Does CGC offer any signature verification for already signed books? 0

[tv horror]

On 2/8/2019 at 2:21 PM, serling1978 said:

Good list of options. Thanks. 

I've got the book in a long box temporarily in storage so if the can get to it any time soon I'll get a pic.

I was doing some googling last night and I realized I forgot how wildly Stan's signature varies. So I don't think there's realistically any way a mortal man can look and say one vs another is 100% fake. To illustrate: below is a lineup of signed Avengers #1's. If anyone wants to play along, feel free to try to guess which ones are verified slabbed sigs and which are unverified (and possibly fake). If anyone is totally right you get a No Prize. Refer to them in order from top to bottom. #1 being the top and #10 being the bottom.

This makes me so sad seeing these covers ruined for generations to come, I don't mind a reprint signed, in fact I have the Dynamic forces signed Stan Lee of X-men 1 and I'm happy with that. No I would never give an original comic to be signed on its cover. 

[Genuine Article Comics]

Take your book to CBCS for their VSP program. It's a great service that fills a need in the hobby.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Angelo. said:

Take your book to CBCS for their VSP program. It's a great service that fills a need in the hobby.

It's an opinion. That's completely different than the service that CGC performs with witnessed signatures. That's called authentication, and like the Sly and the Family Stone song, "it can be right, or it can be wrong". I've seen numerous examples of both, that IMO were incorrect calls.

What CGC does is the same as a notary. It's not an opinion. It's verification. Authentication = opinion, right or wrong vs. Verification = eye-witnessed signing. Which would you rather have?

[Genuine Article Comics]

Yes, but this is after the fact. The book is already signed. You can't verify an already signed book, you can only authenticate. Authentication is used in courts of law. It's the opinion of professionals. Authentication is a tool, a professional opinion, when going back in time to witness is not possible.  Many signatures are of creators who have since passed away where witnessing is impossible.  Authentication = opinions of professional hand writing experts using known verified examples of signatures. And besides all this, let's not get into the facts that there are potential issues with the witnessing program itself.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Angelo.

[Gaard]

I don't do signatures, but if I did I think I'd like a VSP service. Like you said, many sigs are from days-gone-by.

[MR SigS]

Can one get a phony sig certified at CBCS? Yes.
Can one get an authentic sig denied at CBCS? Yes.

The same questions posed to CGC get "no" for both answers.
 

[kav]

On 2/9/2019 at 4:53 AM, 01TheDude said:

with the enormous number of authentic (and SS verified to boot) Stan Lee signatures floating around in the collecting world, I can never understand why getting this signature is so sought after. The prices for those verified authentic (SS for certain) books are more expensive since they clearly were paid for from the signature (typically $100-150) along with the slabbing costs if done on a decently valued book to begin with (and god forbid a mega key)-- holy cow does it get ridiculous. More alarming is that is defies the logic of supply and demand.

Personally-- I am not a fan of signing comic books to begin with. It is writing on the cover, plain and simple. As Kav and others have pointed out-- someday, this hobby will probably also come to that conclusion save for a handful of very well presenting examples. But for those people who had him sign some reader bronze age book of no significance-- AND had that book slabbed-- to those people, I don't know what to say. If it is something for your personal collection-- did you need to get it authenticated? Seems like the main reason to have a SS is to either resell it at a significant mark up OR that you have most of your treasured books in CGC cases and OCD forces you to follow suit.

If I were ever interested in getting a Stan signature when he was alive - I would have simply had him sign a decent copy of something he worked on that was not worth a ton on its own and not even bother with SS. That book would have only been for me - and I would never have to worry about "proving" it was authentic since I had no intention of selling it.

But everyone collects the way they like to and that is what the focus should be on. If you want to amass a bunch of Stan Lee (or even just one) that is CGC SS --  more power to you. It is just not for everyone. And in answer to the original question-- CGC will not authenticate without witnessing and if you have one that is raw, I would just keep it that way.

Agree.  I can see-I guess-having him sign some nothing book.  Heck I had Chuck Rozanski sign my strange adventures when I met him.  But signing AF15?  To me, that is a tragedy.

[kav]

16 hours ago, Angelo. said:

Yes, but this is after the fact. The book is already signed. You can't verify an already signed book, you can only authenticate. Authentication is used in courts of law. It's the opinion of professionals. Authentication is a tool, a professional opinion, when going back in time to witness is not possible.  Many signatures are of creators who have since passed away where witnessing is impossible.  Authentication = opinions of professional hand writing experts using known verified examples of signatures. And besides all this, let's not get into the facts that there are potential issues with the witnessing program itself.

when used in courts the authenticator's credentials and expertise must be established.  Authentication companies that just do blind authentication without saying who authenticated it and what their credentials are is entirely different.  From watching pawn stars real authenticators give a percentage-like they will say I am 80% confident this sig is legit.  Maybe @James J Johnson can clarify but I dont think without iron clad provenance any legit authenticator will say 'this is absolutely signed by irving forbush' or whatever.

[mattn792]

The world needs more PGX “authenticated” Ditko signatures.

