MCU's THE ETERNALS (11/6/20) 8 8

[Bosco685]

On 11/7/2021 at 9:40 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

At this point, I don't think Eternals is dividing audiences per the Hollywood Reporter headline above. It's the critics who are divided at nearly 50%. On RT and on other social media, audiences are generally saying they liked or loved Eternals. At the theater yesterday, as the credits rolled and a large family in the row in front of me waited for the final credit scene, a young boy got up and hilariously asked each member of his group "Did you like the movie?" down the row. They all answered "Yes" and the boy gave them all a high five. In the hallway, folks coming out of the screening talked about the implications of what they just saw and seemed to be positive about the movie. Eternals no doubt has its pre-haters, but people without that prenatal hate in their heart all seem to agree that Eternals is a good and enjoyable movie.

I have to disagree. On social media and even movie forums I belong to the reactions are divided.

A portion note "This is what the MCU needed in breaking the mold" and others are noting...

It is going to take time for folks to get comfortable with the new deconstruction approach. Maybe I do need to go see this during the week.

[drotto]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:22 PM, Bosco685 said:

I have to disagree. On social media and even movie forums I belong to the reactions are divided.

A portion note "This is what the MCU needed in breaking the mold" and others are noting...

It is going to take time for folks to get comfortable with the new deconstruction approach. Maybe I do need to go see this during the week.

Early predictions are now saying a 70% or greater drop off for weekend two. This is in line with how most big movies are preforming during the pandemic. I also am seeing very divided opinions on this film.  I know I am a very small sample group, but outside of this forum, I do not know a single friend that has expressed any interest in this film.  I used to attend every MCU opening with a group of at least 8 to 12 people.  Hell, we even saw Solo as a group opening weekend. If you look past RT, Metacritic is showing a 6.6.  To be honest that sounds pretty fair.  

 

I do wonder if an interesting pattern is starting to emerge for MCU movies.  Are we finally seeing what the die hard, will always see a Marvel movie audience truly is?  I know the pandemic clouds the issue, but we now have three data points: Black Widow $380 million, Shang-Chi $418 million, and predicted for Eternals $331 million (Forbes predicted today). You can adjust these upwards a bit if you like for COVID decrease (-15% mentioned earlier). Does this mean that the MCU has enough audience this moment that basically anything they release is guaranteed to be $300 to $400 million? This box office seems critic, and audience review proof, and that is a sizable dedicated fan base. Now most companies would love this box office for anything they put out, but how does that affect the MCU moving forward?

Edited November 7, 2021 by drotto

[Axelrod]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:57 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I disagree with your analysis of the Deviants in the film. Spoiler filled rebuttal below:

  Reveal hidden contents

Before I dig into the movie, the red herring-ness you ascribe to the Deviants is actually in line with the original Jack Kirby stories. In the original series, the Deviants are initially described to be the main adversary of the Eternals until we learn that the Fourth Host (where Celestials judge whether Earth shall live or die based on humanity's evolution) is the true threat to the Eternals and Earth.

As for the MCU Deviants, I don't feel they were red herrings the way you describe. In a way they were "red herrings" for the Eternals themselves as our heroes were unaware of the true nature of their presence on Earth. For the movie's story, we learn fairly early in the movie, by the half-way point I believe, that the emergence of a new Celestial is the reason for the return of the Deviants. So in that respect, the Deviants as any kind of red herring to the story goes away.

The Deviants are also important to the story for the following reasons:

1. The emergence of the Deviants is directly related to the emergence of the new Celestial. And it is the emergence of these Deviants that causes the Eternals to reunite. Without their emerging threat, there is no team for us to see on the big screen who collectively discover through Sersi the true threat of the emergence.

2. Because the Eternals believe the Deviants are the true threat, Ikaris is able to completely blame them for what happens to Ajak, even though the Deviants were physically responsible for what happens. So while they are adversaries in the film, Ikaris is able to use them as foils. He wouldn't have been able to come up with another excuse if the Deviants had not emerged.

