2000 CE: When pressing was restoration... 1 1

[joeypost]

Just now, Logan510 said:

You know who it is, it's the same guy who said he didn't used humidity because "water is the enemy of paper", though he's since changed his tune on that.

I thought fire was the enemy of paper. And water is the enemy of fire, since water is the enemy of the enemy of paper, it must be its friend. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/15/2018 at 2:37 PM, bronze johnny said:

On 9/15/2018 at 2:23 PM, Bomber-Bob said:

Yes, all the services listed are now deemed restoration except for pressing. Per Borock, since they could not accurately detect pressing, they had to give it a pass. However, this fact was generally kept a 'secret' that only the insiders knew about After Borock left CGC, he became a dealer, and bought/sold many books on the Boards. He stated he would have his books pressed. Note: He did not press himself. A man has to know his limitations ! This seemed to spread the word about pressing and made it legitimate to most collectors. The slab game has always been about getting the funny stuff past CGC. This is simply a case where they couldn't detect it. Who knows how pressing would have been viewed if they were able to detect it. The fact that pressing is now a big part of their business model and the foundation for the CPR game does imply it was in the plan all along. 

Thanks for the insight Bob. Just identify the "pancake" books - they're easy to identify- and you can note "probably pressed" on the label. Nevertheless, I think it's important for us to document what comic book collecting was like before the CPR game. Be great to put documents like the one above in a place accessible to everyone so that they can see where things were. History is cyclical after all. 

If it can't be identified with reasonable assurance CGC can't guess it. They're in the business of identifying with assurance.

And as far as pressing being detectable, it's a debate that has been had countless times over.

It's almost pointless to try to detect it. Under many circumstances it can happen along the life of a book even in the wild and that is besides that, the fact all comics are heated and pressed during the production process when new.

It's just one of those things in nature where unfortunately if you don't like pressed books you have little recourse to prevent it.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

It hasn't? Then why do we see books that are original owner and unpressed go for such a premium? Not everyone buying books is looking to upgrade them.

Also, I would be willing to bet that some of the people who are very against pressed books probably have some unknowingly in their collection. There are a lot of "experts" on these boards who don't know what they're talking about half the time 

Collectors seeking to purchase for their collection have to compete against the opportunity to press bidders. If you are referring to me as a someone in the 'not knowing what they are talking about' crowd, that may be true. I never claim to be an expert, just offer my opinions. 

[VintageComics]

2 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Perhaps the marketplace will someday recognize originality with a collector valuation bump

It already does.

As I said 10 years ago, if someone wants an unpressed book you just need to be able to pay the unpressed price...much like other factors draw a premium price (Pedigree, outstanding appeal, etc) unpressed books also do.

Personally, I don't need to own an Edgar Church book but if I did, I'd need to pay multiples of FMV to own one. It's not any different with books of other significant qualities that people look for.

[Logan510]

25 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Collectors seeking to purchase for their collection have to compete against the opportunity to press bidders. If you are referring to me as a someone in the 'not knowing what they are talking about' crowd, that may be true. I never claim to be an expert, just offer my opinions. 

Why would you assume I’m talking about you?

I wasn’t by the way.

[bronze johnny]

22 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

If it can't be identified with reasonable assurance CGC can't guess it. They're in the business of identifying with assurance.

And as far as pressing being detectable, it's a debate that has been had countless times over.

It's almost pointless to try to detect it. Under many circumstances it can happen along the life of a book even in the wild and that is besides that, the fact all comics are heated and pressed during the production process when new.

It's just one of those things in nature where unfortunately if you don't like pressed books you have little recourse to prevent it.

 

In certain circumstances, CGC can estimate in all probability that a book has been pressed- especially when it's submitted from known professional pressers on behalf of owners. And this is true especially where the same book is resubbed and is as flat as a pancake. We aren't discussing the methodology applied to the physical sciences. Grading is an imperfect process that incorporates a great deal of subjectivity- no reason why pressing should be exempt from the grading equation. Besides, there are dealers out there who disclose pressed books. 

Yes, not every book can be identified as an "apparent pressed book" but we should strive to identify those that can be. This is isn't about whether someone likes or dislikes pressed books- it concerns how we define a book's condition and pressing, when possible, should be noted. 

Pressing can't be prevented but it can be identified and should be noted- on either a blue or purple label. 

