Bird Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 I have something like 32 pieces of art on my walls, mostly comic art. My wife saw the #comicsgate controversy that has been happening online and mentioned it to me; I told her that we have art on the walls by artists on both sides of the divide. (She knows we have Sienkiewicz as she follows him on twitter.) She gave me a look and said something like "I am not sure that I like that" but I have no intention to change anything out. I have an editorial cartoon by Winsor McCay on the wall but it is more patriotic than political but I guess that I wouldn't have it there if it was about something I find offensive. I am not going to move the Sienkiewicz next to the Bretweiser or anything but in the current political climate where few talk and most yell I wonder if any of the pieces can be "ruined" for me. So do you fear hearing the political views of your comic heroes? (This thread is NOT about those views, or even your views, but IF it bothers you when those views are not complimentary to yours.) I must admit though, the wife has me thinking about it. I remember being in line with a lurker here who told me about how he almost came to blows with Barry Windsor-Smith and that BWS better not start that again this time. We have perhaps met our heroes who can be rude, is this issue different or just more of the same? KobaltDog and timguerrero 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post comix4fun Posted September 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2018 Differing political views, in the traditional sense, never bothered me in the artists I collect. People can carry differing view of what works best for the betterment of all with neither being seen as an "enemy" or a "monster" etc. Where I draw the line is when creators reveal more "hate-based" opinions or stances, or where a creator has been convicted of a crime involving something prurient, violent, or the like. I don't view those as differences of political opinion as much as character flaws because there's no excuse for espousing hatred, for example, (whether it be along racial, ethnic, gender, or other lines) even if it is couched in political jargon. Very hard to look at pieces the same way when so much of the piece's appreciation for me is who the creator is, if that creator espouses stances that are based in hate, intolerance, racism, etc. timguerrero, Prince Namor, Shepherd and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 well said I don't really have a social media presence and only know of these things peripherally. Ignorance is bliss perhaps. timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 2 hours ago, comix4fun said: Differing political views, in the traditional sense, never bothered me in the artists I collect. People can carry differing view of what works best for the betterment of all with neither being seen as an "enemy" or a "monster" etc. Where I draw the line is when creators reveal more "hate-based" opinions or stances, or where a creator has been convicted of a crime involving something prurient, violent, or the like. I don't view those as differences of political opinion as much as character flaws because there's no excuse for espousing hatred, for example, (whether it be along racial, ethnic, gender, or other lines) even if it is couched in political jargon. Very hard to look at pieces the same way when so much of the piece's appreciation for me is who the creator is, if that creator espouses stances that are based in hate, intolerance, racism, etc. Most art in this hobby is also collaborative. Dave Sim was (ave May still be) a misogynistic asswhole. Yet Gerhard, his brilliant collaborator on Cerebus, is as decent a person as there is. Would I turn down a great Cerebus page by Sim/Gerhard? No. F For Fake and timguerrero 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twanj Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Hahahaha, NO. I looked at & thought about buying the controversial Ardian Syaf art even tho I definitely didn't agree with his views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohei Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 I have no problem right, left, or center. I do avoid supporting those who push hate speech and division. I picked up a couple Van Sciver pieces when he was on Green Lantern. His behavior since has been reprehensible. I also passed on Syaf due to his promoting hate. It also seems like Van Sciver being out in the open and divisive has hurt his collectors. And I see more, "I won't buy his stuff" comments about either of those two on facebook than I do anywhere else. timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artdealer Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 If an artist/writer wants to aspire to being an A.S.S.H.O.L.E, then go for it. It doesn't mean anyone has to support then, unless they choose to. Plenty of nice, level-headed artists/writers to support out there. #comicsgate. Too many people with too much time on their hands. MI Michael Browning 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxjhnsn Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 I don't know that political positions or even criminal record would stop me from buying an image that I like in the after market. It might stop me from buying directly from the artist depending on the position/crime. s.slayton, timguerrero and williamhlawson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohei Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 42 minutes ago, Bill C said: I think what's dangerous is people citing someone is using hate speech, when in reality they are doing nothing of the sort. That's not really what the thread is supposed to be about. If you want to have a back and forth about what a dirtbag EVS is you can d.m. me. I'm not terribly interested in that discussion though. 