[kav]

4 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

The world needs more PGX “authenticated” Ditko signatures.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, kav said:

when used in courts the authenticator's credentials and expertise must be established.  Authentication companies that just do blind authentication without saying who authenticated it and what their credentials are is entirely different.  From watching pawn stars real authenticators give a percentage-like they will say I am 80% confident this sig is legit.  Maybe @James J Johnson can clarify but I dont think without iron clad provenance any legit authenticator will say 'this is absolutely signed by irving forbush' or whatever.

That is correct. Authenticators, professionals anyway, never state that their opinion is absolute. They preface their opinion with, "In my opinion....", which it is, unless it's a signature they witnessed, and in that case would state that.

[James J Johnson]

26 minutes ago, kav said:

          

[James J Johnson]

18 hours ago, Angelo. said:

  using known verified examples of signatures.

And that's the inherent problem with today's "jack of all trades" authentication companies. Companies that issue COAs for tens of thousands of different signatures most of which are based on comparing exemplars. Some of which are the very same exemplars that forgers, both inept and extremely gifted are using to craft their forgeries.

Decades ago,  specialists had their opinions sought. There are experts in one, two, three, etc. signatures. They've spent a lifetime studying those particular signatures and can readily identify a signature from every phase of a signor's lifetime without having to compare examples. And they can do it from the vibe of the piece. Pick up on these very little things that are atypical. Frank Caiazzo for beatles signatures is one example. A COA from Frank for Beatles signatures trumps anything that JSA or PSA can give you and multiplies the value immensely because everyone knows that Frank is the ultimately authority for that. 

Jack of all trades, masters of few. That's the companies that will authenticate anything you send them based on exemplars, even if they only have one! Do you know that JSA actually authenticated a Cheetah autograph? Yes. The monkey from the Tarzan flicks in the 30s. He based his COA on 1 exemplar and later, it was found that the item that "Cheetah" signed, his signature being a few random squiggles, much like the signatures of Johnny Depp and Al Pacino, was signed on a reprint photo printed a decade or more after the original Cheetah died.

Going to authenticators who rely on exemplars for their authentications = going to a general practitioner for brain surgery.

Edited May 3, 2020 by James J Johnson

[kav]

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

And that's the inherent problem with today's "jack of all trades" authentication companies. Companies that issue COAs for tens of thousands of different signatures most of which are based on comparing exemplars. Some of which are the very same exemplars that forgers, both inept and extremely gifted are using to craft their forgeries.

Decades ago,  specialists had their opinions sought. There are experts in one, two, three, etc. signatures. They've spent a lifetime studying those particular signatures and can readily identify a signature from every phase of a signor's lifetime without having to compare examples. And they can do it from the vibe of the piece. Pick up on these very little things that are atypical. Frank Caiazzo for beatles signatures is one example. A COA from Frank for Beatles signatures trumps anything that JSA or PSA can give you and multiplies the value immensely because everyone knows that Frank is the ultimately authority for that. 

Jack of all trades, masters of few. That's the companies that will authenticate anything you send them based on exemplars, even if they only have one! Do you know that JSA actually authenticated a Cheetah autograph? Yes. The monkey from the Tarzan flicks in the 30s. He based his COA on 1 exemplar and later, it was found that the item that "Cheetah" signed, his signature being a few random squiggles, much like the signatures of Johnny Depp and Al Pacino, was signed on a reprint photo printed a decade or more after the original Cheetah died.

the sig I use on artwork is very simple, but I have seen people try to copy it.  No can do.  A real sig is as obvious to me as my own face.

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, kav said:

the sig I use on artwork is very simple, but I have seen people try to copy it.  No can do.  A real sig is as obvious to me as my own face.

And the point is that you are an expert on at least one signature. A unique one. Your signature. The autograph authentication specialist is the same. A lifetime of gaining insight and sensitivity into one or only several signor's tendencies and over a large swath of time! An authenticator could look at 1000 attempts by 1000 different forgers to forge your signature. And to the layman, and average mass authenticator, 500 may look dead on. After all, how hard can this be. Looks like 7 nib strokes to me. Fairly simple. Block letters, along cartoon/comic book lettering lines. But then you, a specialist in your own signature, just needs one glance at each forgery to know what's wrong, precisely where and why the vibe is wrong. The track lingers a little too long here and there creating a heavier point in the flow. Or something else so subtle, that only you know that you would never do this or that.

This is what an autograph specialist is. Decades of study and building a sensitivity to the vibe of one or only several signor's tendencies to the point that they know that person's track like their own.

This is specialization and it's as different from general authentication, where someone charged with authenticating 100,000 different signatures based on exemplars, that may be forgeries themselves, is as different as night and day. This is what's missing from PSA, JSA, and the jack of all trade authentication outfits. Specialists.