[VintageComics]

6 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

In certain circumstances, CGC can estimate in all probability that a book has been pressed- especially when it's submitted from known professional pressers on behalf of owners. And this is true especially where the same book is resubbed and is as flat as a pancake. We aren't discussing the methodology applied to the physical sciences. Grading is an imperfect process that incorporates a great deal of subjectivity- no reason why pressing should be exempt from the grading equation. Besides, there are dealers out there who disclose pressed books. 

Even if someone disclosed a book as pressed and CGC had the option to notate it on the label, how would the industry react to that?

You'd then have (for example) two otherwise equal CGC 9.6 books differentiate with either a disclosure (or an educated guess) that the book was pressed with the other missing the notationt. So the two 9.6's would no longer be equal.

I don't see the majority submitters (dealers of course, who each submit 100's, 1000's and 10,000's of books a year) not wanting to deal with yet another complication for selling a book.

And that also leaves the book without a pressing notation ambiguous. The market ultimately wants certainty not guesses.

It would seem pointless to attempt to identify just a small portion of the pressed books to satisfy a group of people who don't like pressing when the market has already accepted it as a majority.

I don't see it happening.

Again, it's been discussed in detail so this is just a rehash of points I'm bringing back up.

[RockMyAmadeus]

21 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

In certain circumstances, CGC can estimate in all probability that a book has been pressed- especially when it's submitted from known professional pressers on behalf of owners. And this is true especially where the same book is resubbed and is as flat as a pancake. We aren't discussing the methodology applied to the physical sciences. Grading is an imperfect process that incorporates a great deal of subjectivity- no reason why pressing should be exempt from the grading equation. Besides, there are dealers out there who disclose pressed books. 

Yes, not every book can be identified as an "apparent pressed book" but we should strive to identify those that can be. This is isn't about whether someone likes or dislikes pressed books- it concerns how we define a book's condition and pressing, when possible, should be noted. 

Pressing can't be prevented but it can be identified and should be noted- on either a blue or purple label. 

Pressing is not detectable, 99% of the time.

Really. 

The other 1%, it's either because the book was very worn and is now unnaturally flat (emphasis on UNNATURALLY), or the book has been obviously smooshed, or the book has waviness/ripples (the bane of my existence, admittedly.)

But 99% of the time, the books that come out of my press...you cannot tell. No one can. And it's not because I'm a pressing savant. I'm not. I have some books out there that are cringe-worthy...and so does everyone else, from the worst to the best. But 99% of the time, you cannot tell.

And I've pressed maybe 6,000-8,000 books since 2010...? And that's true of everybody who is at least a passable presser.

Edited September 22, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[bronze johnny]

 

 

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Pressing is not detectable, 99% of the time.

Really. 

The other 1%, it's either because the book was very worn and is now unnaturally flat (emphasis on UNNATURALLY), or the book has been obviously smooshed, or the book has waviness/ripples (the bane of my existence, admittedly.)

But 99% of the time, the books that come out of my press...you cannot tell. No one can. And it's not because I'm a pressing savant. I'm not. I have some books out there that are cringe-worthy...and so does everyone else, from the worst to the best. But 99% of the time, you cannot tell.

And I've pressed maybe 6,000-8,000 books since 2010...?

That's good.

Edited September 22, 2018 by bronze johnny

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, bronze johnny said:

 

 

That's good.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, joeypost said:

100 books, really? That’s an average Wednesday for me. 

 

[bronze johnny]

11 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Even if someone disclosed a book as pressed and CGC had the option to notate it on the label, how would the industry react to that?

You'd then have (for example) two otherwise equal CGC 9.6 books differentiate with either a disclosure (or an educated guess) that the book was pressed with the other missing the notationt. So the two 9.6's would no longer be equal.

I don't see the majority submitters (dealers of course, who each submit 100's, 1000's and 10,000's of books a year) not wanting to deal with yet another complication for selling a book.

And that also leaves the book without a pressing notation ambiguous. The market ultimately wants certainty not guesses.

It would seem pointless to attempt to identify just a small portion of the pressed books to satisfy a group of people who don't like pressing when the market has already accepted it as a majority.

I don't see it happening.

Again, it's been discussed in detail so this is just a rehash of points I'm bringing back up.

