Disney+'s WandaVision (2020) 6 6

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

How about unsolicited attacks on Brie Larson and Captain Marvel, before these same people even saw the movie, as a sickness? THAT is a sickness.

There is a small but stubborn legion of hate out there for Brie Larson and Captain Marvel that still exists along with small factions of ComicsGate disciples, much like the First Order from Star Wars. It's gross, but it's out there. A close relative of mine was one of these haters who had to force himself to see Captain Marvel for my sake even though he's a MCU fan. I'm like, "dude, why? You don't even know who Captain Marvel is! (knows nothing about the comics)" He replies with something like "Because she said this  and that and the internet told me to blah blah blah." Many, like said relative, put too much hope and faith in the wrong places of the internet. That's why this country is in the shape it's in right now.

I don't mind countering Captain Marvel hate and dislike wherever it rises.

Yadda, yadda, yadda...

You go on and on about OTHER SITES/people that did these things and then attempt to attribute this to people here. Some people did not care for either Brie Larson's performance or -script design for Captain Marvel. You taking it as a sexist attack is your issue seeing the entire 'CAPTAIN MARVEL didn't work for me' population similarly.

That's not a healthy mindset if you can't distinguish the difference between someone that didn't care for a portrayal and someone that truly is a misogynist. You do realize there is a difference, right?

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Comicopolis said:

I'm not sure if you want to go down this rabbit hole on a comic book forum.

Bingo!

[TupennyConan]

2 minutes ago, Comicopolis said:

I'm not sure if you want to go down this rabbit hole on a comic book forum.

I read the post 2x due to surprise, just to confirm the same.

[Comicopolis]

Can we make every thread about Captain Marvel?

I enjoyed the film, by the way.

[fantastic_four]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Especially someone like Magneto is going to embrace a super-powered mutant to support his cause versus turning them away because they weren't born with their powers.

For most of my life Chris Claremont has been my favorite X-Men author, but the current X-Men storyline by Jonathan Hickman is probably the finest writing the team has ever had.  In it Xavier uses the mutant Krakoa--the living island from Giant-Size X-Men #1--to establish a new country for mutantkind to live in so that they aren't scorned by human society.  Xavier accepts mutates onto Krakoa.  I thought perhaps Magneto wouldn't, but I believe Hickman had Magneto accept them, too.  I haven't read whether or not he did it all along or was later convinced to, but the ideas are extremely compelling.  I'm really loving the House of X/Powers of X storyline, possibly even more than anything in Claremont's run, but for now I just like them both and am unsure which is the better X-author.

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Let's relate it to real society. 

Spoiler

Are you familiar with Rachel Dolezal, the white lady who made her skin as dark as she could and identified as African-American, telling people she was one when she wasn't?  She actually got to the point where she was the leader of an NAACP chapter before the press outed her nationally.  Let's go with the hypothetical that she actually altered her genetic structure to make it 99.999% similar to the average genome of an African, but she did it as an adult after she had avoided growing up as an African-American.  How accepted by American society do you anticipate she would be?  

 

Just for both our sakes, let's just stick to a simpler scenario.

It's not the same as you outlined (no offense meant to you). A mutant becomes this way either due to birth (internal influences) or other source (external influences). And with the latter, many times it is outside their control when it happens if they are experimented on. So someone like Magneto would probably see them as kin fighting the same causes of being misunderstood and ostracized for nothing more than their powers and/or appearance.

See where they could relate here (without any dangerous forum topics)?

[fantastic_four]

6 minutes ago, Comicopolis said:

10 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Let's relate it to real society.  Are you familiar with Rachel Dolezal, the white lady who made her skin as dark as she could and identified as African-American, telling people she was one when she wasn't?  She actually got to the point where she was the leader of an NAACP chapter before the press outed her nationally.  Let's go with the hypothetical that she actually altered her genetic structure to make it 99.999% similar to the average genome of an African, but she did it as an adult after she had avoided growing up as an African-American.  How accepted by American society do you anticipate she would be?  

I'm not sure if you want to go down this rabbit hole on a comic book forum.

I anticipate I'd have to ignore 80% of the potential responses to any discussion around the idea, but I can't see at all that it isn't an identical parallel to mutates versus mutants.

[jsilverjanet]

10 minutes ago, Comicopolis said:

I'm not sure if you want to go down this rabbit hole on a comic book forum.

These conversations are best in the WC

[Comicopolis]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

I anticipate I'd have to ignore 80% of the potential responses to any discussion around the idea, but I can't see at all that it isn't an identical parallel to mutates versus mutants.

