Pressing and Microchamber Paper 1 1

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, MadJimJaspers said:

I explained my definition of "tanning" as transfer staining. Youre just repeating what I said two pages ago.

I was trying to be as clear and comprehensive as possible so that there were no misunderstandings.

1 hour ago, MadJimJaspers said:

It might be common to you and your pressed issues. Every dealer might like everyone to think its common. 

You obviously have some sort of personal axe to grind but what you're saying doesn't have any merit nor do you have any proof to support it.

If you've handled lots of vintage comics (as many dealers AND collectors that have will both attest) transfer staining is extremely common on old comics even on books that have never been pressed.

Comic books were meant to be thrown out and were printed on the cheapest materials possible and for that reason, cheap inks were used. It's because those cheap inks were used that they separate and cause the transfer stain.

Again, it has nothing to do with pressing. And if it does, you haven't shown it with your examples.

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, MadJimJaspers said:

I explained my definition of "tanning" as transfer staining. Youre just repeating what I said two pages ago. It might be common to you and your pressed issues. Every dealer might like everyone to think its common. 

MadJim, can you show us before and after examples of a book that was pressed by an experienced presser that developed transfer staining as a result?

I've had hundreds of books pressed from every era and none developed transfer staining or frankly any damage or deterioration from pressing.

[mattn792]

4 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

MadJim, can you show us before and after examples of a book that was pressed by an experienced presser that developed transfer staining as a result?

I've had hundreds of books pressed from every era and none developed transfer staining or frankly any damage or deterioration from pressing.

Of course he can’t. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 5/25/2019 at 6:20 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

1) Cover shrinkage. If you look many pressed books, you'll see a thin line of newsprint peeking out past the edge of the cover. It's normal to see a little bit at the very top of the cover (probably from the cutting process), but if you can see white all along the edge of the cover, it's a dead giveaway that the book has been pressed. It is more noticeable when a presser is aggressive with temperature and humidity in order to reduce cycle time.

What happens if the cover expands...? You are aware that covers can expand as well, right?

If you're dealing with Silver Age, into early Bronze, you've also got about a 1/16" to 1/8" overflash at the top of the cover. On high grade books with tight staples, you shouldn't expect to see interior pages at the top. The right side, however, would be much more common, due to the tolerances of the cutters at Sparta.

On 5/25/2019 at 6:20 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

2) There will frequently be extra stress lines around the staples. This become apparent when you look at before and after pictures of the book.

Not if pressed properly.

On 5/25/2019 at 6:20 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

3) In the case of GA books, it's not unusual for pressing to blow out (split) the spine.

Not if pressed properly. 

On 5/25/2019 at 6:20 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

4) Books have lost pieces around the edge or at the corners due to pressing. I'm not sure why this happens. Maybe bits of paper stick to the pressing machine because the paper that's placed between the press and the comic isn't seated properly, and the edge of the cover is actually contacting the press itself?

Books should never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, come in contact with the platen, the heated metal plate of the press.

Sounds like you've only dealt with inexperienced pressers.

[jimbo_7071]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Books should never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, come in contact with the platen, the heated metal plate of the press.

Sounds like you've only dealt with inexperienced pressers.

I haven't dealt with any pressers. I've found "before" pictures of many pressed books (mainly by searching the the Heritage archives). I remember a Captain America Comics #70 that retained its (8.0?) grade after pressing despite having a big chunk out of the edge of the back cover. I can only assume that the book contacted the platen (as you called it) because the release paper was out of position.

[VintageComics]

12 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I can only assume that the book contacted the platen (as you called it) because the release paper was out of position.

Books are fragile and pieces fall off old books all the time.

It's more likely that someone either mishandled the book and a fragile piece flaked off (or got clipped it on a Mylar or bag and board) than it is that the piece fell off from pressing.

[jimbo_7071]

7 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Books are fragile and pieces fall off old books all the time.

It's more likely that someone either mishandled the book and a fragile piece flaked off (or got clipped it on a Mylar or bag and board) than it is that the piece fell off from pressing.