Nothing wrong with testing it on the label. As for identifying pressing- see enough books and you can tell. May not always get it right, but you'll know it when you see it. Where you can't - nothing wrong with "pressed- inconclusive (on either a blue or purple label)."

Edited September 22, 2018 by bronze johnny

[James J Johnson]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Pressing is not detectable, 99% of the time.

Really. 

The other 1%, it's either because the book was very worn and is now unnaturally flat (emphasis on UNNATURALLY), or the book has been obviously smooshed, or the book has waviness/ripples (the bane of my existence, admittedly.)

But 99% of the time, the books that come out of my press...you cannot tell. No one can. And it's not because I'm a pressing savant. I'm not. I have some books out there that are cringe-worthy...and so does everyone else, from the worst to the best. But 99% of the time, you cannot tell.

And I've pressed maybe 6,000-8,000 books since 2010...?

Wasn't pressing considered restoration at that time because it was typically done in conjunction with cleaning? And that cleaning and pressing was performed after disassembling the book, for either one process, the other, or both?

My understanding is that disassembly pressing is considered resto and non-disassembly resto isn't. Am I mistaken?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, bronze johnny said:

Nothing wrong with testing it on the label. As for identifying pressing- see enough books and you can tell. 

How many books is "enough"? What is it that you think you're seeing?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Pressing really is one of those things that you have to do to understand. Sounds snobbish, I'm sure, but it's still true. Yes, there are lots of pressers out there that squash books, no doubt. But there are pressers out there who can, and do, make books indistinguishable from their unpressed counterparts. Pressing isn't difficult...but it does require a certain set of personality traits to do it well.

[RockMyAmadeus]

10 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Where you can't - nothing wrong with "pressed- inconclusive (on either a blue or purple label).

Nobody's ever going to accept that on a label.

[bronze johnny]

11 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Pressing really is one of those things that you have to do to understand. Sounds snobbish, I'm sure, but it's still true. Yes, there are lots of pressers out there that squash books, no doubt. But there are pressers out there who can, and do, make books indistinguishable from their unpressed counterparts. Pressing isn't difficult...but it does require a certain set of personality traits to do it well.

Good point.

[Logan510]

18 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Nothing wrong with testing it on the label. As for identifying pressing- see enough books and you can tell. May not always get it right, but you'll know it when you see it. Where you can't - nothing wrong with "pressed- inconclusive (on either a blue or purple label)."

So you’d like the equivalent of a “maybe” on the label? I don’t see that ever happening.

[namisgr]

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

It already does.

As I said 10 years ago, if someone wants an unpressed book you just need to be able to pay the unpressed price...much like other factors draw a premium price (Pedigree, outstanding appeal, etc) unpressed books also do.

If you're a collector of high grade Silver Age and/or key Bronze Age comics, it's almost impossible to amass an unpressed collection in today's hobby.

As for the notion mentioned earlier that pressing is virtually impossible to detect, that's just not the case with early Silver Age Marvels.

Finally, one of the consequences of rampant pressing and an in-house pressing service that has emerged as new to the hobby since the advent of CGC is the adjusting of the grading scale to favor books with natural features pressed out and to ignore unnatural features that pressing introduces.  A slight bend in the top overhang or right edge overhang of the cover or a tiny surface impression only visible at a sharp angle are usually enough to keep an early SA Marvel out of the ultra high grades.  When they get removed by pressing the grade often goes up accordingly, but the comic often suffers from some combination of the stigmata of pressing: a flattened spine, fuzzy staple holes from slight movement of the cover during the process, a 'starched collar' look to the overhang, interior pages that protrude out of the cover especially along the top half of the right edge, horizontal stress lines where the ex-overhang meets the interior pages, and more.  If you're like me and don't care as much for comics that look that way, then as a hobbyist your recourse is to either suck it up and accept slews of pressed books into your SA collection, or sell your SA collection and move on.

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by namisgr

[RockMyAmadeus]

18 minutes ago, namisgr said:

the stigmata of pressing: a flat spine, fuzzy staple holes, a starched collar overhang, interior pages that protrude out of the cover especially along the top half of the right edge, and more.  

There is no doubt that there are a lot of people who don't know what they're doing, doing work to books that make them end up like this, and there are a lot of books that end up looking like that.

However, that's not true of everyone.

It's the same caveat: bad pressing is easy to detect. Sloppy pressing is easy to detect. Proper pressing is not.