3. Thena's madness, along with the resurrection of the Deviants, is also a sign of the emergence of the Celestial. Her final battle with Kro gives her a way to cure herself of her madness. 

4. In the present day, there are only three battles with Deviants: the beginning in London, the middle battle in the South American jungle, and on the volcano island in the finale. It's only during that first battle in London that we don't know yet that the emergence of a Celestial is the true threat to Earth. By the second battle, we already know that the Celestials are the larger threat. But we do discover in that battle that the Deviants can absorb Eternals energy to evolve making them an even bigger threat in addition to the larger one of the Celestials.

 

 

On 11/7/2021 at 2:27 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I also disagree with your complaint that the primary threat in the story is pushed aside. Spoiler filled rebuttal below (beware MAJOR SPOILERS):

  Reveal hidden contents

That's because the true threat to the Eternals (and maybe Earth) is the fracture of their family because of the divide over their allegiance to their creators.

The emergence of the Celestial as a threat guides every move of every Eternal (in the present day story) from the beginning to the end of the movie. It's why Ikaris misleads the other Eternals. It's why Ajak passed leadership of the Eternals to Sersi. It's why Sersi leads the search for the other scattered Eternals. It's why Phastos creates the Uni-Mind.

Yes, the numerous flashbacks do disrupt this part of the story, but as I wrote in an earlier post, what the flashbacks serve is to show why each Eternal reacts in different ways to the truth of their presence on Earth, which is important to the story and also important to defining who these characters are.

And in that "Marvelization" sense, it is the characters themselves that is the most important thing in the MCU, not the plot.

 

Spoiler

I can't speak to the way the Deviants are/were in the original comics, all I can speak to is the way they were used in this movie, which was as a means to the end of getting in some big fight scenes.  And that was about all. 

I don't remember them saying that the Deviants "returned" because of the imminent emergence of the Celestial.  I remember them saying that there were some Deviants frozen in the ice who had just recently thawed out.  Perhaps I missed something.  Even if I did, it doesn't seem to make much sense that the Deviants would "return" just in time to get destroyed with the rest of the planet.  What were they doing then?  Were they planning to stop the emergence?  Help it along?  I got no sense that the Deviants had a plan for anything except to be big scary monsters that get into some fights.  You are pointing out that it is the reappearance of the Deviants that causes the Eternals to get back together, which is true in this movie, but is also absolutely incidental for the larger story involving the Celestial.  They could have  brought the Eternals back together again in any number of different ways. Shoot, Ajak apparently just tells Ikaris about the coming emergence 500 years before it's supposed to happen.  

Also, you are explaining the plot of this movie as though there were no other way to tell the story - for example saying that, but for the Deviants, Ikaris would have had no one to blame for Ajak's death.  But that's not true at all.  It is what happened in this movie, but it did not have to happen that way.  That was the choice the writers/director/producers made.  

I feel like you are ret-conning Thena's madness also.  I don't recall it being tied to the Celestial emergence, or having anything to do with Deviants.  It was the result of (millions of?) years of mind-wiping and being reset.  Frankly, I thought it felt somewhat out of place in the larger story. I mean, I didn't hate it, and I gather that the comic character also suffered from some kind of madness (albeit for a different reason?) so maybe they felt like they needed to do something along those lines?  But I felt no real significance to the overall story going on there.  I also missed where you say she "cured" herself in the fight with Cro.  All I got was, she's in his clutches, she's about to be drained and then...she kills him.  Which begs the question what was the point of his having the abilty to steal Eternal powers to begin with?   He was one of the most - if not the most - anti-climactic villains in the entire history of the Marvel cinematic universe.

I'm also probably giving the movie more credit than it deserves when I talk about the Eternal family "fracturing" over what to do about the Celestial emergence.  Because it basically boils down to Ikaris vs. everyone else.  Yes, Sprite sides with him (for love), and Kingo abstains, but literally everyone else wants to stop it.  Again, I feel like this kind of undercut what the movie wanted to be about, turning it into something far simpler, and presumably easier for Marvel audiences to digest.  