45 minutes ago, Bill C said: he's crowdfunding a one shot comic and the $ that came in is absolutely insane Also not the topic. He may be making money from crowdfunding but based on my observations his o.a. doesn't have much resale value a.t.m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted October 1, 2018 Author Share Posted October 1, 2018 Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess for me it is more a case of art I already own that has me thinking. Not really thinking about taking it down but thinking about what it means to me, if anything. I am leaning towards it meaning little to nothing. Buying new art, it might influence me more if buying directly from the artist but seeing as I am looking at art by deceased artists for the most part it may just be moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Marino Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 It just seems a bit insane to me, in this day and age the hurdles to creating your own comic seem to be so much lower than in the past. I'm all for the free market. Go create, and if it's something that has a market then it seems that it's not that hard for those people to find your products with social media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelfan1 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) Can someone explain #comicsgate? Who are the players and what is the issue that could turn off a collector from enjoying the art they already own? Edited October 1, 2018 by Panelfan1 timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstojano Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Panelfan1 said: Can someone explain #comicsgate? Who are the players and what is the issue that could turn off a collector from enjoying the art they already own? Thanks for asking, I did some reading around myself and there isn't a very clear explanation. I think it all unfolds in real time and in places not easily tracked and synthesized. In short, some creators think the liberal bent to comics is ruining things. Sides are formed, people argue on Twitter. Boycotts are called. But I couldn't find a clear list of who is on which team and why. Honestly I am more interested in hearing Barry Windsor Smith stories. And one can only imagine how things would be if all of the Golden Age crowd were still with us. Edited October 1, 2018 by cstojano timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter L Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 10 hours ago, Bird said: I have something like 32 pieces of art on my walls, mostly comic art. My wife saw the #comicsgate controversy that has been happening online and mentioned it to me; I told her that we have art on the walls by artists on both sides of the divide. (She knows we have Sienkiewicz as she follows him on twitter.) She gave me a look and said something like "I am not sure that I like that" but I have no intention to change anything out. I have an editorial cartoon by Winsor McCay on the wall but it is more patriotic than political but I guess that I wouldn't have it there if it was about something I find offensive. I am not going to move the Sienkiewicz next to the Bretweiser or anything but in the current political climate where few talk and most yell I wonder if any of the pieces can be "ruined" for me. So do you fear hearing the political views of your comic heroes? (This thread is NOT about those views, or even your views, but IF it bothers you when those views are not complimentary to yours.) I must admit though, the wife has me thinking about it. I remember being in line with a lurker here who told me about how he almost came to blows with Barry Windsor-Smith and that BWS better not start that again this time. We have perhaps met our heroes who can be rude, is this issue different or just more of the same? It doesn't affect my collecting. Sometimes it's good not to meet your heroes. Most of the time I've met my heroes in sports or in comics, things have not been that great. No one can live up to the expectations that we put on people we admire. timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Peter L Posted October 1, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Panelfan1 said: Can someone explain #comicsgate? Who are the players and what is the issue that could turn off a collector from enjoying the art they already own? My hope is that this is a neutrally written summary. I would follow this issue on social media but finally it just broke my heart and started to sap away my love of comics so I stopped trying to follow along. EVS has a video blog and he discusses his opinions of comics and popular arts. Not all of those who express support of comicsgate hold all of these following views. Some of the criticisms are that comics are bad for (at one point recently) recasting all of their major heroes as women including Captain America, Wolverine, Thor, and Iron Man. They would argue that they should make new characters instead of turning their favorite characters either women or not straight. They believe that comics have gotten too liberal and cite as examples portraying Trump as Modok and the Mockingbird cover where she wears a shirt that says, "Ask me about my feminist agenda." They say they are not misogynistic, homophobic or racist but just want good comic stories without any political agenda. Some followers have reportedly complained that they cannot get jobs in comics because they are not diverse or women and they believe that some have gotten comic jobs without qualifications or skill because they are women or ethnically diverse. They assert that conservative creators have been blacklisted from Marvel and DC. In response, EVS has crowdfunded a comic featuring his character cyberfrog and has raised about $600,000. He says