The book was high grade and didn't show any signs of wear or fragility in the before picture. A Mylar will make a fairly clean cut into the book, and this missing chunk didn't look like it could have been caused by a Mylar—but only the person who caused the damage would know for sure, and I don't know who owned the book. Miraculously, CGC didn't seem to deduct any points for the missing chunk, which makes me suspect that the damage occurred at CCS.

The extra handling that books incur during the pressing process is another argument against pressing, however, Any extra handling puts books at risk of additional damage.

[VintageComics]

4 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

The book was high grade and didn't show any signs of wear or fragility in the before picture. A Mylar will make a fairly clean cut into the book, and this missing chunk didn't look like it could have been caused by a Mylar—but only the person who caused the damage would know for sure, and I don't know who owned the book. Miraculously, CGC didn't seem to deduct any points for the missing chunk, which makes me suspect that the damage occurred at CCS.

The extra handling that books incur during the pressing process is another argument against pressing, however, Any extra handling puts books at risk of additional damage.

But you're making wild assumptions without any facts.

You're stating that the reason the piece is missing on the 'after' picture is because (and let me quote you exactly):

12 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I can only assume that the book contacted the platen (as you called it) because the release paper was out of position.

Meanwhile, you have no idea what happened. All you're doing is guess and in that guess throwing the presser under the bus.

You don't even know who the presser was but assume it was CCS because you assume they gave the book a gift grade to compensate for a mistake.

The reality is that pieces fall off books all the time.

And if the book was improved structurally and yet sustained a chip somehow, it is possible for the grade to stay the same. I have seen 8.0 books with chips more than once.

[RockMyAmadeus]

14 hours ago, mattn792 said:

Of course he can’t. 

There are some wild theories out there, by people who clearly have never actually pressed books before, or don't really understand the biology of wood pulp, or the chemistry of reactions with deteriorating newsprint and printer ink.

Transfer stains happen over decades, not the minutes or hours a book sits in a press. It's not a winepress, nor is it an olive press; the amount of pressure needed to extract ambient moisture from interior pages would completely destroy the book long before any detectable moisture 

Here's what happens when you apply extreme pressure to paper:

You don't get any (detectable) moisture release, but you do change the structure of the paper by squashing all the wood pulp cells flat. The structure of the paper completely changes, becoming hard, brittle, and easily broken. You would think, with that kind of pressure, there'd be some detectable moisture...but there isn't.

So, the pressure of a press isn't "squashing" water (or other fluid) out of the paper fibers of the interior pages. The "halo" that you see is the byproduct of the slow chemical reaction of the ink and the acid in the newsprint leeching out over long periods of time onto the front cover. It's why the halo IS a halo: the reaction doesn't occur where there is no ink. If it was moisture in the pages staining the covers, it would not be confined to the inked areas, nor would its borders be as soft and graduated (ie, lacking a hard "tide line") as it is.

If it was staining caused by moisture released during the pressing process, it wouldn't be anywhere as uniform as it is. The inks are unstable...over time...but they're not anywhere near that unstable that the introduction of moisture will cause them to "run" or "leech." Neither is the ambient moisture in the paper fibers anywhere near enough to stain the inside front cover.

The paper Marvel printed on at this point was just a step or two above brown napkin paper, so it's no surprise that the pages, inks, and interior covers would chemically react over a long period of time, under the right conditions. 

[mattn792]

[Naphtha]

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There are some wild theories out there, by people who clearly have never actually pressed books before, or don't really understand the biology of wood pulp, or the chemistry of reactions with deteriorating newsprint and printer ink.

Transfer stains happen over decades, not the minutes or hours a book sits in a press. It's not a winepress, nor is it an olive press; the amount of pressure needed to extract ambient moisture from interior pages would completely destroy the book long before any detectable moisture 

Here's what happens when you apply extreme pressure to paper:

You don't get any (detectable) moisture release, but you do change the structure of the paper by squashing all the wood pulp cells flat. The structure of the paper completely changes, becoming hard, brittle, and easily broken. You would think, with that kind of pressure, there'd be some detectable moisture...but there isn't.