 

[Bosco685]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, drotto said:

Early predictions are now saying a 70% or greater drop off for weekend two. This is in line with how most big movies are preforming during the pandemic. I also am seeing very divided opinions on this film.  I know I am a very small sample group, but outside of this forum, I do not know a single friend that has expressed any interest in this film.  I used to attend every MCU opening with a group of at least 8 to 12 people.  Hell, we even saw Solo as a group opening weekend. If you look past RT, Metacritic is showing a 6.6.  To be honest that sounds pretty fair.  

 

I do wonder if an interesting pattern is starting to emerge for MCU movies.  Are we finally seeing what the die hard, will always see a Marvel movie audience truly is?  I know the pandemic clouds the issue, but we now have three data points: Black Widow $380 million, Shang-Chi $418 million, and predicted for Eternals $331 million (Forbes predicted today). You can adjust these upwards a bit if you like for COVID decrease (-15% mentioned earlier). Does this mean that the MCU has enough audience this moment that basically anything they release is guaranteed to be $300 to $400 million? This box office seems critic, and audience review proof, and that is a sizable dedicated fan base. Now most companies would love this box office for anything they put out, but how does that affect the MCU moving forward?

Unlike those that troll non-MCU films and TV shows, I really do want all these productions to succeed and bring us all what we desire.

But like I noted early on, there is a hardcore base within the MCU that loves to hate everything not Marvel Studios which leads to the horrible atmosphere that follows in their wake. So if any misstep happens their first response is to do whatever to counter this versus allowing the MCU to transcend naturally through trial and error. Sure, it is super to see a franchise that has held together so consistently. But proclaiming this has been all 'PERFECT' and 'SPOTLESS' is not completely reality. Including the Disney+ shows that forced themes and anyone questioning the approach is a hater, racist or otherwise.

I like that the Eternals director purposely worked to break a steady mold. I like what I am hearing now with Hawkeye (I hope it is true). But there may be some growing pains, including hardcore MCUers having to change their views and ease into this new approach.

[ExNihilo]

Spoiler question below.

Spoiler

Can we take a moment to speculate what the future holds for these characters?  In particular, the ones in the post-credits?  First, I'll admit I'm not a fan of Pip the Troll being voiced by Patton Oswalt.  He always struck me as a more gruff personality, like a grumpy Danny Devito.  Second, given that the characters history is closely intertwined with another upcoming character, Adam Warlock, and we already have other elements of the Infinity Watch (Drax, Gamora), I wonder if their story will get picked up in GotG3.  Third, I'm not quite sold on the introduction of Starfox.  He's a minor character in the comics and to my knowledge hasn't done anything significant other than be Thanos' brother.  Maybe I'm biased because I'd like the universe to head in the direction of Hickman's Secret Wars and I just don't see Starfox being involved in that in any ways.  Lastly, not sure what Blade is doing keeping tabs on the Ebony Blade.

Also, with the introductions of the Celestials, I'd have no problem if Galactus was retconned as some sort of counterpoint to Arishem.  Not sure how you could weave world eating into that, but I'm sure someone could get paid the big bucks at Marvel to figure that out.  Where as Arishem created a host of beings to do his/her work, Galactus determined that a singular herald would be easier to control (thus illustrating the difference in approach and their being a yin/yang sort of relationship).  Also, this would then open the door to the Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, my favorite character the Silver Surfer, and of course, pave the way for the aforementioned Secret Wars plot.  Just my 

EDIT: also, if we could get Emilia Clarke in the next film and have a mini Game of Thrones reunion scene, that'd be great.

EDIT 2: completely forgot, but I like that DC is now canon in the MCU.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by ExNihilo

[drotto]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:13 PM, Bosco685 said:

Unlike those that troll non-MCU films and TV shows, I really do want all these productions to succeed and bring us all what we desire.

