How many people would you expect to attend?

[lighthouse]

I am in the midst of a polite discussion over in Comic Events, and I am curious what board members think.

 

What would your expected attendance be if you were a dealer setting up at a one-day comic show in a major metro area (1 million plus) with a table fee somewhere in the $40-75 range per table?

[jbud73]

Oh ya and, WB Lighthouse.

[lighthouse]

Interesting results so far...

 

But then I like the Chili Cheese Fries at Weinerschnitzel so what do I know?

[FlyingDonut]

When you say "people", do you mean people in the door or comic buyers? For example, if I come with my two children, do we count as one or three?

[lighthouse]

If the promoter charged attendance for the little ones, they are attendees...

 

Because I guarantee you, he is going to count them as attendees when he pitches his next show.

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Free admission...?

 

And how much/what kind of advertising is put into this show...?

 

variables, 'house, it's all about variables.

 

Rick

[FlyingDonut]

If the promoter charged attendance for the little ones, they are attendees...

 

Because I guarantee you, he is going to count them as attendees when he pitches his next show.

 

500+, especially if the table costs $75. I'm sure I'm low.

[aardvark88]

Is the comicon in USA or Armpit, Canada?

[deathlok]

The local show here in Los Angeles run by a local dealer has under 500 in attendance. He charges about $85 for 10x10 space. He advertises minimally. He has guest artists and writers, as well as movie tie-ins.

[Timely]

I attended a con in Bakersfield, CA, population in the area is about 50,000 (however it was 2 hours north of LA) and the attendance was about 1500. Apparantly there's not much to do in Bakersfield on a Sunday so 3% of it's populaion showed up!

 

West

[That Ron Dude]

In Toronto, the one day shows had a hugely varying turn out. I don't think they ever got much past 700 though, and that was years ago.

[Sonofpromoterman]

Well Lighthouse,

 

Have you gotten enough votes to support your platform? In case you folks are wondering I am one of the reasons Mr. Lighthouse is going thru all the trouble of taking this poll.He is unhappy with attendance at my shows even though he has never paid to be a dealer or to even paid to get in.

 

I am such a evil person or as he says a "dirtbag promoter". I did tell him I was sorry we did not meet his expectations.

 

 

 

 

James Vaughn

JMV Entertainment

[uclapeterg]

The local show here in Los Angeles run by a local dealer has under 500 in attendance. He charges about $85 for 10x10 space. He advertises minimally. He has guest artists and writers, as well as movie tie-ins.

 

Does he really get under 500? It depends on the show also. I used to work for Bruce so maybe I should just ask him.

[lighthouse]

Let me be the first to say:

 

WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!

 

 

Just curious, Mr Vaughn... how many people do you think a dealer should expect to see when he buys tables at $40-75 each?

 

How many people do you think are implicitly promised to the dealer by the promoter when the promoter is charging $40-75 a table?

 

At San Diego they charge around $1800 a booth, and you get around 40,000-50,000 attendees. They pad their stats by counting some multiple day attendees twice, but that's about what you see.

 

At Wizard World Texas last November, they charged $600 a booth, and there were around 4,500 attendees.

 

At the first Emerald City Comic-Con back in 2003, they charged $175 a booth, and there were 2300 attendees.

 

At Richard Finn's shows in Portland, Oregon, he charges $90 a table and there are 1600 attendees.

 

At Steve Minor's shows in Seattle, Washington, he charges $60 a table and there are 600 attendees.

 

At Dale Eckman's shows in San Antonio, Texas, he charges $40 a table and there are 450 attendees.

 

Since you are participating in my thread about expected attendance at a comic show, what is your opinion on the subject?

 

'House

[Sonofpromoterman]

Well since you asked so nicely,

 

Attendance goals at shows are at best a shot in the dark.You have to adjust it based on the number of days and number of tables ,cost of tables,number of tables sold.

 

As a promoter for every 25 tables at $50.00 - $75.00 each my goal is to have 200 + collectors thru the door per day at a collectors show.