Go for it.

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

For most of my life Chris Claremont has been my favorite X-Men author, but the current X-Men storyline by Jonathan Hickman is probably the finest writing the team has ever had.  In it Xavier uses the mutant Krakoa--the living island from Giant-Size X-Men #1--to establish a new country for mutantkind to live in so that they aren't scorned by human society.  Xavier accepts mutates onto Krakoa.  I thought perhaps Magneto wouldn't, but I believe Hickman had Magneto accept them, too.  I haven't read whether or not he did it all along or was later convinced to, but the ideas are extremely compelling.  I'm really loving the House of X/Powers of X storyline, possibly even more than anything in Claremont's run, but for now I just like them both and am unsure which is the better X-author.

This is really good to know. I have not read modern X-Men. I like the approach, as in the end they either were born for transitioned into a mutant. Very cool!

[fantastic_four]

11 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

So someone like Magneto would probably see them as kin fighting the same causes of being misunderstood and ostracized for nothing more than their powers and/or appearance.

Or he could be written to not see them as kin because they didn't suffer the same indignities he did.  I suspect the majority of homosuperior would reject mutates because they're posers/wannabes.  Human society tends in that direction, so I would expect the same from homosuperior.

Edited February 23, 2021 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

This is really good to know. I have not read modern X-Men. I like the approach, as in the end they either were born for transitioned into a mutant. Very cool!

It's enlightened, and I think ideal...but in my experience at minimum half of people aren't so enlightened, and I think I'm being generous and it's more around two-thirds to three-quarters who aren't.  I find it more likely that homosuperior in general would shun mutates.

In "House of X" Xavier and Magneto only allow mutants and mutates to live on Krakoa.  If a human wants to live there they have to intentionally become a mutate somehow.

Edited February 23, 2021 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Or he could be written to not see them as kin because they didn't suffer the same indignities he did.  I suspect the majority of superior would reject mutates because they're posers/wannabes.  Human society tends in that direction, so I would expect the same from superior.

I could see either way happening, depending on what Feige wants the MCU story to be concerning both. But I'd rather see them as friends than foes to make it interesting.

[fantastic_four]

14 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

17 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Or he could be written to not see them as kin because they didn't suffer the same indignities he did.  I suspect the majority of superior would reject mutates because they're posers/wannabes.  Human society tends in that direction, so I would expect the same from superior.

I could see either way happening, depending on what Feige wants the MCU story to be concerning both. But I'd rather see them as friends than foes to make it interesting.

To loop back to the topic--many Krakoans call Scarlet Witch "The Pretender" because she told people she was a mutant when it was later revealed she was a mutate created by High Evolutionary during Ike Perlman's 2014 ret-con of Wanda and Pietro to no longer be mutants in his effort to starve all of the properties Fox owned the film rights to.  That's actually an un-ret-conning of the 1970s ret-con of them both being mutants and Magneto being their father, because Stan Lee's story had Wanda and Pietro being mutated by High Evolutionary after they were born.  Even though it happened at birth many Krakoan mutants look down on her for what to them was a lie, hence the derogatory nickname.  THAT'S what I would expect based upon the way humans look at genetic differences in real society, and I think it's a fine idea by Hickman.

Edited February 23, 2021 by fantastic_four

[@therealsilvermane]

42 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Some people did not care for either Brie Larson's performance or ----script design for Captain Marvel.

Look, I'll keep this response brief because I think the talk should be about WandaVision and its implications even though Captain Marvel is either mentioned or heard in half the series' shows so far unlike any other Avenger besides Wanda or Vision.

Somebody doesn't like the story, fine. Somebody doesn't care about the character, fine. I thought I was being very reasoned and logical with my response to herc2000 the other day about his preference for Monica as CM. But if someone uses Brie Larson's so-called "wooden acting" as criticism, then I call BS. Her acting, especially for what the role called for, was just fine and not "bad" enough that it needs to be called out as a reason for CM not being a "good" MCU movie. When I see "but her wooden acting!" I immediately see that for what it is, an anti-Captain Marvel/Brie Larson agenda. And I respond accordingly without trying to get too mad about it.

Brie Larson playing a character with amnesia in CM was charming and funny in the role and anything but wooden. In fact, I think she's the only actor in a major role in a MCU movie I've actually seen shed a real tear. Full stop.