So, the pressure of a press isn't "squashing" water (or other fluid) out of the paper fibers of the interior pages. The "halo" that you see is the byproduct of the slow chemical reaction of the ink and the acid in the newsprint leeching out over long periods of time onto the front cover. It's why the halo IS a halo: the reaction doesn't occur where there is no ink. If it was moisture in the pages staining the covers, it would not be confined to the inked areas, nor would its borders be as soft and graduated (ie, lacking a hard "tide line") as it is.

If it was staining caused by moisture released during the pressing process, it wouldn't be anywhere as uniform as it is. The inks are unstable...over time...but they're not anywhere near that unstable that the introduction of moisture will cause them to "run" or "leech." Neither is the ambient moisture in the paper fibers anywhere near enough to stain the inside front cover.

The paper Marvel printed on at this point was just a step or two above brown napkin paper, so it's no surprise that the pages, inks, and interior covers would chemically react over a long period of time, under the right conditions. 

Without quoting your entire post, thank you. This explains a lot that I didn't understand.

I will still say that I have seen this accelerated in pressing. I have submitted multiple books with stark white covers, only to return with the "leech" described. I also note certain dealers on the market (none of which are discussing this issue here), who have a plethora of slabbed issues that visibly show serious "halo" to the same degree. It is therefore my theory that these dealers are using the same presser and using the same wrong technique.

You can argue that an experienced presser would never cause this, and I might agree, although it would be easier to prove that pressing causes damage than to make a blanket statement that pressing does not. For every experienced presser, there are dozens of inexperienced ones. If your statement that the press causes a change in the physical structure of the pulp paper, than wouldn't it be possible that this change in physical structure might also cause a physical change in the aesthetic appearance?

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, MadJimJaspers said:

If your statement that the press causes a change in the physical structure of the pulp paper,

No. That was the point I was making in the earlier post: pressing DOES NOT change the physical structure of the paper. It "rearranges" the pulp fiber, yes, but it does not alter the basic structure of the material (for that, you would need pressure far, far in excess of what a dry mount press is capable.)

7 minutes ago, MadJimJaspers said:

than wouldn't it be possible that this change in physical structure might also cause a physical change in the aesthetic appearance?

I think you may have convinced yourself of something that isn't actually happening. Believe me, it's easy to do. I hi-res scan a good chunk of the books I press beforehand, because I want to make absolutely sure that I'm not introducing defects in the process. It's ultra, ultra, ULTRA easy to convince yourself that something you did caused a particular defect...until you see that it existed in the scan before you put it in the press.

These "halo" effects take place over years, not minutes or hours. A press doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with it. Now, you CAN create or exacerbate tanning...but that would require temperatures far in excess of what is necessary to work with the book, and would not result in the "halo" effect you see above. The effect you see is a result of chemical interaction between ink and acidic paper over time, not physical interaction between cover and interior pages.

I've done multiple experiments with paper and temperature, tearing off pieces and pages out of books, and keeping those as my controls, while pressing the rest of those books for significant amounts of time at high temps (200° F and up), and it does take quite a bit to start changing the quality of the paper.

[Naphtha]

52 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I think you may have convinced yourself of something that isn't actually happening. Believe me, it's easy to do. I hi-res scan a good chunk of the books I press beforehand, because I want to make absolutely sure that I'm not introducing defects in the process. It's ultra, ultra, ULTRA easy to convince yourself that something you did caused a particular defect...until you see that it existed in the scan before you put it in the press.

Not necessarily convinced myself, I've just never spoken on it in detail with another person. Hence the purpose of the thread. Have you used the same presser for all your issues?

57 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No. That was the point I was making in the earlier post: pressing DOES NOT change the physical structure of the paper. It "rearranges" the pulp fiber, yes, but it does not alter the basic structure of the material (for that, you would need pressure far, far in excess of what a dry mount press is capable.)

Can you explain rearranging without physical changes?