comicsgaters only want good stories and heroes without agendas. Comicsgate supporters say they are boycotting many comics of the big 2 and claim this is why sales are down and comic shops are closing. There is an overlap of those who support comicsgate and those who didn't like The Last Jedi and for many of the same reasons. In one of the most criticized actions, on EVS video blog, he reportedly broke a Rose Tico doll to criticize what he felt was a poorly written character arc. The opposing side believes that comicsgate supporters are misogynistic, homophobic and racist for not wanting diversity. Most of the comics industry working for DC and Marvel are on this side. They believe that comics were always political and cite Captain America punching Hitler and one of Superman's first actions as beating up a wife abuser and Stan Lee's soapboxes. Some of the more vocal names include Gail Simone, Mark Waid,, Kurt Busiek, and the comic blogs Comic Book Resources and Bleeding Cool. They believe that comicsgate is part of the alt-right movement and cyberfrog is a homage of the white supremacist meme of Peppe the Frog. They have expressed outrage that EVS has not denounced comicsgate followers who cyber bullied female Marvel editors who went to buy milkshakes, or transexual comic colorist Tamra Bonvillain. They say that those comicsgaters who can't get comic jobs are because of their talent and not because of favoritism. As an example Gail Simone posted comic work in progress on a comicsgater who said he was blacklisted. The work that she posted appeared to be crudely drawn and written and below the standards of DC and Marvel and he was ridiculed online. They say that EVS breaking the Rose Tico doll was a sign of misogny and racism because no other dolls of other male or Caucasian characters were destroyed on the show, and subsequently actress Rose Marie Tan was harassed off of social media. Joe Quesada has commented that something like 45 out of 50 current Marvel titles are purely action without agenda and not created by the most vocal liberal creators, and so that comicsgaters are exaggerating their complaints. There is very bad feelings on both sides and both sides seem to believe the worst about those with differing opinions. One of Darwyn Cooke's friends Billy Tucci said he would have some of the same concerns about modern comics as comicsgate, and his widow responded that her husband would have thought comicsgate supporters were "insufficiently_thoughtful_persons." Comicsgate supporters then attacked her and EVS asked them to "respect her and offer her excessive kindness even if you disagree with her words," and then she called EVS out for not denouncing the racist and homophobic actions of comicsgaters on social media. Comicsgaters tried to claim creators including Neil Gaiman had published comic work before he was offered regular work at DC, unlike some who got work today. Then Gaiman disagreed with this and said he had only published two prose stories up to the time he was given a chance to write Black Orchid and then Sandman. Then comicsgaters attempted to attack him saying that his resume disagrees with this, but then he explained why that was incorrect, and then he was attacked more on social media. Comics creator Richard Meyer has filed suit against Mark Waid saying that Waid interfered with his comic getting distributed because of support for Comicsgate, although Waid says this is untrue. Some things I forgot to add: Mike Deodato said that he and others would refuse to appear at a comic con if a comicsgate supporting creator appeared. This seemed to have the effect of the comic con making a choice to cancel the comicsgate creator or lose a lot more popular creators appearing. So this boycott would fundamentally remove a platform for those who support comicsgate. Dave Sim said he would help EVS on cyberfrog. Anti-comicsgaters criticize EVS for supposed racism and misogyny and point to a recently created female superhero like Green Lantern Jessica Cruz as a success. Then EVS responded by pointing out that he co-created her. Frank Cho walked off of Wonder Woman after his sixth cover because it was edited to remove her bottom in a disagreement with the writer of the book Greg Rucka. Many of Cho's statements at that time criticizing agenda filled comics and censoring sexy women parts appeared to line up with comicsgate complaints. When coimcisgate social media users began to use Cho as an example of their issues, Cho distanced himself from the movement and saying he doesn't support it and the racism associated with it. He was applauded by the anti-comicsgate supporters while at the same time still criticized by the same people for his sexy outrage covers. Bill Sienkievich's public statements came along with many other creators in support of Darwyn Cooke's widow's comments and subsequent attacks upon her. Comicsgaters will cite the box office failure of Solo to a boycott from those who didn't like the social agenda of the Last Jedi.Last year, Marvel’s vice president of sales has blamed declining comic-book sales on the studio’s efforts to increase diversity and female characters, saying that readers “were turning their noses up” at diversity and “didn’t want female characters out there”. Comicsgaters then applauded the private mysterious firing of Marvel EIC Alex Alonso, who oversaw many of the diversity changes in the comics while also mirrored a downturn in sales. Comicsgaters use the dropping sales as a sign of their boycott working. Chelsea Cain is the writer who wrote the controversial Mockingbird series with the "feminist agenda" shirt. It was cancelled soon after due to low sales but reportedly the publicity helped it to sell better on digital later. Marvel just totally cancelled her Vision series that had cover art done, and the first few issues completed. The