But like I noted early on, there is a hardcore base within the MCU that loves to hate everything not Marvel Studios which leads to the horrible atmosphere that follows in their wake. So if any misstep happens their first response is to do whatever to counter this versus allowing the MCU to transcend naturally through trial and error. Sure, it is super to see a franchise that has held together so consistently. But proclaiming this has been all 'PERFECT' and 'SPOTLESS' is not completely reality. Including the Disney+ shows that forced themes and anyone questioning the approach is a hater, racist or otherwise.

I like that the Eternals director purposely worked to break a steady mold. I like what I am hearing now with Hawkeye (I hope it is true). But there may be some growing pains, including hardcore MCUers having to change their views and ease into this new approach.

I have seen to many fandoms where the hardcore fans eventually poison that same franchises chances for sustained and wider acceptance. The MCU has done a remarkable job of avoiding this so far. The MCU has been a juggernaut, but post Endgame, I think it is becoming clear that there may be some missteps as they try to find a continued and possibly new narrative voice moving forward. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by drotto

[Jaydogrules]

Maybe they should have released this on home video at the same time again like they did with Black Widow so they could say that it made an "extra." $150MM there too. 

-J.

[Chaos_in_Canada]

“Review proof, calendar proof and always a fan favorite, the films of the MCU are undeniably among the most appealing to movie fans around the world who have for the past 13 years shown their loyalty to this incredibly popular series of films,” said Paul Dergarabedian, senior media analyst at Comscore. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/marvels-eternals-tallies-a-71-million-opening-at-domestic-box-office.html

[drotto]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:31 PM, Bosco685 said:

To be fair, I think he was saying the film is somewhat review proof, that despite negative reviews still had respectable Box Office.

[Bosco685]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:26 PM, Chaos_in_Canada said:

“Review proof, calendar proof and always a fan favorite, the films of the MCU are undeniably among the most appealing to movie fans around the world who have for the past 13 years shown their loyalty to this incredibly popular series of films,” said Paul Dergarabedian, senior media analyst at Comscore. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/marvels-eternals-tallies-a-71-million-opening-at-domestic-box-office.html

That didn't age well

[Bosco685]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:34 PM, drotto said:

To be fair, I think he was saying the film is somewhat review proof, that despite negative reviews still had respectable Box Office.

Oh that's for sure. As has been noted to ensure the more hardcore and troubling side of the MCU is clear, there are those that will show up to conventions to prove their loyalty to cast members. And this is a VERY TINY example of what is out there.

Which is why Samuel L. Jackson and Don Cheadle have called this behavior out.

Samuel L. Jackson Wants Fans to "Get Past the Avengers and Marvel Sh*t"

 

[Gatsby77]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:34 PM, drotto said:

To be fair, I think he was saying the film is somewhat review proof, that despite negative reviews still had respectable Box Office.

What Bosco said.

Hard to spin a "B" Cinemascore (which is audience reviews from those who have seen the films).

I mean, "just a tad better than Howard the Duck or Punisher War Zone" - isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Gatsby77

[Bosco685]

Quote

Eternals' director Chloé Zhao has confirmed that the take on Superman in Zack Snyder's Man of Steel was a big inspiration for Richard Madden's Ikaris.

 

As reported by THR, Zhao was speaking to Film Actu when she revealed that Zack Snyder's version of Superman really impacted her as Snyder "approached this myth in an authentic and very real way."

 

"Of all the modern interpretations of Superman, Zack Snyder’s Man of Steel inspired me the most because he approached this myth in an authentic and very real way… this film left a strong impression on me," Zhao said.

[MattTheDuck]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:43 PM, Gatsby77 said:

What Bosco said.

Hard to spin a "B" Cinemascore (which is audience reviews from those who have seen the films).