 

As a show dealer my goal is to gross 10 times or more the amount of what I paid for a table per day.If I pay $50 for 1 table for a one day show I expect to gross $500 in sales at a minimum.

 

 

If I put on a one day 100 table show then at minimum I should see 800 people thru the door because you need that many people because anything less and dealers lose sales.

 

Table cost will affect advertising. The lower the table cost the lower the advertising.

Newspaper ads in Houston ,Dallas,San Antonio and Austin run betwen $195.00 - $325 per column inch and that is a small ad for 1 day.

 

When dealers wait till the last minute to pay for tables then the promoter has no money left for advertising because all his money is tied up in hotel or convention center deposits.

 

In Texas this is true for most card and comic dealers who complain that $50.00 is too high and try to get promoters to give them a "deal".I call this " a paper cut".When you get too many "paper cuts" you bleed to death financially and you faced with a choice.Capitulate and bleed to death or stand firm and be prepared to be a one man show when necessary.Cancellation is a last resort but sometimes necessary because when it comes obvious you can not even make a funky dollar.

 

I try to focus my shows on particular hobbies with one day shows that way they are more easier to control costs. They may be small but that is the market niche that I have chosen at this time.

 

You quoted Dale show attendance as 450 for a 100 - 130 table show.Keep in mind that is a Card,Comic and Toy show.Now subtract the non comic dealers and collectors and how many true comic book dealers and collectors are showing up.

 

Keeping that in mind do you see why even though I was the only dealer at my show the ratio of dealer to collector was ok.

 

Of course I want to see more dealers in the room because more dealers means more collectors thru the door.

 

 

 

James Vaughn

JMV Entertainment

[Kevin Boyd]

Attendance goals at shows are at best a shot in the dark.You have to adjust it based on the number of days and number of tables ,cost of tables,number of tables sold.

 

Agreed. I've been involved with putting on one-day and three-day comic cons in the Toronto area, and it is hard to estimate how many attendees will show. You can base your projections on the previous show's attendance and the time of year, but in the end, you go into each show unsure of how many people will show.

 

As Ron has pointed out, one-day comics only shows in TO get, at best, 500-700 people through the door, even with plenty of advertising. There are additional tricks one can pull to try to bump up attendance... free admission, contests, etc. But these are all revenue drains and unless you can write these off as, say, advertising for a larger event, then a small promoter can't take that additional hit.

 

If I put on a one day 100 table show then at minimum I should see 800 people thru the door because you need that many people because anything less and dealers lose sales.

 

Did you just make that up?

 

Table cost will affect advertising. The lower the table cost the lower the advertising. Newspaper ads in Houston ,Dallas,San Antonio and Austin run betwen $195.00 - $325 per column inch and that is a small ad for 1 day.

 

IF I were doing a one-day show. I would sit down and make a budget for the show. I would check with my hall on availability and cost. Then I would talk to the local dealers who I have built up a relationship with and always do my shows and see if they are interested in supporting a show on the dates I have selected, and see how many tables they would commit to. Knowing that a certain % of my tables are essentially pre-sold I would then decide on how much money I would commit to advertising, a guest budget, etc.

 

When dealers wait till the last minute to pay for tables then the promoter has no money left for advertising because all his money is tied up in hotel or convention center deposits.

 

Agreed. It's 10 times worse when you are doing a bigger show. As momentum builds the more they see the benefit of paying a deposit for the tables up front.

 

In Texas this is true for most card and comic dealers who complain that $50.00 is too high and try to get promoters to give them a "deal".I call this " a paper cut".

 

Not just in Texas. Thankfully the majority of professional dealers do not do this, unless they don't make money at your shows.

 

When you get too many "paper cuts" you bleed to death financially and you faced with a choice.Capitulate and bleed to death or stand firm and be prepared to be a one man show when necessary.Cancellation is a last resort but sometimes necessary because when it comes obvious you can not even make a funky dollar.