[kav]

27 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

And the point is that you are an expert on at least one signature. A unique one. Your signature. The autograph authentication specialist is the same. A lifetime of gaining insight and sensitivity into one or only several signor's tendencies and over a large swath of time! An authenticator could look at 1000 attempts by 1000 different forgers to forge your signature. And to the layman, and average mass authenticator, 500 may look dead on. After all, how hard can this be. Looks like 7 nib strokes to me. Fairly simple. Block letters, along cartoon/comic book lettering lines. But then you, a specialist in your own signature, just needs one glance at each forgery to know what's wrong, precisely where and why the vibe is wrong. The track lingers a little too long here and there creating a heavier point in the flow. Or something else so subtle, that only you know that you would never do this or that.

This is what an autograph specialist is. Decades of study and building a sensitivity to the vibe of one or only several signor's tendencies to the point that they know that person's track like their own.

This is specialization and it's as different from general authentication, where someone charged with authenticating 100,000 different signatures based on exemplars, that may be forgeries themselves, is as different as night and day. This is what's missing from PSA, JSA, and the jack of all trade authentication outfits. Specialists.

Just for a few examples-the spacing and positioning of the letters, the angle of the vertical line in the K, 88 degrees, the space between the 2 sloping lines of the A, the longer rt arm of the V, the curves of the box, all these and many more subtleties immediately strike the processing center of my brain, and are a function of how i hold the pen, having 2 fingers missing.  The sig in my sigline is a specialized sig where I took time to make it artistic, but even there there are dozens of subtle factors that I recognize immediately.  And only I can do it time after time, RAPIDLY.

[James J Johnson]

9 hours ago, kav said:

Just for a few examples-the spacing and positioning of the letters, the angle of the vertical line in the K, 88 degrees, the space between the 2 sloping lines of the A, the longer rt arm of the V, the curves of the box, all these and many more subtleties immediately strike the processing center of my brain, and are a function of how i hold the pen, having 2 fingers missing.  The sig in my sigline is a specialized sig where I took time to make it artistic, but even there there are dozens of subtle factors that I recognize immediately.  And only I can do it time after time, RAPIDLY.

There are specialists who can do this with Marilyn Monroe, with Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, etc. Some can do it with more than one signature, they have enormous expertise and a feel for the vibe of two or more signatures. But not that many more, before they have to defer to another expert in that signor or, gasp.... exemplars.  

An exemplar is a snapshot of that particular track, at that particular time and place. It can be atypical, maybe rushed, signed on the run, an unsupported signature, that is, signed without a firm surface as a platform. Or signed with the implement held in an awkward way. Or standing or sitting, all of which are only some of the factors that can cause atypical characteristics. No matter how many exemplars you pull for comparison authentication, it's only a shadow of the real expertise and insight into a signature that a specialist gathers over decades, maybe even a lifetime of seeing and studying the tendencies of thousands of one signor's tracks.

Very subtle nuances that escape most are the way a track thins and thickens at certain points due to the "dance" of the signor's total mechanism, typical to that signor alone. The entire signing mechanism from shoulder to nib. There's so much to it that escape even most experts.

[kav]

9 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

There are specialists who can do this with Marilyn Monroe, with Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, etc. Some can do it with more than one signature, they have enormous expertise and a feel for the vibe of two or more signatures. But not that many more, before they have to defer to another expert in that signor or, gasp.... exemplars.  

An exemplar is a snapshot of that particular track, at that particular time and place. It can be atypical, maybe rushed, signed on the run, an unsupported signature, that is, signed without a firm surface as a platform. Or signed with the implement held in an awkward way. Or standing or sitting, all of which are only some of the factors that can cause atypical characteristics. No matter how many exemplars you pull for comparison authentication, it's only a shadow of the real expertise and insight into a signature that a specialist gathers over decades, maybe even a lifetime of seeing and studying the tendencies of thousands of one signor's tracks.

Very subtle nuances that escape most are the way a track thins and thickens at certain points due to the "dance" of the signor's total mechanism, typical to that signor alone. The entire signing mechanism from shoulder to nib. There's so much to it that escape even most experts.

i may be wrong but i dont believe anyone could fool me trying to forge my sig.

[James J Johnson]

27 minutes ago, kav said:

i may be wrong but i dont believe anyone could fool me trying to forge my sig.

No, they couldn't. Because a specialist can instinctively approach an authentication and in a glance recognize authenticity, without having to analyze every nuance I speak of. It's engrained in the specialist. You don't need to run checks and balances for each and every parameter I mentioned, and many more I didn't. For the specialist, the analysis takes place almost instantly, without resort to exemplars or even reviewing mental notes. This also takes talent to achieve this highest state of recognition. A signature is artwork. Artists are much more sensitive to these nuances and adapting these mental processes of analysis to instant recognition.

[kav]

6 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

No, they couldn't. Because a specialist can instinctively approach an authentication and in a glance recognize authenticity, without having to analyze every nuance I speak of. It's engrained in the specialist. You don't need to run checks and balances for each and every parameter I mentioned, and many more I didn't. For the specialist, the analysis takes place almost instantly, without resort to exemplars or even reviewing mental notes. This also takes talent to achieve this highest state of recognition. A signature is artwork. Artists are much more sensitive to these nuances and adapting these mental processes of analysis to instant recognition.

It's the same part of the brain that can look at artwork and instantly say thats kirby or thats adams without pulling out a ruler and analyzing line width etc.