Edited February 23, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

10 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

To loop back to the topic--many Krakoans call Scarlet Witch "The Pretender" because she told people she was a mutant when it was later revealed she was a mutate created by High Evolutionary during Ike Perlman's 2014 ret-con of Wanda and Pietro to no longer be mutants in his effort to starve all of the properties Fox owned the film rights to.  That's actually an un-ret-conning of the 1970s ret-con of them both being mutants and Magneto being their father, because Stan Lee's story had Wanda and Pietro being mutated by High Evolutionary after they were born.  Even though it happened at birth many Krakoan mutants look down on her for what to them was a lie, hence the derogatory nickname.  THAT'S what I would expect based upon the way humans look at genetic differences in real society, and I think it's a fine idea by Hickman.

Thank you for all the details. Very interesting!

It sounds like even Marvel lore went back and forth on the situation going into modern times. But then pulled back some to distinguish between the two.

[fantastic_four]

14 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

It sounds like even Marvel lore went back and forth on the situation going into modern times. But then pulled back some to distinguish between the two.

It's the nature of serial fiction being written over a long period of time by dozens upon dozens of authors.  Eventually one ret-cons ideas from previous authors unless an editor-in-chief prevents them from doing it.  For the MCU Feige is the editor-in-chief, and he's tasked with ultimately making sense of things the comics mucked up over the decades.  So far he's done an incredibly great job, and while I can't place him above or even equal to the likes of Lee or Kirby since he's not writing creatively to anywhere near the extent that they did, for the superhero film world he's pretty close to their level of achievement.  I've never respected ANY film producer more than that guy, and for whatever reason he's a one of one--although I hope he inspires a lot more people like him in the coming decades.

I don't know when Feige will retire, but I can only pray he's tutoring a stable of people to take his place.  Nobody has played editor-in-chief better than him with film-based superhero lore.  Kathleen Kennedy tries to do it with Star Wars, but she's just not very good at it.  I wish they'd give the job to Dave Filoni, who could just report to Kennedy.  She's a fine, talented producer, she's just not skilled at keeping the content for an expansive, serial fictional world consistent and compelling.  I don't know anything about her personal interests, but Feige is a lifelong comics nerd like us and that's an essential element for why he can do it so well.

Edited February 23, 2021 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Look, I'll keep this response brief because I think the talk should be about WandaVision and its implications even though Captain Marvel is either mentioned or heard in half the series' shows so far unlike any other Avenger besides Wanda or Vision.

Somebody doesn't like the story, fine. Somebody doesn't care about the character, fine. I thought I was being very reasoned and logical with my response to herc2000 the other day about his preference for Monica as CM. But if someone uses Brie Larson's so-called "wooden acting" as criticism, then I call BS. Her acting, especially for what the role called for, was just fine and not "bad" enough that it needs to be called out as a reason for CM not being a "good" MCU movie. When I see "but her wooden acting!" I immediately see that for what it is, an anti-Captain Marvel/Brie Larson agenda. And I respond accordingly without trying to get too mad about it.

Brie Larson playing a character with amnesia in CM was charming and funny in the role and anything but wooden. In fact, I think she's the only actor in a major role in a MCU movie I've actually seen shed a real tear. Full stop.

In your mind. In reality, you may have the same amnesia forgetting all the excitement you bring along just because someone either 1) didn't like the Captain Marvel movie or 2) didn't like Brie Larson's performance. Not everyone is going to appreciate these things the way we would like.

As far as ONLY Brie Larson being the only actor to shed a tear in her role, you forget other actor contributions. Thor tears up when Loki dies - which you see streaming down his cheek.

 

[@therealsilvermane]

21 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

In your mind. In reality, you may have the same amnesia forgetting all the excitement you bring along just because someone either 1) didn't like the Captain Marvel movie or 2) didn't like Brie Larson's performance. Not everyone is going to appreciate these things the way we would like.

As far as ONLY Brie Larson being the only actor to shed a tear in her role, you forget other actor contributions. Thor tears up when Loki dies - which you see streaming down his cheek.

 

I didn't see Thor's eyes well up with tears or see one stream down his cheek. But Carol though...

Okay, on a third look, Chris Hemsworth's eyes do indeed well up with tears, but you know, it's a pretty emotional scene his brother dying and all. Let's give Brie a death of a best friend scene and see what happens. Chris Hemsworth is a fine actor and worthy of Mjolnir...

Edited February 23, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I didn't see Thor's eyes well up with tears or see one stream down his cheek. But Carol though...

 

Unfortunately attempting a 'only Brie cried' debate is just as sad as accusing fellow board members of being misogynists because they don't like a movie or actor performance that you do.

You are overly-fanatical on the topic. To the point you can't help but pounce if someone did not care for Captain Marvel. That's not a healthy mental state.