I mean, "just a tad better than Howard the Duck or Punisher War Zone" - isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

I'm not sure any of this matters.  In most instances, making a "bad" movie can kill careers, franchises and so forth.  If all those giving this movie bad reviews refuse to see Marvel movies in the future, that would be significant.  The fact I didn't like "Eternals" won't stop me from seeing every 2022 Marvel release on the first weekend as I will offerings from many others.  But if Marvel learns from how this movie went so wrong, it could end up strengthening the future storytelling.  With many ways to monitize these movies and characters beyond the first-run theater box office, "failure" takes on a completely different meaning.

[paperheart]

On 11/7/2021 at 12:48 PM, drotto said:

Early predictions are now saying a 70% or greater drop off for weekend two. This is in line with how most big movies are preforming during the pandemic. I also am seeing very divided opinions on this film.  I know I am a very small sample group, but outside of this forum, I do not know a single friend that has expressed any interest in this film.  I used to attend every MCU opening with a group of at least 8 to 12 people.  Hell, we even saw Solo as a group opening weekend. If you look past RT, Metacritic is showing a 6.6.  To be honest that sounds pretty fair.  

 

I do wonder if an interesting pattern is starting to emerge for MCU movies.  Are we finally seeing what the die hard, will always see a Marvel movie audience truly is?  I know the pandemic clouds the issue, but we now have three data points: Black Widow $380 million, Shang-Chi $418 million, and predicted for Eternals $331 million (Forbes predicted today). You can adjust these upwards a bit if you like for COVID decrease (-15% mentioned earlier). Does this mean that the MCU has enough audience this moment that basically anything they release is guaranteed to be $300 to $400 million? This box office seems critic, and audience review proof, and that is a sizable dedicated fan base. Now most companies would love this box office for anything they put out, but how does that affect the MCU moving forward?

that's his falls off the cliff like BvS #, a terrible hold like BW gets it to $400MM.  If you see these numbers with Thor & Dr. Strange, then there's a real problem. Predicting the end of the MCU on 3 movies nobody asked for with BO influenced by the pandemic is a stretch.

[drotto]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:58 PM, paperheart said:

that's his falls off the cliff like BvS #, a terrible hold like BW gets it to $400MM.  If you see these numbers with Thor & Dr. Strange, then there's a real problem. Predicting the end of the MCU on 3 movies nobody asked for with BO influenced by the pandemic is a stretch.

They can only hope enough superfans will want to see this one 100 plus times.

[William-James88]

For the Thanos question, I get it. The answer is no. Neither him nor his brother are robots. They are bit related to the eternals festired in the film. It just so happens that his brother is slightly similar looking to one of the eternals but that's just coincidence, if you'd even call it that.

[Bosco685]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:55 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I'm not sure any of this matters.  In most instances, making a "bad" movie can kill careers, franchises and so forth.  If all those giving this movie bad reviews refuse to see Marvel movies in the future, that would be significant.  The fact I didn't like "Eternals" won't stop me from seeing every 2022 Marvel release on the first weekend as I will offerings from many others.  But if Marvel learns from how this movie went so wrong, it could end up strengthening the future storytelling.  With many ways to monitize these movies and characters beyond the first-run theater box office, "failure" takes on a completely different meaning.

Exactly! Hiding the MCU from learning by throwing our bank accounts at Disney would be a missed opportunity. I can't see someone like Feige allowing that. Even those rushing in on Week One have spoken, no matter the initial financial reaction (which again missed the estimated target).

This never has happened ever across 25 films previously. Nor the strong negative RT reaction. So with both metrics Marvel Studios will think through how best to take in the learnings. WOM Marketing is a large part of these films flaming up with general audience excitement for weeks upon weeks.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Bosco685

[William-James88]

I think those opening weekend numbers are pretty good. And they prove this film is review proof. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/7/2021 at 5:23 PM, William-James88 said:

I think those opening weekend numbers are pretty good. And they prove this film is review proof. 

No offense...data point: Opening Weekend. The weeks ahead will be what to gauge on how that WOM score impacts general audience decisions.