stated reason given was that Marvel wanted to use the characters in a different way, even though she and her husband started work on this series about 18 months ago. Cain unloaded on Marvel for what she felt was poor treatment of their independent contractors. Edited October 1, 2018 by Peter L Catwoman_Fan, MagnusX, Twanj and 5 others 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelfan1 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 Thanks for the explaining. Seems like something that will pass in a year or 2. Meanwhike, will try and focus on art and avoid getting involved in such a distraction. Hopefully comics will be better in the long run thanks to arguments and solutions from arguments such as these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voord Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 14 hours ago, Bill C said: I think what's dangerous is people citing someone is using hate speech, when in reality they are doing nothing of the sort. I see a lot of that daily. I think a lot of it comes down to people's POV, which may or may not be skewed. Most of the problems seem to come down to people being offended incredibly easily, and labeling anything they don't like as hate speech. This. We get a lot of it in British politics. Political Correctness, we call it. Mr. Machismo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 9 hours ago, Peter L said: My hope is that this is a neutrally written summary. I would follow this issue on social media but finally it just broke my heart and started to sap away my love of comics so I stopped trying to follow along. EVS has a video blog and he discusses his opinions... Responding to this Peter L summary with the assumption that it covers the bases pretty well. I wasn't aware of this before this thread and otherwise don't really care; the preceding sentence is to cover any yahoos that will criticize what follows on some minutiae that wasn't summarized by Peter L and that I'm not aware of...cuz there's always at least one of those types lurking about There is an agenda. It's to make money. And right now SWJ's are the big spend demographic and all (or most) the media companies can/will cater to that. Duh. And just like a lot of people used to be uncomfortable with the N-word going all the way back decades and even a hundred years ago, few spoke up because of the prevailing demographic. Same with dirty jokes in mixed company (or even unmixed!) and pin-ups in cubicles. Not everybody was down with one, the other, any of them, whatever but what a dork, right, the guy that didn't laugh at the "joke". Yeah? Now it's the reverse for all the SWJ talking points...probably very few wholly subscribe to the entire position platform, but to disagree with any isn't worth the trouble of being labeled "Steve Bannon-ish" alt-right, or similar, whether actually true or not. Easier to just stfu until you get home among your own and then rail at the wife (or husband) about the stupidity etc of the human race...broadly. Clearly...there were a lot of votes for Trump, cast mostly in anonymity, something that wasn't going to happen by shoving a camera in somebody's face and asking them pre-Nov who they were going to vote for, to possibly be later broadcast on TV or YouTube. Shee-out...families were very split internally on the same subject, and didn't even know it! (Because who wanted to be on the "wrong" side of that question and be compelled to "justify" it somehow?!) Same as it used to be if you were a woman in a man's world or a color in a white world 'back in the day'. But those that need to SELL...they go where the money is and WILL be spent. And I think that's the SWJ crowd all day long. Or rather that's the perception and maybe there is a case of pandering to the LCD here too? Because comic editors/publishers...they've always sort of painted with really broad strokes and alienated so many at the same time. We just happen to be a crossroads here demographically with a lot of social subjects on the table, the comics (imo) haven't gotten particularly better, and they were never all that good...if you were older than 12 years old Because I always separate the quality of a creation from the creator's private life, the first I care about and the second is curiosity at best, I'll just post this image of an excellent book with no further need for me to comment... timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjonahjameson11 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 19 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said: Most art in this hobby is also collaborative. Dave Sim was (ave May still be) a misogynistic asswhole. Yet Gerhard, his brilliant collaborator on Cerebus, is as decent a person as there is. Would I turn down a great Cerebus page by Sim/Gerhard? No. Dave Sim was not/ is not what you state. I’ve known the man for over 30 years. What is your personal experience/connection to him to draw such a conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said: Dave Sim was not/ is not what you state. I’ve known the man for over 30 years. What is your personal experience/connection to him to draw such a conclusion? Philip can speak for himself but my similar impression is based solely on what Denise Loubert publicized about Dave and their relationship. Only remembering that from the 80s CBG news era...I've always considered it just one side of the story but hardly the only side. It just happens to be the only side I'm aware of. What that has to do with buying or not buying Cerebus/art...that is beyond me. One that is bothered however could wonder if they should support Gerhard, as he worked with Dave for so long, something which could be consider approval of "Dave" (whatever that means) of a sort. Again...I do not give a sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...