 

Again, it gets into the case of whether or not you have the support of the local community of stores and dealers and some of the bigger national dealers. If you don't then you really are a one-man show, and I don't see the point of doing a one-man comic book show because your attendees won't come back if they are unimpressed with the event.

 

Cancellation is ridiculous... you shouldn't announce a show if you don't have dealer support. To me that's crucial.

 

I try to focus my shows on particular hobbies with one day shows that way they are more easier to control costs. They may be small but that is the market niche that I have chosen at this time.

 

You quoted Dale show attendance as 450 for a 100 - 130 table show.Keep in mind that is a Card,Comic and Toy show.Now subtract the non comic dealers and collectors and how many true comic book dealers and collectors are showing up.

 

Comics only shows do not attract big crowds, but 450 people isn't an unrealistic number for a one-day show in a major centre.

 

Keeping that in mind do you see why even though I was the only dealer at my show the ratio of dealer to collector was ok.

 

Huh? How is that ok? That's like having a sale in your garage. Why bother going to a hall or a special location? Tape a few flyers on some lamp-posts and put an ad in your classified section 'cause a "show" with one dealer sure isn't a show.

 

Of course I want to see more dealers in the room because more dealers means more collectors thru the door.

 

Then find some dealers other than yourself to do a show with you. When you've got some you should then announce your dates.

[shadroch]

When I did shows,we would get between 250 to 400 people for about 25 tables.We would have a guest every other show and they rarely caused that major a bump in attendence.

If I do a show that cost me $75,I expect to do at least $500. However,as I am only selling items that I've long since paid for,I have much lower expectations than someone selling new books or recent items.

I don't really think you can quantify small shows stictly by numbers. Its the number of buyers that are important,not the number of people present.Some dealers that are store owners will use shows more as promotinal ops and if they get some new buyers into their stores,that's important.

Although its off-topic,let me say this. I've been the only comic dealer at a sports card show and done fantastic,but other times have failed to make table money.Same thing at flea markets and street fairs. I once sold out of the 50 Cerebus back issues I had with me at a NYC street fair,yet didn't sell 5% of the ones I had with me two weeks later and two blocks away.

BTW-I voted for 201-300 peope,but if I wasn't doing at least $500 I wouldn't be a regular dealer.

[Sonofpromoterman]

Thanks fellas for the helpful insights

 

 

Kevin for your insights from a national level promoter and Shadroch for your views as a smaller show promoter.

 

Its a breath of fresh air to read about other collectibles show promoters experiences.

 

I will try to apply some of the those tips at my shows .

 

If me or my fellow Texas forum members seem agressive and rude to each other dont mind us its just the summer heat. Then again we are like this in the Winter too !

 

 

James Vaughn

JMV Entertainment

[Apotheosis]

It depends on where it is. We have only one Con a year here in Phoenix (5th largest city in the country) and only about 200 - 300 people attend. Then again... their marketing sucks. It's also not at a central location. Our biggest comic chain (4 stores) didn't promote or attend it. Quite a few factors are going to determine your foot traffic.

[Sonofpromoterman]

How far is the next big city to Phoenix not counting Tucson ? I am originally from New Mexico and I know that its hundreds of miles between large cities and the desert southwest is not exactly brimming with comic book dealers like the US Northeast,Eastern Canada or even Southern California.

 

Comic shop owners can be very territorial and may not feel that supporting comic book shows are in their best financial interest.Or as one shop owner told me once...

 

 

"Why should I as a comic shop owner who depends on the money this shop makes for food and shelter not only for me but my family as well support a show that has mostly weekend warrior comic dealers competing for the same collector dollars that I depend on for my daily existance."

 

 

Maybe you can suggest to the promoter to put his show on quarterly rather than annually if its only a one day show.

 

By the way are there any one day shows in Phoenix on a quarterly basis ?

 

 

 

James Vaughn

JMV Entertainment