I doubt it will change anything with the pressing industry. But at least, people will stop falsely saying that pressing is 99% undetectable...

I challenge thee !!

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here, again, is my take:

1. Pressing is an art, even more than a science. Those who have the ability to do it properly, introducing little, if any, "pressing defects" to a book, are very rare, because it takes time, patience, and a gentleness that most people don't possess. It is not easy to properly press a book. We're talking about paper that is decades old, that can behave in unexpected ways, and was never meant to be preserved.

2. Pressing is a high wire act. Too much moisture, and things start to warp and ripple. Not enough moisture, and your defects either don't come out at all, or (more commonly), your defects come back if you just squash the book into submission. You cannot squash books into submission. You must, must, MUST balance your moisture, pressure, and heat, constantly, and what's more, you must change your methods depending on what you're working with. A 1948 Avon requires a completely different approach than a 2013 Marvel, and they all have their own unique challenges. 2013 Marvels, for example, were printed on tissue paper, with giant staples. Does your presser know this? Does he/she know what it takes to not impress the covers with your staple tines? It's not easy, nor is it quick.

3. The customers for pressing neither know, nor care, that proper pressing takes time. Ok, yes, if it's a 1991 book with a single 1/4" NCB spine tic that keeps it out of 9.8, no, that's not difficult. But if it's a 1963 Marvel key, then you're working with 55 year old paper, and you have to be gentle. But...with the prevalence of "low cost" (you get what you pay for) and "quick pressing" (a contradiction in terms), then yes, the market has come to expect that, and here's the kicker: they have no way of knowing if someone else could have done it better. You improve an 8.5 to a 9.4? Great! Wow! But there's no way to know if someone else, doing it better, could have gotten a 9.6. And even if you were to send it to someone else, because of the vagaries of grading, it's still not really proof.

4. "Good enough" is what rules in the market. That's why I don't press for others anymore, outside of a handful here and there. It's not even remotely worth it. 

I enjoy pressing. It is absolutely restoration. It's proper restoration. I am thoroughly amazed at what is possible, and how books can be "saved" from the ravages of whatever they have gone through. It's a joy to turn a mangled, water damaged mess into something presentable. But it is not easy, it is not cheap, and it is not something that can be done by anyone with a press. And until and unless the market, from front to back, recognizes that, then there's nothing really anyone can do.